Oberyn & Tyrion discussion re Rhaegar & Elia [Book Spoilers]

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, at least Ned and Robert had each other. Nedbert.

"Why are you looking at me like that?"

"You remind me of someone..."

"...my sister?"

"Yes...."

"Ok... I... I think I'll return to the North and... never come back. Cheers, take care, byes".

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Her willingness to participate is not really the point - the fact that Oberyn is discussing this independently is further confirmation of the event... and the way he says it strongly implies that from his point of view Rhaegar went off as part of a willing relationship... and even the method they are dropping these clues on the show is pointing towards a later future reveal.

Well that's where you lose me. If her willingness to participate isn't the point, then how does anything he said in E01 "all but confirm" R+L=J?

We already heard from one source that Rhaegar kidnapped and ran off with Lyanna. Now we have from another source that Rhaegar left his wife for another woman (presumably Lyanna). Isn't Rhaegar a willing participant in either scenario?

[iheartseverus]

Well, at least Ned and Robert had each other. Nedbert.

Robbard?

[Lady Winter Rose]

My take on this was that they excluded Elia and Oberyn's visit to Casterly Rock where she 'coo'ed over baby Tyrion, and they had to introduce Elia's maternal instincts somehow.

It is better when they changed this.

[Rhaquentis]

I'm hoping for more info on the Elia/Rhaegar/Lyanna triangle with the Oberyn/Cercei conversation. I feel like the Unsullied don't know enough about them, especially who is who. It must be so confusing for them; at least I inform my Unsullied friends when needed (without spoiling) :P

[iknownothingjonsnow]

As a gambling man (I play poker for a living) ... i think it's over 90% that R+L=J ... and I'd be willing to lay 8:1 on it.

I'm no pro, I'd be extra careful betting against anyone who has already shown me 5 kings...

['96Buck]

Well that's where you lose me. If her willingness to participate isn't the point, then how does anything he said in E01 "all but confirm" R+L=J?

We already heard from one source that Rhaegar kidnapped and ran off with Lyanna. Now we have from another source that Rhaegar left his wife for another woman (presumably Lyanna). Isn't Rhaegar a willing participant in either scenario?

Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna and apparent opportunity to father a child are established. Her return interest, while morally preferable, is not physically necessary.

[Envie]

For the record, D&D "passed the Wonka test." I'm not aware that anyone has ever confirmed that they correctly guessed Jon Snow's parents.

I think the closest 'hint' I've seen that D&D passed the test was in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2p9dRl0yYo

Here, they state that when George asked them "So who do you think is Jon Snow's real Mother?" ... and they both gave him their best guess after which George slowly smiled and said they were "IN" for making the show.

Now obviously - they didn't actually say (and refused humorously to even hint) whether their guess was right or not. Maybe George didn't even tell them whether their answer was right or not at that point.

I think the obvious assumption is that because George agreed to let them make the show, they must have gotten the answer to Jon's Mother question correct.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

I think the closest 'hint' I've seen that D&D passed the test was in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2p9dRl0yYo

Here, they state that when George asked them "So who do you think is Jon Snow's real Mother?" ... and they both gave him their best guess after which George slowly smiled and said they were "IN" for making the show.

Now obviously - they didn't actually say (and refused humorously to even hint) whether their guess was right or not. Maybe George didn't even tell them whether their answer was right or not at that point.

I think the obvious assumption is that because George agreed to let them make the show, they must have gotten the answer to Jon's Mother question correct.

"Who is Jon Snow's mother?" wasn't the test, it was the question. The test was "Have you absorbed and contemplated the material in my books?" They clearly passed the test - only GRRM knows whether they correctly answered the question.

[Envie]

"Who is Jon Snow's mother?" wasn't the test, it was the question. The test was "Have you absorbed and contemplated the material in my books?" They clearly passed the test - only GRRM knows whether they correctly answered the question.

Yes it was the question but also a test to see if D&D could theorize and speculate as well (or deeply) as long time book fans have done. The actual answer probably didn't even matter that much to George - he was testing to see if they had the brains to interpret the story as deeply as he would want someone to do when bringing it to life on screen.

And I agree the only person who knows if they answered correctly is GRRM himself.

[tsarrast]

I think the closest 'hint' I've seen that D&D passed the test was in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2p9dRl0yYo

Here, they state that when George asked them "So who do you think is Jon Snow's real Mother?" ... and they both gave him their best guess after which George slowly smiled and said they were "IN" for making the show.

Now obviously - they didn't actually say (and refused humorously to even hint) whether their guess was right or not. Maybe George didn't even tell them whether their answer was right or not at that point.

I think the obvious assumption is that because George agreed to let them make the show, they must have gotten the answer to Jon's Mother question correct.

