Oberyn & Tyrion discussion re Rhaegar & Elia [Book Spoilers]

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Nobody said they were the focus. I suppose everyone wanted to talk about Jon Snow's mama for some reason, could be we think it's important.

They never said who was the woman. An Unsullied friend didn't know who such woman was. He even asked me "the Red Witch?" (and he's quite smart about these things like details in shows and books, I've read him debate for years). And I have the feeling he's not the only one.

[iheartseverus]

To actually discuss the Tyrion-Oberyn encounter (finally, thank you, Angalin) it was interesting that the show made it clear Tyrion of course knew all the details of what the Lannisters had done, and looked...embarrassed, ashamed, didn't really have a defense to Oberyn's charges of Lannister outrages. I think the show is building up, and will continue to build up, bit by bit, episode by episode as the season progresses, Tyrion's final irrevocable turn on his family, and it started here. Dinklage had a masterful performance when the arriving Martell contingent informed him that Doran wasn't coming, that Oberyn was here in his place. Without a word, his eyes went...holy fuck, oh, crap, damn, shit. Very nicely done, Mr. Dinklage, without a single word. I think the season will show a relentless undercurrent of Tyrion's love (need?) for his family turn to the ultimate murderous hate. The accusation, imprisonment and trial, of course, the danger to Shae from Tywin, and I'm just guessing here, a bit more from Oberyn about what vicious shits the Lannisters really are.

The show's doing a good job, IMO, building, a brick at a time, Tyrion's final whip-around against his family. I keep thinking of Drogon's out-of nowhere whirl around and snap at Dany. Get the fuck off me, I don't take your orders any more. That's where Tyrion is going, and IMO this Tyrion-Oberyn scene started the ball rolling, very nicely.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

To actually discuss the Tyrion-Oberyn encounter (finally, thank you, Angalin) it was interesting that the show made it clear Tyrion of course knew all the details of what the Lannisters had done, and looked...embarrassed, ashamed, didn't really have a defense to Oberyn's charges of Lannister outrages. I think the show is building up, and will continue to build up, bit by bit, episode by episode as the season progresses, Tyrion's final irrevocable turn on his family, and it started here. Dinklage had a masterful performance when the arriving Martell contingent informed him that Doran wasn't coming, that Oberyn was here in his place. Without a word, his eyes went...holy fuck, oh, crap, damn, shit. Very nicely done, Mr. Dinklage, without a single word. I think the season will show a relentless undercurrent of Tyrion's love (need?) for his family turn to the ultimate murderous hate. The accusation, imprisonment and trial, of course, the danger to Shae from Tywin, and I'm just guessing here, a bit more from Oberyn about what vicious shits the Lannisters really are.

The show's doing a good job, IMO, building, a brick at a time, Tyrion's final whip-around against his family. I keep thinking of Drogon's out-of nowhere whirl around and snap at Dany. Get the fuck off me, I don't take your orders any more. That's where Tyrion is going, and IMO this Tyrion-Oberyn scene started the ball rolling, very nicely.

Indeed, I think Tyrion had an evolutionary moment there. Something key happened in his break from the Lannisters..

[Le Cygne]

The fact that Oberyn believes Rhaegar took off with Lyanna rather than kidnapped her is very telling and a very important clue for many reasons revolving around the rebellion - not only because of Jon Snow's potential connection as a possible Targaryen himself but it does add to the excitement.

I think it's very important, too. A picture develops over time.

Here is the OP:

It has been a while since I last read the books and my memory of the conversation between Prince Oberyn and Tyrion is failing me. In this episode when they are talking to each other and when Oberyn brings up his sisters wedding he mentions about her husband prince Rhaegar leaving Elia for another girl, is this the first hint we are given that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna or am I reading too much into it.

It is a hint, because of the way Oberyn words what he says. What the characters don't say is meaningful, too. The show did establish that something happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna before. Another little suggestion, and they all add up.

Like here, notably, Ned doesn't agree with Robert. He says basically, let's not go there. Oberyn says his sister loved him, but he loved someone else (he left her for another woman, that's not how you would describe a kidnapping).

