Aegon/fAegon

[Kienn]

But the founding mission of the Golden Company was to dethrone the main line Targaryens and replace them with the Blackfyres.

No, their mission was to put the best man on the throne. "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon" indicates they don't actually care which one the best man is from. It's not "Black dragons are better than Red dragons! YO!"

Why did the Blackfyres rebel? Because they thought Daemon would be the better king, regardless of his birth. In the same spirit they can support a real Aegon that they've tirelessly raised to be a great king.

Now the GC thinks Aegon will make the best king, so they want to put him on the throne and go back home.

[The guy from the Vale]

If their mission was to put the best man on the throne, why did they fight for Maelys the Monstrous?!? We are told outright they were founded to support the Blackfyres, and I see no reason to question that.

More to the point, the Blackfyres also clung to the notion that Daemon II was illegitimate, making the Blackfyres the real royal line if true. The Golden Company would be like people trying to have Stannis' descendants claim the throne from Tommen's 100 years after Tommen was crowned, based on the idea that Tommen was illegitimate so Stannis' line would be the real kings.

[Ser Eric]

But the founding mission of the Golden Company was to dethrone the main line Targaryens and replace them with the Blackfyres. They fought against the Targs for the first two thirds of their existence. Why should they suddenly be fighting for them? And if they just want to go home, why didn't they pledge their support to Robert, for example? Robert is as close a relative to the Blackfyres as the Targaryens are, so the blood argument would apply there too.

In fact, by the same token you could claim that the Targaryens and Baratheons have the same blood. They are closer relatives than the Targaryens and the current crop of Blackfyres. But I think we all agree that Baratheon supporters are not Targaryen supporters by default. So why do you claim Blackfyre supporters would be Targ supporters by default when the opposite is far more likely?

Why the GC would be willing to fight for the Targaryens is something we can only guess. But from what've read in the DwD most of the GC was now comprised of Sellswords and they were willing to fight for Dany, who is definitely a Targaryen. There's also the case of Jon Conniington, a Targaryen loyalist who rose up to 2nd in the chain of command in a anto Targaryen company. Whatever the founding aim of of GC there are signs they were straying away from it.

Also, the GC has a 2nd aim, to go back home and reclaim their lands. That wasn't going to happen with Robert on the throne.

[The guy from the Vale]

We are told they are fighting because of a contract writ in blood. The GC has only one contract writ in blood that we know of: seating a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

That they did not support Robert during the Rebellion (when they might have hoped to get a pardon for their support) but instead sat that war out is a sign that there are still ideological reasons for them not to support any descendant of Daemon II - whether that's Aerys or Robert doesn't matter. So why then the sudden turnaround to supporting Aegon?

[raegal_targaryen]

We are told they are fighting because of a contract writ in blood. The GC has only one contract writ in blood that we know of: seating a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

That they did not support Robert during the Rebellion (when they might have hoped to get a pardon for their support) but instead sat that war out is a sign that there are still ideological reasons for them not to support any descendant of Daemon II - whether that's Aerys or Robert doesn't matter. So why then the sudden turnaround to supporting Aegon?

they where gonne support daenerys but....it always came someting inbetween and besides they probably has contracts they needed to fulfill while robert was waging his war...

[The guy from the Vale]

You are missing the point here, I think. The Golden Company had never broken a contract. They had a reputation as the most reliable sellsword company. Perhaps they might fight for Dany or Viserys (I think that's only what the officers told their subordinates, but that's just speculation), but they would only do so if they had no other contracts to fulfill.

But then they break their contract with Lys to support Young Griff, and here things get hairy. Breaking that contract will severely damage their reputation, so they need good reason to do so - and the one good reason we know of would be an overriding contract, i.e. the founding contract: seating a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

[Chebyshov]

You are missing the point here, I think. The Golden Company had never broken a contract. They had a reputation as the most reliable sellsword company. Perhaps they might fight for Dany or Viserys (I think that's only what the officers told their subordinates, but that's just speculation), but they would only do so if they had no other contracts to fulfill.

But then they break their contract with Lys to support Young Griff, and here things get hairy. Breaking that contract will severely damage their reputation, so they need good reason to do so - and the one good reason we know of would be an overriding contract, i.e. the founding contract: seating a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

They broke their contract with Lys to support Dany initially (who is decidedly a Targ), apparently as set up by Illyrio. Your points are the same that Tyrion brings up, which is why he makes that shady "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" remark. They don't pivot to supporting Aegon (another "Targ" in their eyes) until they realize Dany isn't headed to Westeros any time soon. They were also getting pissed that Illyrio and Varys were constantly changing plans on them, and wanted some control, I think.

So they did break their contract for a Targ (Dany), not a Blackfyre. My guess is it's because dragons in the modern era are a game changer for everyone.

