Tyrion & Shae

[Cas Stark]

Urban middle class then. It's still not the level of luxury that someone in her position would expect for being the Hand's mistress. My point isn't to compare her role to a camp follower, but to compare her role to the role that she expected when she took this job.

It's kind of like if Apple called me to work as a software developer, and I had to move across my country to their headquarters, hundreds of miles away. And when I got there, they let me work there for a month then all of a sudden said they were suspending my salary, taking my house, and sending me to work as a maid for one of the CEO's friends for minimum wage. They can have great reasons for doing this, but for me it would be jarring and frightening.

Again, I'm not trying to demonize Tyrion here, I'm just saying that from Shae's perspective suddenly having her pay cut off indefinitely while still being expected to perform must have been frustrating and annoying at best. Tyrion never asks this of anyone else. Can you imagine him telling Bronn, "Hey, I need you to return all the money I paid you, but I need you to go out and stab Stannis in the face while archers try their best to turn you into a pincushion. I swear I'll make it up to you!"

Bronn wasn't acting like an unreasonable dumbass, making unrealistic demands and generally not listening to advice meant to safeguard his life.

I can only see the reason for purposely excluding where Shae came from out of the equation is to make Tyrion's action seem worse. I have no problem with his actions until he kills her.

She is greedy, short sighted, selfish, mean, cruel, a liar. There is nothing to like about Shae as she is written.

[Mad Monkey]

Bronn wasn't acting like an unreasonable dumbass, making unrealistic demands and generally not listening to advice meant to safeguard his life.

Amazing.

It's like I've been speaking in tongues.

I totally get why Tyrion took away Shae's things.

I am saying that from Shae's perspective she has been stripped of her payment for services but is still being expected to provide those services. Are there good reasons why this happened? Of course. Would that make Shae feel better? Of course not! No one would put up with that.

[WeddinGuest]

I don't think she approached her. Cercei had all of Sansa and Tyron's questioned.

Cercei operates in one of two ways, promises or threats. I think she promised Shae some things in exchange for her lies. Clearly, IMO, she didn't threaten her, bc as you say, Shae isn't stupid, so I don't think she would be dumb enough to go ask Cercei for gold and jewels if Cercei had been threatening her. I even somewhat understand her agreeing to lie to get money, she is a whore, that's what they do.

BUT, I can't fault Tyrion for wanting to kill her after she lied about what he said and did, and basically was one of the key factors in him getting convicted (and thus demanding a trial by combat). Especially when she called him "her giant", when the last time he heard that, he was being laughed at by everyone that he knew. As someone said in an earlier comment, that was the final straw.

She lied, schemed, and manipulated her way into getting rich, all the while breaking the heart of Tyrion, who loved her, and she got what she deserved. She tried to play the game, and when you play, you win or you die. She died. Good Riddance

I agree with those who have stated that Tyrion likely wouldn't have killed Shae if she hadn't called him "my giant", and that the killing was not premeditated, but a crime of passion. To me that does mitigate it a little.

The problem (well, one of the problems) I have with Tyrion killing Shae is that the "final straw" for him was NOT her "betrayal" or perjury. It was how she set him up to be laughed at by everyone that she knew.

Okay, so she humiliated him when it wasn't really necessary, and I don't think that can be excused merely as something Shae had to do to survive. However, is that really a capital offense? I don't think Shae deserved to be killed for "betrayal" anymore than Bronn did. But she definitely did NOT deserve to die for humiliating him. You seem to think she did, which is really disturbing.

[The Mad Wolf]

Valar morghulis

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Bronn wasn't acting like an unreasonable dumbass, making unrealistic demands and generally not listening to advice meant to safeguard his life.

I can only see the reason for purposely excluding where Shae came from out of the equation is to make Tyrion's action seem worse. I have no problem with his actions until he kills her.

She is greedy, short sighted, selfish, mean, cruel, a liar. There is nothing to like about Shae as she is written.