^^ this!! I've seen this video before and others, and imo you just aren't picking up on obvious clues here if you want to continue believing that they probably didn't get the answer correct. They probably did. Thank you Envie for the further evidence.

by the way - when asked "who's the real mother?" - the answer is "I can't tell" ... which implies that he knows but can't say ... as opposed to "i don't know".

[iknownothingjonsnow]

^^ this!! I've seen this video before and others, and imo you just aren't picking up on obvious clues here if you want to continue believing that they probably didn't get the answer correct. They probably did. Thank you Envie for the further evidence.

by the way - when asked "who's the real mother?" - the answer is "I can't tell" ... which implies that he knows but can't say ... as opposed to "i don't know".

Whatever he says, it's definitely not "I can tell" (sounds more like "couldn't").

It doesn't matter anyway - whatever D&D knew then versus what they know now has nothing to do with the fact that show!Oberyn confirmed R+L=J to the people who are desperately looking for any type of affirmation, and it did absolutely nothing for those of us who care about the words he actually said instead of just what we want to hear.

[Le Cygne]

That she went willingly matters, but that expression is used to indicate a consensual relationship. If it wasn't consensual, that would be quite remarkable, and Oberyn would remark upon it. Especially since he's trying to make Rhaegar look bad.

"My sister loved him... Beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman."

She loved him... But he loved someone else.

Beautiful and noble, they say, but he left her for another woman. That's the worst he could come up with.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

That she went willingly matters, but that expression is used to indicate a consensual relationship. If it wasn't consensual, that would be quite remarkable, and Oberyn would remark upon it. Especially since he's trying to make Rhaegar look bad.

"My sister loved him... Beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman."

She loved him... But he loved someone else.

Beautiful and noble, they say, but he left her for another woman. That's the worst he could come up with.

I completely agree with your assessment of Oberlyn's feelings about the situation, I just completely disagree with its application to this scene. From the time he start's hearing the Lannister guy sing until he and Tyrion finish talking, it is literally 5 minutes of hammering home the fact that The Red Viper hates the Lannisters.

The line you quote is 6 seconds out of a 90 second monologue which is entirely about his hatred of and planned vengeance against Tywin Lannister. Why do you think those 6 seconds are his focus and the remaining 84 are not? Wouldn't logic suggest that it's the other way around?

[Le Cygne]

Nobody said they were the focus. I suppose everyone wanted to talk about Jon Snow's mama for some reason, could be we think it's important.

[Envie]

I completely agree with your assessment of Oberlyn's feelings about the situation, I just completely disagree with its application to this scene. From the time he start's hearing the Lannister guy sing until he and Tyrion finish talking, it is literally 5 minutes of hammering home the fact that The Red Viper hates the Lannisters.

The line you quote is 6 seconds out of a 90 second monologue which is entirely about his hatred of and planned vengeance against Tywin Lannister. Why do you think those 6 seconds are his focus and the remaining 84 are not? Wouldn't logic suggest that it's the other way around?

Just because that one line is only six seconds doesn't mean it's -not- important either. People who are trying to glean clues out of the show and the books have spent years piecing these sorts of brief clues together from the author as well as the show writers. Sometimes they write things in simply for drama effect and other times they write things in as plot tools. The show writers have to be very thrifty with what they write in due to time constraints whereas GRRM has thousands of pages to convey his clues. IF they decided to put that line in there for Oberyn's little talk with Tyrion (which is what this topic is about) then it must have some significance to the plot. Either they felt it was important to show the Martell's perspective on that terrible event so long ago that started a war, or they are hinting at clues to one of the greatest unsolved mysteries in the book. So great in fact it was the ONE question Mr. Martin put under the writers feet and lit on fire when interviewing them for the job.

Now you tell me, was that not an important six seconds of information (even if it was just his opinion) in relation to the entire story overall? If it was just a red herring, it wasn't a very good one considering the years and years worth of references and hints otherwise.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Just because that one line is only six seconds doesn't mean it's -not- important either. People who are trying to glean clues out of the show and the books have spent years piecing these sorts of brief clues together from the author as well as the show writers. Sometimes they write things in simply for drama effect and other times they write things in as plot tools. The show writers have to be very thrifty with what they write in due to time constraints whereas GRRM has thousands of pages to convey his clues. IF they decided to put that line in there for Oberyn's little talk with Tyrion (which is what this topic is about) then it must have some significance to the plot. Either they felt it was important to show the Martell's perspective on that terrible event so long ago that started a war, or they are hinting at clues to one of the greatest unsolved mysteries in the book. So great in fact it was the ONE question Mr. Martin put under the writers feet and lit on fire when interviewing them for the job.

