The Curious Case of The Dragon Prince and The Winter Rose 3

[WierWood Wolf]

Are you saying Jon has opened his 3rd eye? I think in this dream sequence, Bran is tapping Jon's forehead much the same way as Jojen tapped Bran's.

Yep touching his third eye is .Jojen was telling Bran the 3eCrow opened that.He(Bran) intern open Jon's.I can't remember the exact page though for the Jojen conversation.

[King Benjen II]

I thought Tyrion being Rhaegar's half-brother was important to the storyline. ( a second son of Aerys being born before Viserys, the Jon and Tyrion encounter outside the feast?) Jon being the son of Rhaegar would explain why the both have dragondreams. Jon told Ygritte that I had another ( what does that mean if not Jon including himself?) friend that dreamed of dragons after going into a Maester Luwin/Old Nan story about dragons showing up at the Wall and changing the rules of the " game " in a way that affected Skagos and Bael. These seem like night dragons, or maybe he just needs to join A.D.D.A ( alcoholic dragon dreamers anonymous.)

Keep in mind the only chance Jon and Tyrion have to interact with each other is at the beginning of Game of Thrones at the Wall. That dragons even get brought up back in 1996 between these two seems like George R Martin trying to say, hey guys look over here! That Jon recalls this event in SOS that came out in 2000 confirms our suspicions as truths. If you don't want Tyrion and Jon to dream of dragons that is fine, but the text suggests something different in my humblest of opinions.

@ Wolfmaid7. Maybe a Heresy thread just dedicated to " moon " quotes is in order?

Jon doesn't have dragon dreams since he has yet to have one. That Tyrion/Jon exchange was explained on page 1.

[The Lord of Corpses]

Jon doesn't have dragon dreams since he has yet to have one. That Tyrion/Jon exchange was explained on page 1.

You are right. He only talks about them ( having dragon dreams and betrayal of family ) with Tyrion in book 1 and tells Ygritte about that discussion in book 3 ( he recalls this specific chapter), outside the only castle where dragons have ever landed at in the Wall's known history. Can you explain your interpretation of the SOS's quote use of the word, another,and my Tyrion evidence as well or are you just going to be dismissive because this is your thread? Explain again please, because some of us don't see it that way and need to be convinced. Black Crow can help you if you want.

Tyrion Lannister Targaryen is a member of A.D.D.A and I am his sponsor.

[setmyheartafire]

I'm sorry, but that post on page 1 about Tyrion not talking about dragon dreams but about dreams of revenge is nonsensical to me if it means to imply they were not talking about dreaming of dragons in that he explicitly says he dreamt of having his own dragon and Jon is nearly disbelieving thinking he is perhaps mocking him with the implication that he, Jon, has indeed had dreams of having his own dragon.

Certainly it also means the deeper things mentioned. And certainly the exchange is at least dual layered.

But they both dreamt of having dragons.

Therefore Jon has had dreams of dragons.

Not warging them, not like the wolf dreams, but certainly dreams about dragons.

Could there not be a limitation on a warg's ability to warg or even dream their animal if they have never had contact with it? It seems to me the wargs we have seen have had some form of contact with their animal initially. They don't seem able to say, tap into an animal they've never seen or come into contact with.

Daenerys' and Tyrion's dreams are far from "dragondreams" so I don't see how you can say they are any different from any other dream in which there are dragons also.

[King Benjen II]

You are right. He only talks about them ( having dragon dreams and betrayal of family ) with Tyrion in book 1 and tells Ygritte about that discussion in book 3 ( he recalls this specific chapter), outside the only castle where dragons have ever landed at in the Wall's known history. Can you explain your interpretation of the SOS's quote use of the word, another,and my Tyrion evidence as well or are you just going to be dismissive because this is your thread? Explain again please, because some of us don't see it that way and need to be convinced. Black Crow can help you if you want.

Tyrion Lannister Targaryen is a member of A.D.D.A and I am his sponsor.

If you have book text where Jon says he had a dragon dream I'd be more than happy to see it.

[King Benjen II]

I'm sorry, but that post on page 1 about Tyrion not talking about dragon dreams but about dreams of revenge is nonsensical to me if it means to imply they were not talking about dreaming of dragons in that he explicitly says he dreamt of having his own dragon and Jon is nearly disbelieving thinking he is perhaps mocking him with the implication that he, Jon, has indeed had dreams of having his own dragon.

Certainly it also means the deeper things mentioned. And certainly the exchange is at least dual layered.

But they both dreamt of having dragons.

Therefore Jon has had dreams of dragons.

Not warging them, not like the wolf dreams, but certainly dreams about dragons.