[The guy from the Vale]

They broke their contract with Lys to support Dany initially (who is decidedly a Targ), apparently as set up by Illyrio. Your points are the same that Tyrion brings up, which is why he makes that shady "black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" remark. They don't pivot to supporting Aegon (another "Targ" in their eyes) until they realize Dany isn't headed to Westeros any time soon. They were also getting pissed that Illyrio and Varys were constantly changing plans on them, and wanted some control, I think.

So they did break their contract for a Targ (Dany), not a Blackfyre. My guess is it's because dragons in the modern era are a game changer for everyone.

But apparently the top brass already know about Aegon before that. They might explain their breaking the contract as being for Dany to their underlings to confuse spies, but the officers are already preparing to break the contract for Aegon, not Dany, back then.

Also, if you believe what Illyrio is saying on the surface, sure, go ahead. I do not trust that cheesemonger, and neither do Tyrion or Dany, by the way.

[Ser Eric]

You are missing the point here, I think. The Golden Company had never broken a contract. They had a reputation as the most reliable sellsword company. Perhaps they might fight for Dany or Viserys (I think that's only what the officers told their subordinates, but that's just speculation), but they would only do so if they had no other contracts to fulfill.

But then they break their contract with Lys to support Young Griff, and here things get hairy. Breaking that contract will severely damage their reputation, so they need good reason to do so - and the one good reason we know of would be an overriding contract, i.e. the founding contract: seating a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne.

There is no perhaps about it. The GC broke their contract for Dany. I

[The guy from the Vale]

Did they ever give their offer of support to Dany? Does she know about their breaking the contract? No? So they didn't break the contract for her, they just broke it.

They do know, on the other hand, about the existence of "Aegon", and they immediately switch their support to him once he appears. Looks more like they were preparing to declare for him while keeping his existence secret by claiming to be declaring for Dany to me.

[Ser Eric]

But apparently the top brass already know about Aegon before that. They might explain their breaking the contract as being for Dany to their underlings to confuse spies, but the officers are already preparing to break the contract for Aegon, not Dany, back then.

Also, if you believe what Illyrio is saying on the surface, sure, go ahead. I do not trust that cheesemonger, and neither do Tyrion or Dany, by the way.

Who knew? As far as we know Varys, Illyrio, Tyrone and JC were the only people who knew. Tyrone probably told Strickland about it but that's about it. Strickland only told the rest after they reached Volantis. The implication being until they knew most of them had no qualms about breaking their contract for Dany.

[Ser Eric]

Did they ever give their offer of support to Dany? Does she know about their breaking the contract? No? So they didn't break the contract for her, they just broke it.

They do know, on the other hand, about the existence of "Aegon", and they immediately switch their support to him once he appears. Looks more like they were preparing to declare for him while keeping his existence secret by claiming to be declaring for Dany to me.

If the books are anything to go by, only Strickland knew about Aegon.

They don't immediately switch their support. They only do so because going to Meereen wasn't feasible and Dany wasn't coming to Volantis which left them with no other choice.

[The guy from the Vale]

You mean Toyne, right?

You assume only Strickland knew, but by the time JC arrives, the entire officer staff knows about Aegon. Unless Strickland told them about Aegon just hours before, he probably told them about him when they broke the contract with Lys at latest - he would have had to explain his reasoning to them. They might have decided together that telling the brass about supporting Dany might be the safer option in order to not divert attention to Aegon too soon.

ETA: They were going to support Dany and Aegon together. Once it becomes clear they can't do that, they decide to back Aegon instead of heading for Meereen. So it seems Aegon is more important to them than Dany, and I see nothing to suggest that was different before the news of Dany still sitting in Meereen arriced. Even Connington is surprised they were that easy to convince, which to me suggests they needed no convincing and were already backing Aegon back then.

[Ser Eric]

You mean Toyne, right?

You assume only Strickland knew, but by the time JC arrives, the entire officer staff knows about Aegon. Unless Strickland told them about Aegon just hours before, he probably told them about him when they broke the contract with Lys at latest - he would have had to explain his reasoning to them. They might have decided together that telling the brass about supporting Dany might be the safer option in order to not divert attention to Aegon too soon.

Yeah, Toyne or whoever it was who was the head of the GC before Strickland.

And nope. It's explicitly stated in the book that Strickland told them about Aegon well after breaking the contract. The GC was getting restless in Volantis and Strickland had to reject the offer from Yunkai.

“When did you tell them?”

The captain-general wriggled his blistered toes in his footbath. “When we reached the river. The company was restless, with good reason. We walked away from an easy campaign in the Disputed Lands, and for what? So we could swelter in this god-awful heat watching our coins melt away and our blades go to rust whilst I turn away rich contracts?”

That news made Griff’s skin crawl. “Who?”

“The Yunkishmen. The envoy that they sent to woo Volantis has already dispatched three free companies to Slaver’s Bay. He wishes us to be the fourth and offers twice what Myr was paying us, plus a slave for every man in the company, ten for every officer, and a hundred choice maidens all for me.”