Here's the scene (Sean Bean is so good, he turns his head away when Robert says she belonged with him):

Ned: She was my sister, this is where she belongs.

Robert: She belonged with me. In my dreams, I kill him every night.

Ned: It's done, your grace.

[tsarrast]

Is it right iknownothingjohnsnow when you say that "R+L=J believers" are looking for evidence to prove it...

Listen, I first found the theory by reading many well done posts by people on this forum - it wasn't my own pet idea that I'm trying to prove to stoke my ego - and the amount of evidence is overwhelming really. That's what convinced me. Reading logic/fact-based statements which provide sound arguments backed up by tons and tons of evidence. This Oberyn quote is but one more log to throw on the fire... at this point, I actually feel the other way around, you have to be looking for evidence that somehow disproves it to make your point (is there really much of this?)

But, I understand that I won't sway your opinion, no more evidence will - iknownothingjohnsnow you are on every forum page arguing your point... so I'm going to stop arguing with you. I will do this, put my money where my mouth is:

You can have up to 2000$ on each of the following bets:

1) R+L=J

2) That Lyanna eloped willingly with Rhaegar (wasn't kidnapped and forced to go against her will)

You say that we are grasping at straws, trying to use every potential clue to prove our points... I say that the sum of these potential clues adds up to overwhelming textual evidence, and that you have to be a logic/fact denier (what do you think about evolution btw??) at this point not to see the obvious truth. But, instead of trying to convince you any further, I'd rather just take your money... just call it a gambler's habit.

Obviously if we do this we escrow the money with someone/somewhere.

[tsarrast]

I think it's very important, too. A picture develops over time.

Here is the OP:

It is a hint, because of the way Oberyn words what he says. What the characters don't say is meaningful, too. The show did establish that something happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna before. Another little suggestion, and they all add up.

Like here, notably, Ned doesn't agree with Robert. He says basically, let's not go there. Oberyn says his sister loved him, but he loved someone else (he left her for another woman, that's not how you would describe a kidnapping).

Here's the scene (Sean Bean is so good, he turns his head away when Robert says she belonged with him):

sean bean is good as ned, isn't he? i'm going to have to rewatch that scene - what episode is it from cygne?

[Woman of War]

To actually discuss the Tyrion-Oberyn encounter (finally, thank you, Angalin) it was interesting that the show made it clear Tyrion of course knew all the details of what the Lannisters had done, and looked...embarrassed, ashamed, didn't really have a defense to Oberyn's charges of Lannister outrages. I think the show is building up, and will continue to build up, bit by bit, episode by episode as the season progresses, Tyrion's final irrevocable turn on his family, and it started here. Dinklage had a masterful performance when the arriving Martell contingent informed him that Doran wasn't coming, that Oberyn was here in his place. Without a word, his eyes went...holy fuck, oh, crap, damn, shit. Very nicely done, Mr. Dinklage, without a single word. I think the season will show a relentless undercurrent of Tyrion's love (need?) for his family turn to the ultimate murderous hate. The accusation, imprisonment and trial, of course, the danger to Shae from Tywin, and I'm just guessing here, a bit more from Oberyn about what vicious shits the Lannisters really are.

The show's doing a good job, IMO, building, a brick at a time, Tyrion's final whip-around against his family. I keep thinking of Drogon's out-of nowhere whirl around and snap at Dany. Get the fuck off me, I don't take your orders any more. That's where Tyrion is going, and IMO this Tyrion-Oberyn scene started the ball rolling, very nicely.

Very perceptive post

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Is it right iknownothingjohnsnow when you say that "R+L=J believers" are looking for evidence to prove it...

Listen, I first found the theory by reading many well done posts by people on this forum - it wasn't my own pet idea that I'm trying to prove to stoke my ego - and the amount of evidence is overwhelming really. That's what convinced me. Reading logic/fact-based statements which provide sound arguments backed up by tons and tons of evidence. This Oberyn quote is but one more log to throw on the fire... at this point, I actually feel the other way around, you have to be looking for evidence that somehow disproves it to make your point (is there really much of this?)