I don't see how wanting to be paid for services which were agreed upon months earlier is being an "unreasonable dumbass" or "making unrealistic demands". Seems to me that wanting to be paid for services rendered is the height of reason.

The facts are that Tyrion 1) brought her to Kings Landing against the express wishes of his father, who is known (by Tyrion) to deal harshly with Tyrion's "whores", 2) reneged on his agreement with her to pay her for sex, yet continued to require sexual services from her, 3) required her to "earn her keep" as a lady's maid (or kitchen maid, which was his first idea), instead of paying her.

Shae may indeed be greedy, short-sighted, etc. but that's really neither here nor there. And I strongly hope that you didn't say that in order to provide justification for her murder, because that.... yuck.

[Cas Stark]

I don't see how wanting to be paid for services which were agreed upon months earlier is being an "unreasonable dumbass" or "making unrealistic demands". Seems to me that wanting to be paid for services rendered is the height of reason.

The facts are that Tyrion 1) brought her to Kings Landing against the express wishes of his father, who is known (by Tyrion) to deal harshly with Tyrion's "whores", 2) reneged on his agreement with her to pay her for sex, yet continued to require sexual services from her, 3) required her to "earn her keep" as a lady's maid (or kitchen maid, which was his first idea), instead of paying her.

Shae may indeed be greedy, short-sighted, etc. but that's really neither here nor there. And I strongly hope that you didn't say that in order to provide justification for her murder, because that.... yuck.

I've said repeatedly there is no excuse for her murder.

However, she's a terrible person, nothing is going to change that. And it is my opinion she was unrealistic and unreasonable after it became clear her life was in danger.

I don't buy that she deserves some kind of sympathy after being plucked from the army camp as a common prostitute and elevated FAR beyond anything she could have hoped for because she wasn't getting to wear her jewels or had to work an under cover job.

[Shah]

I think you are running into three problems.

1) people get very emotional anytime there is a discussion about the sex trade and the actual culpability/agency of those in the sex trade.

2) Tyrion is a popular character. People also get emotional when talking about characters the love/hate.

3) (and most important) fair deductions is subjective. And people get REALY emotional when discussing whether or not their deduction is fair.

All of this leads to an exciting conversation but perhaps one that is more polarized then would be preferred.

That excuses bad and unfair deductions and assumptions? (All three of the "problems" consisted emotion, so I think it's just one problem)

I prefer the well thought reasoning that is normally on this forum rather than the ridiculous ones that are very flawed.

[Petyr Patter]

Shae is very clearly in the relationship for the money (and jewels and silks), and never seems to realize how dangerous the situation has become after the Blackwater. Tyrion does realize it, and makes plans to send her away for her own safety. However, Shae talks him into keeping her around every time. Is this his failure or Shae's? Perhaps its both. Shae clearly wants to keep holding onto her meal ticket, while Tyrion wants to hold onto the closest thing he's had to love since 13.

Regardless, Tyrion is hardly depriving Shae of her payment out of some power trip. If Tywin makes a connection between her and Tyrion, he has threatened to hang her. And Tyrion knows Tywin does not believe in idle threats. So, if Tyrion doesn't play "bad benefactor" and limit her jewels and dresses, Tywin, Cersei, or one of Tyrion's other enemies in court will put two and two together and SHAE DIES.

So fearful is Tyrion about this possibility, that to keep Shae safe, he orders the death of Symon Silvertongue. Why? Symon should probably have known better than blackmailing a Lannister, and his willingness to see another performer maimed so he could perform at court means he is hardly innocent. Regardless, a combination of Symon's greed and Tyrion's desire to keep Shae safe led to his death. If Tyrion doesn't care about Shae, Symon can go right on living while Shae might have end up dead.

