Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 So, I was rereading ADwD and this comment of Val about Craster's son struck me like a ton of bricks: “See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”“Kings and dragons.” (Jon VIII ADwD) Jon switched Mance's baby with Craster's baby because he feared Mance's "king's blood" would be powerful for Mel's spells. Jon's logic is that Craster's baby would be useless for her. But then Val reveals that Mel knows the switch happened. Okay, let's assume Mel really does know the switch happened. According to Jon's logic, the baby should still be safe. It doesn't have "king's blood." In fact, Mel knowing should actually make the baby safer. Because Mel knows, she wont accidently burn the baby thinking it has king's blood - Gilly's very legitimate fear. But Val is saying Jon's logic is wrong, it seems. She's saying that Mel knowing it is Craster's baby makes it more dangerous for him. As in, Craster's baby is more powerful and useful than Mance's baby. What's in Craster's children's incestuous blood? Clearly its something the White Walkers want and Val thinks Mel will want it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amoracchius Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with his blood. Maybe Val was just saying that the child was in danger because a close confidant of Stannis' knows that Jon deceived and lied to "his king." If Mel is truly loyal to Stannis, that revelation could endanger both Jon and the baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 Maybe it doesn't have anything to do with his blood. Maybe Val was just saying that the child was in danger because a close confidant of Stannis' knows that Jon deceived and lied to "his king." If Mel is truly loyal to Stannis, that revelation could endanger both Jon and the baby. While Jon's betrayal might endanger him, how would it endanger the child? It seems Val is saying the danger is specifically from Mel to Monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 "keep him away from the red woman" certainly sounds as if that is the case, and yes the significance of Craster's sons is something we've argued over quite a lot on Heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinchanging Sweetrobin Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 "keep him away from the red woman" certainly sounds as if that is the case, and yes the significance of Craster's sons is something we've argued over quite a lot on Heresy. I wonder if that's what awoke the White Walkers in greater numbers. His first round of sons would have a certain amount of power, but his round through with daughers would have twice as much power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 So, I was rereading ADwD and this comment of Val about Craster's son struck me like a ton of bricks: “See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”“Kings and dragons.” (Jon VIII ADwD) Jon switched Mance's baby with Craster's baby because he feared Mance's "king's blood" would be powerful for Mel's spells. Jon's logic is that Craster's baby would be useless for her. But then Val reveals that Mel knows the switch happened. Okay, let's assume Mel really does know the switch happened. According to Jon's logic, the baby should still be safe. It doesn't have "king's blood." In fact, Mel knowing should actually make the baby safer. Because Mel knows, she wont accidently burn the baby thinking it has king's blood - Gilly's very legitimate fear. But Val is saying Jon's logic is wrong, it seems. She's saying that Mel knowing it is Craster's baby makes it more dangerous for him. As in, Craster's baby is more powerful and useful than Mance's baby. What's in Craster's children's incestuous blood? Clearly its something the White Walkers want and Val thinks Mel will want it too. The babies were not swapped. Gilly took her own child (Craster's Son) with her to Old Town. Val knows this, having spent time with Gilly as well as the babes, and Val has grown attached to 'Monster', who is her Nephew. When Gilly departed from Castle Black, Jon said some last words to her & her reply was very defiant, then Jon admitted to himself that he could not distinguish between the babies, so he had no way of knowing if Gilly had complied with his directive or not. On the other hand, Gilly was crying & very upset during the voyage to Old Town. This was supposedly due to the baby-swap, but think there was was different reason for her grief - one that is not related to the loss of her child. As of now, the reader has no way of knowing which baby is where, but knowing GRRM, I believe that Gilly took her own baby, leaving Mance's Son behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 ^The babies were succesfully swapped. That it's meant to parallel the story that explains Aegon, that he was also "swapped" and nobody knew. And Val telling us that she can see the true in her fires, that she could say whether he's real or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I think there is power in all blood, but certain bloodlines may possess higher concentrations of power. Varys for example was tracked down & purchased by a sorcerer because his blood (manhood) could have possessed unique powers. The books have yet to reveal whether or not certain bloodlines are more powerful than others. Many believe that the Starks are one such bloodline & that Craster might be a Stark - or have Stark Blood. I'm not sure if I believe this or not. --Personally, I do not believe Crater is sacrificing his sons to the Others. I do not believe that Craster or any of his Wives have ever seen an Other, though this could change in TWOW. Craster's association with the Others all hinges on one circumstantial piece of evidence: That Gilly claims to have seen the Others taking another one of Craster's Sons. This event is portrayed in the illustrated copy of ACOKs & can be viewed at the link below, I think it is the 4th image. http://richardhescox.yolasite.com/a-clash-of-kings-gallery.php I have no doubt that you will note that the figures that Gilly saw collecting the sacrifice does not look anything like the Others as GRRM described them in the Prologue to AGOTs. I believe that Gilly was mistaken. I believe that wildings (such as the Horned Lord, or his like) are collecting Craster's Sons & sacrificing them to the Old Gods. Whether or not the recipients of Craster's sacrifices are specifically interested in Craster's bloodline, I cannot say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The one thing that really makes Craster's wives statement seem reliable is the part about the cold. They know the sacrifices are associated with the cold. So, unless there are someones else who can bring the cold with them, I think what the wives say is true. Somewhat.Saying that, I want to say this. I think the First Men had something to do with the original Others. They were screwing around with magic/places they should not have. Like Ice magic or necromancy or both in the far north. Building on that, I think the LoaW does have a frozen hell where ceartain souls/spirits are trapped in the cold. Say, human greenseers who never connected with a tree? Trapped in the icy cold hell. Maybe a group of FM, or maybe just one FM, unleashed the frozen hell on Westeros. If so, then there may be folks who still know the Ice magic from the north.Craster and his ilk could have this blood connecting to the ancient Others, or those that released the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a boy and his wolf Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 just want to point out that there is absolutely no reason to believe a kings blood has any special power, other than melisandre's vague inferences to that effect. and i personally take any words from her mouth with mountains of salt. shes either a liar, or just plain has no clue what shes on about. more likely both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 just want to point out that there is absolutely no reason to believe a kings blood has any special power, other than melisandre's vague inferences to that effect. and i personally take any words from her mouth with mountains of salt. shes either a liar, or just plain has no clue what shes on about. more likely both I agree. Naming someone King does not change that someones' blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Thorrand Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I agree. Naming someone King does not change that someones' blood. Agreed as well. Mance was named king beyond the wall, a title no one recognizes or actually cares about. Saying he has magical blood is akin to saying the king of mummers does. Or hank hill because he is king of the hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setmyheartafire Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 The babes were swapped. What else would Gilly be crying so much about?!Though I disagree it mirrors Aegon's "swap" and think it more clearly mirrors Ned Stark's metaphorical swap in Jon's own case even though he doesn't know it. It also shows he is more Ned's son than he even knows whether or not he really is biologically. I think it will be part of his final assertion that he is a Stark no matter what, or else he will be able to see the logic in being "hidden" and not be totally bitter about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oursisthefury69 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Wow I've never even thought about this. (And btw, do we think in the event Mel does try burning the child, Jon and co will maintain the lie to fool Mel and let her kill him?) But If the whole "kings blood" thing ends up being valid I could see R'hllor followers (fire magic) practicing the sacrifice of blood of old Valyria, which somehow became misinterpreted to just mean kings after the Targs were known for their rule of Westeros; where followers of the Old Gods (ice magic) need the sacrifice of First Men blood. So it would be crazy if Mel knew she could do something with a great blood sacrifice, and even though she may have been fooled by the swap still get the results she desired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horizon Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 The baby will be burned by Melissandre to bring back Jon.... .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.