[The guy from the Vale]

Even then, Strickland was the one making the decision to break the contract in the first place, and I cannot see Toyne choosing a successor for himself who didn't support the Blackfyre cause.

And apparently, the reason Strickland told the officers was good enough for them not to rebel against him, so they must have agreed he had good reason... which just hoping that Dany might possibly turn up in Volantis plainly isn't.

[Ser Eric]

Even then, Strickland was the one making the decision to break the contract in the first place, and I cannot see Toyne choosing a successor for himself who didn't support the Blackfyre cause.

And apparently, the reason Strickland told the officers was good enough for them not to rebel against him, so they must have agreed he had good reason... which just hoping that Dany might possibly turn up in Volantis plainly isn't.

You are assuming Aegon is fake and then working backwards. We don't know if Toyne supported the Blackfyre cause, that's just assumption at this point. In fact considering his 2nd in command was a Targaryen loyalist it's a shaky assumption at best.

The reason he told the officers for breaking the contract is obvious. Dany was to come to Volantis (or so they hoped). They would offer their swords to her and she would take them home.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I'm leaning more and more to the fact he is Aegon Targaryern. The plot by Varys & Illyrio, to me anyway, seems as if it's a plot to try and fulfil Rhaegars prophecy, that being said it would mean they would have to have knowledge of the third head of the dragon & nothing has suggested they do. But nobody thought Aegon was alive, so anything is possible.

[The guy from the Vale]

You are assuming Aegon is fake and then working backwards. We don't know if Toyne supported the Blackfyre cause, that's just assumption at this point. In fact considering his 2nd in command was a Targaryen loyalist it's a shaky assumption at best.

The reason he told the officers for breaking the contract is obvious. Dany was to come to Volantis (or so they hoped). They would offer their swords to her and she would take them home.

Yes, I am assuming Aegon is fake from a metric ton of hints. Even if I didn't have those hints, I would be at least suspicious about the story; the hints are what makes me reasonably sure it's a fake. The Blackfyre angle is just the most plausible fake Aegon, but I am not fully wedded to that part, although the foreshadowing is strong for that as well.

Look, I simply do not trust Illyrio or Varys. I have seen them tell half-truths left and right, leading those they told those half-truths astray. Varys led Ned to believe Ser Hugh had killed Jon Arryn but did so in terms that also described Littlefinger, who we by now know was the real culprit. Illyrio plays the Targaryen supporter to Viserys and later admits to Tyrion that he expected him to die, alongside Dany, in the Dothraki sea. If Varys and Illyrio are Targaryen supporters, nothing about them makes any sense - so my conclusion there is that they are playing the Targ supporters to those outside as to lend their actual, Targ-inimical plan credibility. They are playing a very long con, and at the end of it stands Illyrio's son and Varys' nephew as king.

[Ser Eric]

Yes, I am assuming Aegon is fake from a metric ton of hints. Even if I didn't have those hints, I would be at least suspicious about the story; the hints are what makes me reasonably sure it's a fake. The Blackfyre angle is just the most plausible fake Aegon, but I am not fully wedded to that part, although the foreshadowing is strong for that as well.

Look, I simply do not trust Illyrio or Varys. I have seen them tell half-truths left and right, leading those they told those half-truths astray. Varys led Ned to believe Ser Hugh had killed Jon Arryn but did so in terms that also described Littlefinger, who we by now know was the real culprit. Illyrio plays the Targaryen supporter to Viserys and later admits to Tyrion that he expected him to die, alongside Dany, in the Dothraki sea. If Varys and Illyrio are Targaryen supporters, nothing about them makes any sense - so my conclusion there is that they are playing the Targ supporters to those outside as to lend their actual, Targ-inimical plan credibility. They are playing a very long con, and at the end of it stands Illyrio's son and Varys' nephew as king.

There's probably just one hint in the entire series about Aegon being a Blackfyre and that's the dragon sign washing up and even that's tenuous at best. So, no, there aren't metric tons of hints about him being fake.

Vary's and Illyrio had the heir to Rhaegar himself so they didn't really care about either Viserys or Dany especially Dany. They later used Dany to get the backing of the Dothraki. They expected Dany to die not Viserys who was asked to stay behind. All that changed with the dragons and they altered their plan to reflect that. Makes sense to me.

But yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree.

[The guy from the Vale]

I said about Aegon being fake, not tabout him being a Blackfyre. Aegon being fake is quite well-established actually. From Elia holding Aegon in her arms when she died (would she really do that with a child that was not hers?) over the mummer's dragon prophecies (two of them), Moqorro's "false dragon", the fact that Connington did not get contacted by Varys until the boy was five years old (i.e., too old to notice an obvious age discrepancy of several months to a year). Add to that the real world precedent of people who claimed to be descendants of royalty thought long dead like Perkin Warbeck, Lambert Simnel or Anna Anderson who were universally exposed as frauds... no, I don't think fAegon is who Illyrio and Varys claim him to be.