Could there not be a limitation on a warg's ability to warg or even dream their animal if they have never had contact with it? It seems to me the wargs we have seen have had some form of contact with their animal initially. They don't seem able to say, tap into an animal they've never seen or come into contact with.

Daenerys' and Tyrion's dreams are far from "dragondreams" so I don't see how you can say they are any different from any other dream in which there are dragons also.

Nowhere in this quote does Jon say, think or imply that he had a dragon dream.

"Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

"No," Jon Snow said, horrified. "I wouldn't..."

"No? Never?" Tyrion raised an eyebrow. "Well no doubt the Starks have been terribly good to you..."

Thinking Tyrion was perhaps making fun of him is by no means confirmation Jon has had dragon dreams. The only dragon related part of the convo was Tyrion saying he used to dream of riding one. Which itself doesn't even confirm he jas had a dragon dream. As he goes on to talk about revenge it seems the whole quote is him talking about wishes/daydreams. Not sleeping dreams.

[Toccs]

I'm sorry, but that post on page 1 about Tyrion not talking about dragon dreams but about dreams of revenge is nonsensical to me if it means to imply they were not talking about dreaming of dragons in that he explicitly says he dreamt of having his own dragon and Jon is nearly disbelieving thinking he is perhaps mocking him with the implication that he, Jon, has indeed had dreams of having his own dragon.

Dragon Dreams are the prohpetic dreams had by Deanys "the Dreamer" Targaryen, Daeron "the Drunkard" Targayen, Daemon II Blackfyre, Dany prior to hatching her dragons and Teora Toland.

There is no question to the people who have these dreams that they are magical and prophetic and they are all very unsettled by the dreams.

Tyrion's dreams on the other hand are boyhood fantasies about riding a dragon, they are no different in essence to bran's dreams of becomming a famous knight or Sansa's dreams of a brave and handsome knight saving her and riding off into the sunset.

[Black Crow]

Exactly so, and when he chides Jon about having that "kind" of dreams he's talking about revenge fantasies not dragons - and the dragons fighting in his head on the Shy Maid had nothing to do with visions and everything to do with a stonking hangover

[Black Crow]

As to the third eye business. The tapping and opening are not one and the same. It was the three-eyed crow who started the process off in Bran's case (he even felt the pain after he woke up) but it wasn't until some time later that it fully opened while he was in the crypt.

Likewise the process has been begun with Jon but not yet completed

The point of all this of course which seems to be straying far far away from R+L=J is that Jon's dreams are quite unlike those of Danaerys Targaryen and have nothing to do with dragons but are about Winterfell and wolves. He is a son of Winterfell and belongs to the wolves not the dragons.

[JNR]

Tyrion's dreams on the other hand are boyhood fantasies about riding a dragon, they are no different in essence to bran's dreams of becomming a famous knight or Sansa's dreams of a brave and handsome knight saving her and riding off into the sunset.

Complete agreement.

The point of all this of course which seems to be straying far far away from R+L=J is that Jon's dreams are quite unlike those of Danaerys Targaryen and have nothing to do with dragons but are about Winterfell and wolves. He is a son of Winterfell and belongs to the wolves not the dragons.

More complete agreement.

The crypts' presence in Jon's dreams is... significant, but it seems quite a leap to imagine that Rhaegar's harp will turn up there, as some think.

Offhand, I would say the Ark of the Covenant, Jimmy Hoffa, Flight 370, and the Amber Room would be possibiities of roughly equal likelihood. (One can't rule them out, of course.)

[King Benjen II]

As to the third eye business. The tapping and opening are not one and the same. It was the three-eyed crow who started the process off in Bran's case (he even felt the pain after he woke up) but it wasn't until some time later that it fully opened while he was in the crypt.

Likewise the process has been begun with Jon but not yet completed

The point of all this of course which seems to be straying far far away from R+L=J is that Jon's dreams are quite unlike those of Danaerys Targaryen and have nothing to do with dragons but are about Winterfell and wolves. He is a son of Winterfell and belongs to the wolves not the dragons.

The bolded would explain why our friends haven't paid us a visit yet. I had been wondering about that.

[King Benjen II]

Complete agreement.

More complete agreement.

The crypts' presence in Jon's dreams is... significant, but it seems quite a leap to imagine that Rhaegar's harp will turn up there, as some think.

Offhand, I would say the Ark of the Covenant, Jimmy Hoffa, Flight 370, and the Amber Room would be possibiities of roughly equal likelihood. (One can't rule them out, of course.)

I don't see who would even have the motivation to bury Lyanna with a harp or parchment etc or why Jon would even be inclined to open Lyanna's tomb or how any item would matter a fig in an attempt to gain the IT.