Now you tell me, was that not an important six seconds of information (even if it was just his opinion) in relation to the entire story overall? If it was just a red herring, it wasn't a very good one considering the years and years worth of references and hints otherwise.

I'm saying that the point of Oberyn's monologue (and that entire scene) was that he plans to seek revenge against Tywin Lannister for ordering the Mountain to rape and kill Elia, and it is therefore completely illogical to infer anything even remotely conclusive from something that he didn't say about a completely unrelated topic.

It was an important six seconds in that we learned that Rhaegar was once married to someone other than Lyanna, and it explained why he was not there to protect Elia or her children. Since we already knew that something happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna to spark the war, and since Oberlyn said nothing at all to clarify the nature of their relationship, the only way it is at all important to R+L=J is that it did nothing to disprove it.

Considering the frenzy it has caused amongst people who heard what they wanted to hear rather than what he actually said, why would you consider that to be a poor red herring? I'd imagine D&D are doing jumping jacks right now since they know they can simply head fake in one direction and you guys will apparently run there full speed.

[Envie]

I'm saying that the point of Oberyn's monologue (and that entire scene) was that he plans to seek revenge against Tywin Lannister for ordering the Mountain to rape and kill Elia, and it is therefore completely illogical to infer anything even remotely conclusive from something that he didn't say about a completely unrelated topic.

Well the only thing we agree on here is that yes the main point of the monologue from Oberyn to Tyrion was to convey a sense of dread that he's seeking vengeance against the Lannisters. It's a serious problem since the Martells did not seek war against the Lannisters and instead pledged fealty to Robert Baratheon at the risk of being defeated by the larger forces now occupying King's Landing. Doran Martell wisely withdrew from the fight even though the Martells were outraged and have waited all this time for a reason (even secretly supporting the Targaryen revival) to get their paybacks.

However, I disagree with your point made about Rhaegar's apparenty abandonment of Elia Martell as unrelated. I think they are very related and very relevant regardless of whether or not they are Jon Snows parents. I never actually anywhere in my debating in this thread said I believe it indicates R+L=J (though others shipped it via quoting me).

The fact that Oberyn believes Rhaegar took off with Lyanna rather than kidnapped her is very telling and a very important clue for many reasons revolving around the rebellion - not only because of Jon Snow's potential connection as a possible Targaryen himself but it does add to the excitement.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Well the only thing we agree on here is that yes the main point of the monologue from Oberyn to Tyrion was to convey a sense of dread that he's seeking vengeance against the Lannisters. It's a serious problem since the Martells did not seek war against the Lannisters and instead pledged fealty to Robert Baratheon at the risk of being defeated by the larger forces now occupying King's Landing. Doran Martell wisely withdrew from the fight even though the Martells were outraged and have waited all this time for a reason (even secretly supporting the Targaryen revival) to get their paybacks.

However, I disagree with your point made about Rhaegar's apparenty abandonment of Elia Martell as unrelated. I think they are very related and very relevant regardless of whether or not they are Jon Snows parents. I never actually anywhere in my debating in this thread said I believe it indicates R+L=J (though others shipped it via quoting me).

The fact that Oberyn believes Rhaegar took off with Lyanna rather than kidnapped her is very telling and a very important clue for many reasons revolving around the rebellion - not only because of Jon Snow's potential connection as a possible Targaryen himself but it does add to the excitement.

I wasn't necessarily ascribing R+L=J to you, but the general consensus here seems to be that Oberyn confirmed that Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship was mutual, which confirms R+L=J. That was the context of my earlier comment to which you originally replied.

I'm going to try to make this my last post on the topic because I'm incredibly frustrated with my inability to adequately convey what seems to me to be an incredibly obvious and self-evident point (that is also not directed specifically at you): We have no idea whether Oberyn believes that Rhaegar left with Lyanna as opposed to kidnapping her.

Oberyn said "Rhaegar Targaryen left [Elia] for another woman," which you and many others are interpreting as "Rhaegar Targaryen ran off with another woman." That's fine, you're allowed to interpret things however you want, but I'm stating as an objective point of fact that you are inferring a meaning from his words that may or may not be valid.

I'm then offering my opinion that Lyanna had nothing to do with the point Oberyn was making, as supported by the fact that he didn't even mention her name, and that his failure to declare Rhaegar a kidnapper and a rapist does nothing to prove or disprove those charges, as the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship (as well as any of Rhaegar's other misdeeds unrelated to Elia) also had nothing to do with the point he was making.

I would also suggest that, being such a significant underlying element of ASOIAF, D&D are likely to choose every related word very carefully, thus making the ambiguity of Oberyn's word choice more, not less, suspect IMO.

I hope that's clear. If it's not, no biggie, carry on.

[Angalin]

Play nicely, children, or the thread gets closed and a few people go on holiday.