Oberyn & Tyrion discussion re Rhaegar & Elia [Book Spoilers]

[Envie]

I have no problem with people disagreeing with my opinion, that's what makes discussing the show fun. It's when you guys argue with objective facts that I shake my head.

It's interesting to compare his conversation with Oberyn to the one he had with Jon Snow on their way to the Wall. Tyrion definitely winces when he hears "until your brother killed that king," but responds with "yes, until my brother killed that king." It's a striking difference from "I've heard rumors," and "I wasn't there, I don't know what happened."

Those "objective facts" if I remember correctly were your opinion that six seconds of dialogue in Oberyn's entire speech were not relevant to the topic of discussion in comparison to the rest of his dialogue. Someone quoted you the question that the OP asked and we then politely disagreed with you. Shake your head all you like it's still just your opinion. That's the part that starts to get you into trouble because you insist your perspective on it is fact while everyone else's is simply argument and irrelevant. That's not good debate.

But as someone else said, let's move on. I'd hate for the topic to be locked or more posts deleted because you keep shaking your head and eye-rolling and you're the only one unable to take it for what it is: important to other viewers / readers but not yourself.

And again, I'm not a demanding R+L=J shipper who refuses to see anything else. I'm the one that pointed out Oberyn's speech was important for many reasons and that the bit where he states Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together is equally important for various reasons aside from the revenge he's seeking for Elia and children's heinous murders. I like the fact it's still up to debate and still a mystery.

The side debate about D&D's 'quiz' was just more conjecture about whether or not the clues we're being given in the show correlate with what we know GRRM confirmed with D&D - not that they got it right - but that if they did, and if GRRM gave the nod of approval, then that may be why the clues (which are also in the book) are starting to slowly seep into the show, particularly this season with Oberyn's arrival onto the scene.

It's just debate and conjecture. :)

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Those "objective facts" if I remember correctly were your opinion that six seconds of dialogue in Oberyn's entire speech were not relevant to the topic of discussion in comparison to the rest of his dialogue. Someone quoted you the question that the OP asked and we then politely disagreed with you. Shake your head all you like it's still just your opinion. That's the part that starts to get you into trouble because you insist your perspective on it is fact while everyone else's is simply argument and irrelevant. That's not good debate.

But as someone else said, let's move on. I'd hate for the topic to be locked or more posts deleted because you keep shaking your head and eye-rolling and you're the only one unable to take it for what it is: important to other viewers / readers but not yourself.

And again, I'm not a demanding R+L=J shipper who refuses to see anything else. I'm the one that pointed out Oberyn's speech was important for many reasons and that the bit where he states Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together is equally important for various reasons aside from the revenge he's seeking for Elia and children's heinous murders. I like the fact it's still up to debate and still a mystery.

The side debate about D&D's 'quiz' was just more conjecture about whether or not the clues we're being given in the show correlate with what we know GRRM confirmed with D&D - not that they got it right - but that if they did, and if GRRM gave the nod of approval, then that may be why the clues (which are also in the book) are starting to slowly seep into the show, particularly this season with Oberyn's arrival onto the scene.

It's just debate and conjecture. :)

Placing 'objective facts' in quotes is a great example of the passive aggressive behavior you were just condemning.

I also went to the extra step of clarifying precisely which parts of my final post on the topic fell into each category - the fact that you continue to misrepresent it as a means to attack me is completely inexcusable at this point.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

Those "objective facts" if I remember correctly were your opinion that six seconds of dialogue in Oberyn's entire speech were not relevant to the topic of discussion in comparison to the rest of his dialogue. Someone quoted you the question that the OP asked and we then politely disagreed with you. Shake your head all you like it's still just your opinion. That's the part that starts to get you into trouble because you insist your perspective on it is fact while everyone else's is simply argument and irrelevant. That's not good debate.

But as someone else said, let's move on. I'd hate for the topic to be locked or more posts deleted because you keep shaking your head and eye-rolling and you're the only one unable to take it for what it is: important to other viewers / readers but not yourself.

And again, I'm not a demanding R+L=J shipper who refuses to see anything else. I'm the one that pointed out Oberyn's speech was important for many reasons and that the bit where he states Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together is equally important for various reasons aside from the revenge he's seeking for Elia and children's heinous murders. I like the fact it's still up to debate and still a mystery.

The side debate about D&D's 'quiz' was just more conjecture about whether or not the clues we're being given in the show correlate with what we know GRRM confirmed with D&D - not that they got it right - but that if they did, and if GRRM gave the nod of approval, then that may be why the clues (which are also in the book) are starting to slowly seep into the show, particularly this season with Oberyn's arrival onto the scene.

It's just debate and conjecture. :)

Good post. L+R=J is definitely still debatable.

[Le Cygne]

Kind of interesting if Oberyn overstated the depth of Elia's feelings (did she really love him), yet didn't overstate the worst thing Rhaegar did (leave her for another woman).

The official app:

Elia's section:

"Elia and Rhaegar's relations were amiable, but it was not a love match."

Rhaegar's section:

"He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips."

[tsarrast]

This probably didn't need to be reposted after you already had it deleted once.

The topic of this conversation is Oberyn and Tyrion's conversation, not the validity of R+L=J. You're 100% wrong about my opinion on R+L=J because you're taking my comments about one subject and inferring a meaning about another (the irony of which is absolutely beautiful, btw).

iheartseverus clearly gets it, others of you clearly do not, I think we're all quite eager to move on from this particular aspect of the discussion.

How am I wrong about your opinion? You seem to be arguing against R+L=J, and if you aren't then what's the point of everything you are doing? You are just trying to point out how this bit from the episode DOESN'T prove it ... although it's been independently proven elsewhere and you believe in it? Is that what you are claiming here? That seems convoluted and somewhat pointless from your end.