I lay better odds on the Money Pit on Oak Island being successfully excavated before any of the above happens.

[JNR]

JON: As you can see, this clearly proves me to be Rhaegar's trueborn son, and thus the rightful King of the First Men, Andals, and the Rhoynar.

WESTEROS: Uh, no. You're a delusional bastard who looks exactly like his Stark father and nothing like Rhaegar. And you bought a harp somewhere.

JON: But I am your savior. I unified ice and fire. I whipped the Others.

WESTEROS: Still going with delusional.

[King Benjen II]

JON: As you can see, this clearly proves me to be Rhaegar's trueborn son, and thus the rightful King of the First Men, Andals, and the Rhoynar.

WESTEROS: Uh, no. You're a delusional bastard who looks exactly like his Stark father and nothing like Rhaegar. And you bought a harp somewhere.

JON: But I am your savior. I unified ice and fire. I whipped the Others.

WESTEROS: Still going with delusional.

Exactly bro.

[JNR]

Speaking of Rhaegar and the harp and his singing, I turned up this video of him singing at Harrenhal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6tJQ05YJ58

You can see at about the 1:00 mark and again at 1:14 how sad Lyanna and some other woman are. Their sadness means they are very smitten and sexually aroused.

[Eira Seren]

I don't see who would even have the motivation to bury Lyanna with a harp or parchment etc or why Jon would even be inclined to open Lyanna's tomb or how any item would matter a fig in an attempt to gain the IT.

Only someone who wanted it eventually found out if they disturbed the tomb. Otherwise, better to toss it on the fire or throw it in the river if trying to hide or destroy the evidence. Anyone wanting to keep it secret would have done that.

Interesting, though, that Ned tells Jon that he'll tell him about his mother, later. After he joins the NW.

Speaking of Rhaegar and the harp and his singing, I turned up this video of him singing at Harrenhal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6tJQ05YJ58

You can see at about the 1:00 mark and again at 1:14 how sad Lyanna and some other woman are. Their sadness means they are very smitten and sexually aroused.

Hmmm, yes. I can see now why she never stood a chance.

[Metopheles]

I think we should not consider dragon dreams proof. Even I could dream of a dragon, but am not a Targaryen :S

Think of it, dreams are only something of the brain, of desire and wishes and fears. I am sure that 3 out of 10 smallfolk boys dream on a regular basis of dragons. It's everyone's desire to become awesome, especially if you have a dull or miserable life.

I think these dragon dreams are exactly what GRRM uses as red herrings. Cersei has a love for fire, like Tyrion, but both are surely Lannisters. Arya is fascinated with dragons, just like Bran, but both are Starks and have not a single drop of dragon blood in them.

[wolfmaid7]

There is a distinct difference though,dreaming you have a Dragon or dreaming about fire does not make it a Dragon dream.What makes it a Dragon dream is the summons of the Dragon via "Dragonsong",it is reaching out to the proxy not the other way around.Jon has experianced this with Ghost,not with any thing hot. These are Dragon dreams:

"There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud. Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. "You woke the dragon," he screamed as he kicked her. "You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon." Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was a dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found her, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid".

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt a dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her.There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma she raised her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

Then Dany sees her son, tall and proud with Drogo's skin and her hair, and violet eyes shaped like almonds. He smiles and reaches for her, but fire pours from his mouth and then he is consumed by fire. Next come ghosts, dressed as kings with hair of silver, gold, and platinum, and eyes of opal, amethyst, tourmaline, and jade. They cry out that she must go faster and faster. Pain rips through her and her skin tears open, revealing the shadow of wings. Then she flies.

The difference is that it is the Dragon reaching out to her,it is calling her.It is no mere random dream of longing it is a summons and transformation dream.

Just like the one Bran underwent with the Crow,summons and transformation.Jon has not had Dragon dreams.Not to say he won't get it,but its still up to him to embrace it if he wishes.

But for now we have three entities that have called to him so far Tree-Bran who opened his third eye. The Moon/crow- who knows what it wants to do and the Crypts-who knows what it wants to.

Important though is "if" one comes and Jon is a Targ ,its still up to him to answer.Even then his legitmacy will be in question.

[Metopheles]

It is not a dragon dream thing, but certainly a "link" with dragons:

The last chapter of Jon, his stabbing and the arena and Dany escaping with Drogo.. I found those two scenes quite similar. Drogo and Jon face similar things. A boar/giant playing with a corpse and then people suddenly coming and stabbing him in the back.

I think it is quite interesting. Thoughts ?

[Black Crow]

The long and short of it is that whilst Danaerys Targaryen has dragon dreams, the Stark kids including Jon have wolf dreams.