Then, Shae completely trashed him in court. Some theorize this was in response to a threat from Cersei or Tywin, but boy did Shae go above and beyond. She claimed he killed her first fiancee by putting him on the frontlines at Greenfork. She then claims he raped her and forced her into sexual service. Next, she perjures tales about his plans to kill Joffrey so he might someday claim the throne for himself. Finally, she humiliates him by making mocking use of her affection nickname for him, "Giant of Lannister." There is no evidence of threat or torture, though it does remain a possibility. The more likely explanation is Shae saw her meal ticket going away and wanted to make a deal to keep some of her gifts from Tyion. At some point, it appears she seduced Tywin.

When Tyrion finds her in Tywin's bed, he is in an incredibly dangerous situation. There are two guards outside, and if Shae calls for them Tyrion is dead. Does Tyrion have any reason to believe Shae loves him, wants him to be free? Not after her testimony. Still she might have been able to talk him down, or at least persuade him to just gag and bind her. Instead, she reminds him of how badly she humiliated him in court. So, he kills her. Perhaps if Shae hadn't gone the extra mile to villify Tyrion, or if she hadn't gone into Tywin's bed, she would still be alive.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

That excuses bad and unfair deductions and assumptions? (All three of the "problems" consisted emotion, so I think it's just one problem)

I prefer the well thought reasoning that is normally on this forum rather than the ridiculous ones that are very flawed.

No excuses. Just explanations. And they're all emotional responses but they come from different places.

And I think we all prefer well thought out reasoning but again it's subjective and we all have our own opinions about what that means.

Again not making excuses for anyone. I think we can all agree it's annoying as heck. just trying to explain what you're seeing.but you know sometimes people get emotional. Why not cut them a little slack. No doubt there will be times on these very forums you and I will get emotional and they will have to give slack to us.

[Shah]

No excuses. Just explanations. And they're all emotional responses but they come from different places.

And I think we all prefer well thought out reasoning but again it's subjective and we all have our own opinions about what that means.

Again not making excuses for anyone. I think we can all agree it's annoying as heck. just trying to explain what you're seeing.but you know sometimes people get emotional. Why not cut them a little slack. No doubt there will be times on these very forums you and I will get emotional and they will have to give slack to us.

If this was just an explanation...I figured most of their opinions were driven from an over-emotional standpoint. I still needed to vent.

Yes, I agree on the letting things go part, however, some of those "coming from an emotional standing" are being vicious. I see no need to cut slack for rude people, regardless if they're emotional.

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Shrug. Just try to remember people are people. They're just doing their best to do their best.

Venting's ok too.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I am glad he did it.

[Dany Girl]

I was just saying Tyrion was perfectly able of sending her somewhere safe, and chose not to. :P

Sorry, misunderstood. I see a lot of people saying she could have just left, forgetting what she'd be walking into if she chose to do so, and if Tyrion chose to let her, which I doubt he would have. Fact is she had no option but to stay and try to get the payments she earned. That was her stuff that he took away, stuff she earned by doing exactly what he told her to do. If my boss tried to take away the money I earned, there would be hell to pay. I don't think that makes me (or Shea) greedy or immoral like some posters have suggested. She's a whore, she makes her living on her back. Tyrion should have paid up.

[Charles Calthrop]

I actually take the opposite middle ground vs. you.

Given the nature of Shae's profession, in my opinion, she doesn't owe Tyrion anything - including 'loyalty' during the trial. She didn't have to be tortured - being a street smart pro, she knows to shift 'allegiances' when its in her favor. Again - she owes Tyrion nothing. It may not be the 'moral high ground' move, but it's the survival oriented move.

On the flip side, I don't feel Tyrion is particular unjustified in offing her for a) welching on him and b ) being a witness to his murder of Tywin. The latter seems small, but its really not. Tywin is a Lord Paramount and on top of that his kin. Tyrion killing Tywin is considered a huge crime in Westeros. On the other hand, not only is Shae 'small folk', but she's also a foreigner and a pro - therefore about the opposite of Tywin on the prosecution scale. Removing the one person who could definitely attest to him having murdered Tywin was likely strategic. (Particularly given how unlikely it would be for him to be prosecuted in Westeros.)