But, I understand that I won't sway your opinion, no more evidence will - iknownothingjohnsnow you are on every forum page arguing your point... so I'm going to stop arguing with you. I will do this, put my money where my mouth is:

You can have up to 2000$ on each of the following bets:

1) R+L=J

2) That Lyanna eloped willingly with Rhaegar (wasn't kidnapped and forced to go against her will)

You say that we are grasping at straws, trying to use every potential clue to prove our points... I say that the sum of these potential clues adds up to overwhelming textual evidence, and that you have to be a logic/fact denier (what do you think about evolution btw??) at this point not to see the obvious truth. But, instead of trying to convince you any further, I'd rather just take your money... just call it a gambler's habit.

Obviously if we do this we escrow the money with someone/somewhere.

This probably didn't need to be reposted after you already had it deleted once.

The topic of this conversation is Oberyn and Tyrion's conversation, not the validity of R+L=J. You're 100% wrong about my opinion on R+L=J because you're taking my comments about one subject and inferring a meaning about another (the irony of which is absolutely beautiful, btw).

iheartseverus clearly gets it, others of you clearly do not, I think we're all quite eager to move on from this particular aspect of the discussion.

[iheartseverus]

iheartseverus clearly gets it, others of you clearly do not, I think we're all quite eager to move on from this particular aspect of the discussion.

So, let us do that, forthwith. Moving on, lets here keep track of the various times and scenes in the coming episodes where we see Tyrion being ashamed/embarrassed/angry with his family. All of which is the show's build-up to the ultimate whang.

[Le Cygne]

The topic of the thread, according to the OP: "is this the first hint we are given that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna"?

Is this a hint, yes. Is it the first, no.

sean bean is good as ned, isn't he? i'm going to have to rewatch that scene - what episode is it from cygne?

He's wonderful! Those little things he does. It's from the pilot.

[Dany's Silver]

iknownothingjohnsnow - whether she ran off willingly or was kidnapped isn't that important... what is important is simply that rhaegar left with another woman. At this point it's near certain that this woman is Lyanna Stark. Given that they were together - that Robert think he kidnapped her - and that's why Brandon & father went to King's Landing, were executed, etc... it'd be just terrible story telling to have this "mystery woman" be anyone other than Lyanna at this point.

Her willingness to participate is not really the point - the fact that Oberyn is discussing this independently is further confirmation of the event... and the way he says it strongly implies that from his point of view Rhaegar went off as part of a willing relationship... and even the method they are dropping these clues on the show is pointing towards a later future reveal.

I've also watched a number of interviews ... and I think it's implied that D&D correctly guessed who it was - although you are correct not confirmed... but the fact that GRRM asked them that question specifically, and then later decided to do the show with them... and that they specifically bring that question up when discussing that first interview with GRRM... add it all together and I think they probably got the answer right.

As a gambling man (I play poker for a living) ... i think it's over 90% that R+L=J ... and I'd be willing to lay 8:1 on it.

I saw D&D say (somewhere on youtube, but I can't remember exactly which video) that at first GRRM didn't confirm that their guess (whatever it was) was correct at their initial lunch meeting, but that at a later date GRRM confirmed they were correct. If I find the right video, I will post the link. :D

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

This probably didn't need to be reposted after you already had it deleted once.

The topic of this conversation is Oberyn and Tyrion's conversation, not the validity of R+L=J. You're 100% wrong about my opinion on R+L=J because you're taking my comments about one subject and inferring a meaning about another (the irony of which is absolutely beautiful, btw).

iheartseverus clearly gets it, others of you clearly do not, I think we're all quite eager to move on from this particular aspect of the discussion.

Right, everyone who agrees with you 'gets it', and anyone who doesn't agree with you is 'clueless'. Great recipe for always being right. ;)

[Centrist Simon Steele]

After botching Oberyn's introduction by the awful brothel scene culminated with him suddenly, pornographically, making out with the bastard lady when Tyrion shows up, I was like "great, another terrible twist in the terrible show." But then the conversation about Rhaegar and Elia...really well done. Though I don't remember that specifically from the books, I thought it captured the tone of the story so well. Too bad the showrunners haven't been building up the Mountain the entire time, because most non-book readers are all like "who?" when he is mentioned. I think it'll lack dramatic tension when the Oberyn showdown finally comes because of lack of build up, similar to the Red Wedding. Hopefully it won't be so Evil Dead comedic like the Red Wedding.