I never said, as you seem to claim in a prior post, that this episode confirmed R+L=J .. it's just one more bit of evidence... like 500th straw on the haystack. I believe R+L=J but realize it hasn't been confirmed. This is why I said "The show all but confirmed R+L=J theory imo in Ep1 of Season 4 that just came out last sunday, Oberyn says that Rheagar ran off with another woman. This can only be Lyanna - and the show is obviously laying the groundwork for this reveal." That was my initial post. I could be surprised... at this point I don't think I will be obviously, that's precisely why I would be SURPRISED if R+L\=J. So that's me saying from ground zero it HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED.

Your next post seemed to take objection with the willingness of Lyanna to go with Rhaegar, and really only that point. And that what Oberyn said didn't say whether or not she was abducted or she absconded willingly. Fair point. The problem is it actually doesn't contradict anything I said in my post. I said "rhaegar went off with Lyanna" ... could have been an abduction or elopement. It isn't really important to my point that this adds evidence to the R+L=J fire. That's exactly what I started saying in my next post.

So you quoted me in order to make a point which doesn't contradict anything I said in my initial post, then you even claimed I "heard what I wanted" out of Oberyn's words. Ironic, you just did that with me.... and I've shown how I didn't do that with Oberyn.

So I respond saying that whether she eloped or kidnapped isn't important - because it wasn't to my point - the point is that rhaeger left with Lyanna and they had at least a child that's now called Jon Snow! I wasn't trying to make any claim as to whether it was an abduction or not.

Then you post telling me that I'm losing you here... maybe I wasn't explaining things as clearly as I am now... but I was making a post that was about R+L=J, not about the abduction or not of Lyanna... but since you kept moving the argument to that point, I eventually responded to that... as many other posters... like 96buck who made a concise but relevant post "Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna and apparent opportunity to father a child are established. Her return interest, while morally preferable, is not physically necessary."

Other posters like Envie step in to basically guard the exact point that I made and we're all making.... I'll repeat again... we all believe R+L=J, we know it isn't confirmed, and think this is a strong piece of evidence to throw in to the large file.

​You respond saying we are all desperately looking for any evidence for affirmation...

really? This Oberyn conversation is desperate evidence? Many posters immediately chimed in and had the argument you wanted to have, and said that the conversation - despite it's brevity - does indeed help show that Oberyn doesn't believe she was kidnapped and forced to go against her will... after all he calls Rhaegar beautiful AND noble... and merely says that he "left her for another woman". I, just like many other posters, think this very strongly implies that he didn't kidnap her... you're right it doesn't literally mean that, but it would be strange to say only this if you knew that Rhaegar also kidnapped and raped Lyanna.

I personally didn't want to have that discussion with my initial post, which was why your disagreement sounded a lot like R+L=/J. But thanks for unnecessarily using my post to try and prove your point. Coincidentally, I do believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped willingly, but that one I believe less strongly than R+L=J.

I was also confused by this bit of conversation: """

tsarrast, on 11 Apr 2014 - 11:20 PM, said:

Her willingness to participate is not really the point - the fact that Oberyn is discussing this independently is further confirmation of the event... and the way he says it strongly implies that from his point of view Rhaegar went off as part of a willing relationship... and even the method they are dropping these clues on the show is pointing towards a later future reveal.

Well that's where you lose me. If her willingness to participate isn't the point, then how does anything he said in E01 "all but confirm" R+L=J?

We already heard from one source that Rhaegar kidnapped and ran off with Lyanna. Now we have from another source that Rhaegar left his wife for another woman (presumably Lyanna). Isn't Rhaegar a willing participant in either scenario?"""

this is one of your previous requotes where it appears you just want to start an argument... how do I lose you? I'm saying that her willingness isn't important to to the point ... and of course Rhaegar is a willing participant in either scenario - his willingness to participate Isn't a question - it's her willingness to participate that isn't central to the R+L=J issue. Either she was abducted or she absconded willingly - either way they went off together and I believe had Jon Snow. That's my point. That's what buck96 answered you saying as well. How is that unclear????

And in ANOTHER thread where it seems I was having the conversation you want to have... I posted this to respond to you, which you didn't seem to want to respond there, despite the fact that you are answering every post I make in THIS thread:

"I just cannot believe that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

Firstly it doesn't fit Rhaegar's personality profile. He isn't one of the crazy Targarayans... he was bookwormish until he decided to take up fighting... than he became a great fighter. All the POV's that knew him well (like Selmy) - all speak very highly about him, especially that he was honorable. He's also the crown prince, and a handsome man by all accounts. Why on Earth would he need or want to kidnap Lyanna and run off with her? Because he can? I don't buy that at all - and I don't think it makes sense. Sure it hasn't been disproven - and it is what Robert's saying - but Robert is the most biased of basically everybody who discusses the subject - and it seems even Ned doesn't want to confirm Robert's POV on the subject.

Secondly, Lyanna isn't really the type to be kidnapped and just submit. She's discussed as a wild spirit, one who perhaps wouldn't go along with a situation like that - would try escaping, fight, etc... even abort the child in some way if she got pregnant through rape. Now this is much more assumption on my part, but I still think some of these things are possible and it's further reason to discount the kidnap theory.

It just makes a lot more sense that they ran off together. Lyanna bc she was of course promised to Robert (who she told Ned wouldn't change - it sounds like she didn't love him)... and Rhaegar bc of course he's married already! It sounds like the type of thing that would be secret / happen suddenly / not discussed with others... which is exactly how it sounds when you hear other characters talking about it.

I'd love to bet anyone that believes she was kidnapped as much as they want at even money that if it's ever proven through book canon, that she eloped as opposed to being kidnapped. It just feels rather obvious."