Since he doesn't 'owe' her anything either, it was probably the right play for him. Again, not the 'moral high ground' move, but the survival oriented move.

Yeah, I think she is greedy and amoral. Her total lack of sympathy for Lollys says a lot of her character. She wants to go to the wedding because she's pushing the envelop, because, look how much she has gotten already, just by pretending to enjoy sex with Tyrion. She's living like a queen.

And the reason for the change is because of the kidnapping and beating of the 'wrong whore' it isn't as if Tyrion does this randomly for no reason. He is trying to protect her, but she's too greedy and selfish to see it that way. He has paid her MUCH MUCH more than she ever could or would have expected. Come on. Jewels and a house for being a whore? Who gets that? No one. She would have been happy with some gold dragons if Tyrion hadn't gone of the deep end and turned her into his 'girlfriend'.

But, again, Shae being a bad person is no excuse for Tyrion to kill her. Both things can be true. She is a bad person, but he should not have murdered her.

[Charles Calthrop]

I'm not glad it happened. Despite my thinking Shae was a terrible person, not a poor lil helpless girl who should be pitied because she was a prostitute....there is no excuse for Tyrion strangling her in a fit of rage than she punked him and was still trying to get away with it. I will never forgive him for that.

Not that she "punked" him. She gave testimony that was above and beyond the pale damning against him. Basically ensuring that he'd be executed. Again, don't think she 'owed' him better. But by the same standard, he didn't owe her any better either, especially when she was a witness and/or could have raised the alarm.

[dbjm]

Shae is very clearly in the relationship for the money (and jewels and silks), and never seems to realize how dangerous the situation has become after the Blackwater. Tyrion does realize it, and makes plans to send her away for her own safety. However, Shae talks him into keeping her around every time. Is this his failure or Shae's? Perhaps its both. Shae clearly wants to keep holding onto her meal ticket, while Tyrion wants to hold onto the closest thing he's had to love since 13.

Regardless, Tyrion is hardly depriving Shae of her payment out of some power trip. If Tywin makes a connection between her and Tyrion, he has threatened to hang her. And Tyrion knows Tywin does not believe in idle threats. So, if Tyrion doesn't play "bad benefactor" and limit her jewels and dresses, Tywin, Cersei, or one of Tyrion's other enemies in court will put two and two together and SHAE DIES.

So fearful is Tyrion about this possibility, that to keep Shae safe, he orders the death of Symon Silvertongue. Why? Symon should probably have known better than blackmailing a Lannister, and his willingness to see another performer maimed so he could perform at court means he is hardly innocent. Regardless, a combination of Symon's greed and Tyrion's desire to keep Shae safe led to his death. If Tyrion doesn't care about Shae, Symon can go right on living while Shae might have end up dead.

Then, Shae completely trashed him in court. Some theorize this was in response to a threat from Cersei or Tywin, but boy did Shae go above and beyond. She claimed he killed her first fiancee by putting him on the frontlines at Greenfork. She then claims he raped her and forced her into sexual service. Next, she perjures tales about his plans to kill Joffrey so he might someday claim the throne for himself. Finally, she humiliates him by making mocking use of her affection nickname for him, "Giant of Lannister." There is no evidence of threat or torture, though it does remain a possibility. The more likely explanation is Shae saw her meal ticket going away and wanted to make a deal to keep some of her gifts from Tyion. At some point, it appears she seduced Tywin.

When Tyrion finds her in Tywin's bed, he is in an incredibly dangerous situation. There are two guards outside, and if Shae calls for them Tyrion is dead. Does Tyrion have any reason to believe Shae loves him, wants him to be free? Not after her testimony. Still she might have been able to talk him down, or at least persuade him to just gag and bind her. Instead, she reminds him of how badly she humiliated him in court. So, he kills her. Perhaps if Shae hadn't gone the extra mile to villify Tyrion, or if she hadn't gone into Tywin's bed, she would still be alive.