But Oberyn's little monologue was pretty great.

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

After botching Oberyn's introduction by the awful brothel scene culminated with him suddenly, pornographically, making out with the bastard lady when Tyrion shows up, I was like "great, another terrible twist in the terrible show." But then the conversation about Rhaegar and Elia...really well done. Though I don't remember that specifically from the books, I thought it captured the tone of the story so well. Too bad the showrunners haven't been building up the Mountain the entire time, because most non-book readers are all like "who?" when he is mentioned. I think it'll lack dramatic tension when the Oberyn showdown finally comes because of lack of build up, similar to the Red Wedding. Hopefully it won't be so Evil Dead comedic like the Red Wedding.

But Oberyn's little monologue was pretty great.

I feel the same way about Gregor. He's basically been just a red shirt so far [complete with a different actor for each season]. The battle would be more suspenseful if both characters were more developed. Maybe The Mountain will get some dialogue before that episode. :)

[iheartseverus]

^^ We've seen interviews where the showrunners talked about having to 'tone down' a too-violent, too disgusting scene in ep. 4. Maybe we'll see Gregor in action there (although, it could well be Ramsay's dogs tearing a girl apart during his hunt, who knows.)

Personally, my favorite guess for the 'too violent, too disgusting' scene was this one, from a post over at WiC:

Littlefinger and Lysa having sex?

:P

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

^^ We've seen interviews where the showrunners talked about having to 'tone down' a too-violent, too disgusting scene in ep. 4. Maybe we'll see Gregor in action there (although, it could well be Ramsay's dogs tearing a girl apart during his hunt, who knows.)

Personally, my favorite guess for the 'too violent, too disgusting' scene was this one, from a post over at WiC:

:P

You don't have to worry, I actually sent D + D the deed to my house in return for them never showing a littlefinger sex scene. We should be safe. :)

[iheartseverus]

We should be safe. :)

Famous words. Ned, Jory, Maester Luwin, Catelyn, Robb, Grey Wind, Lady, Micah, VIserys, Drogo, Xaxos, Doreah, Ros, Jon Arryn.

:leaving:

[P. frontalis chiripepe]

Famous words. Ned, Jory, Maester Luwin, Catelyn, Robb, Grey Wind, Lady, Micah, VIserys, Drogo, Xaxos, Doreah, Ros, Jon Arryn.

:leaving:

True. And Egon from Ghostbusters too!

[Envie]

Right, everyone who agrees with you 'gets it', and anyone who doesn't agree with you is 'clueless'. Great recipe for always being right. ;)

Sadly that always seems to be the case on these forums. Disagreeing is not allowed. You have to ignore them and their opinion or risk having your posts deleted. All that does is reinforce passive aggressive behavior in which "You can't disagree with me for fear of deletion therefore I am right."

[iknownothingjonsnow]

Sadly that always seems to be the case on these forums. Disagreeing is not allowed. You have to ignore them and their opinion or risk having your posts deleted. All that does is reinforce passive aggressive behavior in which "You can't disagree with me for fear of deletion therefore I am right."

I have no problem with people disagreeing with my opinion, that's what makes discussing the show fun. It's when you guys argue with objective facts that I shake my head.

So, let us do that, forthwith. Moving on, lets here keep track of the various times and scenes in the coming episodes where we see Tyrion being ashamed/embarrassed/angry with his family. All of which is the show's build-up to the ultimate whang.

It's interesting to compare his conversation with Oberyn to the one he had with Jon Snow on their way to the Wall. Tyrion definitely winces when he hears "until your brother killed that king," but responds with "yes, until my brother killed that king." It's a striking difference from "I've heard rumors," and "I wasn't there, I don't know what happened."