:agree: This basically sums up my thoughts. Thank you for saving me the hassle of having to type it myself.

Shae isn't an innocent victim here. Whether she was coerced to testify at the trial, she went to the extreme to ensure he was well and truly humiliated in front of everyone. Yes killing her was probably over the top by modern standards, but killing her in Westeros was not such a horrible thing (Mycah incident ring any bells?) Commoners have less rights, prostitutes less so again.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I understand why Tyrion killed her but it was morally wrong. But to be honest I find hard to sympathize with her after that "all they did was fuck her" line when speaking about Lolly. I really stop caring about that horrid, apathetic woman after that and I believe that she agreed to help Cersei after an offer for more money and a manse. That said, I think Tywin approached her, not the other way around.

[mormont]

Not that she "punked" him. She gave testimony that was above and beyond the pale damning against him. Basically ensuring that he'd be executed.

Not a single thing that Shae says 'ensures' that Tyrion will be executed. In fact, her testimony has very little impact on the trial's outcome, which was always likely to be the same. Nothing Shae could have said would have made a difference one way or the other to Tyrion's fate (though if she'd insisted on his innocence, it would not have gone well for her, one feels).

If you want to say that Shae deserved to die because she humiliated Tyrion in public, go ahead. I think that's an appalling point of view, but it's one that at least is based on the facts. But if you're going to claim that she deserved to die because her testimony condemned him to die... well, that's a different issue.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I don't object to the killing her because she could indeed have raised the alarm, testified that Tyrion did kill Tywin... I do object to people saying she deserved to die because she "betrayed" Tyrion.

As others have said she owed him nothing, and she did what she had to to do survive. She was alone in the world, no family to help her out she had to get by on her looks and her wits. She was doing what she saw as the most likely thing to get her out of KL alive and with the means to support herself.

Tyrion never paid her what he owed her, over a year and a half of sex with him and he didn't give her a penny. Now I don't doubt he tld himself that he will pay her eventually, BUT he never does, when he offers to let her go he doesn't mention anything about paying her, returning the jewels and silks etc.

As far as she knows he is proposing she leave KL by foot alone with nothing but the rags she is standing in. Into a war zone.

Too right she presses to have the jewels and silks returned, if he returns them she can trade them for cash and get passage to Old town, or similar place not effected by the war, with the beautiful silks and her pretty yound face she can set herself up as a much higher class of prostitute, and live a far better life that she was as camp follower. Too right she wants those dresses back!

She wants to go to the wedding feast, she tells Tyrion she'll sit in the corner, out of sight and pleasure him when he goes to the toilet, but has it occured to anyone else that she wants to go to the feast in order to try to secure a new patron, one who will actually pay her and or keep her in teh manor she was promised by Tyrion? And escape the life of servitude she has been forced into by him.

Lollys, well yes its a harsh as hell thing to say, and can be interpreted as heartless, But think about it, she is a sex worker, she was abused by her father, she was made his servant in their home too, she ran away and lived on the streets, she had to prostitute herself, she will have had hairy encounters in her trade, seen women she worked alongside killed, scarred, maimed etc by Johns. So by what Shae has lived through Lolly's is whining about nothing. I'm not saying being gang raped is nothing, FAR FROM IT. But if you try to see things from Shae's perspective then you can understand why she says the things she does.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I agree with those who have stated that Tyrion likely wouldn't have killed Shae if she hadn't called him "my giant", and that the killing was not premeditated, but a crime of passion. To me that does mitigate it a little.

The problem (well, one of the problems) I have with Tyrion killing Shae is that the "final straw" for him was NOT her "betrayal" or perjury. It was how she set him up to be laughed at by everyone that she knew.

Explain, please. Why it's NOT the perjury? Her "my giant of Lannister" brought back everything: her false testimony, the fact that she cared to add an unnecessary, personal touch to it, yes, the humiliation, too - the whole nine yards. Why do you assume that one of those things counted (and how did you determine - which one), and the other did not?