The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose V

[King Benjen II]

Yeahhhhh I didn't buy that either.Lots of holes, it is strange for sure. Why wouldn't Ned just take the body back?

Maybe the cairns are there and the bodies were taken back. But that is contradicted by Ned's memory of Jory's father.

[Ygrain]

To my best memory, no connection between Jon and Dorne is ever mentioned, meaning that people most probably do not know that he was brought from over there and the first time they ever hear of Ned Stark's bastard, it is when Jon already is at Winterfell. And, since the Winterfell staff don't know, either, even though they know of Ned's trip to Starfall, Ned apparently made some precautions on his way back not to be seen travelling with a newborn. A possible scenario is that he entrusted Jon to HR and sent him ahead, either right to Winterfell, or to pick him up somewhere along the way to the North. If they switched wetnurse(s) along the way, once HR returned to the Neck, Ned was the only person in the North who knew the secret.

Concerning Ashara's dishonour, Barristan definitely doesn't think that she was raped:

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

The question of the bodies left at ToJ has been brought up in the forums multiple times and, IMHO, it all boils down to the simple logistics of transporting the corpses in warm climate. We can see a similar dilemma in Barristan's PoV what to do with Quentyn's body: he never considers sending the body as such, only the bones (similarly, Ned brought back Lyanna's bones, not body). Due to the manner of Quentyn's death, he rejects cremation, there are no Silent Sisters available to deflesh the bones, so the remaining option is to let bugs clean the bones.

In Ned's case, he would probably face shortage of fuel, there would be no Silent Sisters around (and I don't see him attempting to deflesh the bones on his own), and bugs take time. Plus, while it is reasonable (to anyone but Lady Dustin) that his own sister gets special treatment, he has to honour all his fallen comrades as well as the KG - if he gave, say, Arthur Dayne special treatment, the Hightowers and Whents would take offence, and so would the Northerners. Best treat them all equally and give them a decent burial right there.

It is not stated whether he built the cairns just by himself (with HR and whoever else was present at ToJ) or whether he sent for his troops (IIRC, it is not stated whether he left his forces at Storms' End or somewhere closer to ToJ). Either way, in order to tear ToJ down, it would certainly help to put it to fire, and once the wooden supporting structure burnt, most of it would collapse on its own.

[Metopheles]

Ned Pov through Bran.. that sounds epic :D

Bran switches into the weirwood beyond the wall, switches into past, switches into the winterfellian weirwood, switches into Eddard..we gettin Inception.. but really, that sounds really awesome.

Further note: Any ideas on Bran's vision with the woman and the sickle?

[Metopheles]

Ygrain

I think pretty much everybody knows Ned's bastard is from Dorne.

That is why this has bugged me forever.

And the bodies.. Well if there were bodies, then the sun of Dorne would have cleared them in less than two months time.

[Ygrain]

Ygrain

I think pretty much everybody knows Ned's bastard is from Dorne.

That is why this has bugged me forever.

And the bodies.. Well if there were bodies, then the sun of Dorne would have cleared them in less than two months time.

They do? Who, where? The closest relating Jon to Dorne is Cersei's "Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?" However, the list she gives indicates pretty much that she doesn't have a clue. Lord Borrell certainly doesn't think that Jon is from Dorne, either.

If you take into consideration that Jon's origin might be unknown, it no longer looks like all of Westeros is carrying an idiot ball. Ned Stark simply has a bastard, up there in the North, whom he conceived during the war, nothing special about that, except that the honourable Ned slipped once.

Yeah, the sun would have solved the problem of decay but I don't think Ned had two months to hang around. Plus, if you want to make a natural mummy, you must make sure that carrions don't mess with it.

[Ygrain]

A thought concerning how much Ned might have learned from Lyanna before she died: she definitely said more than just one sentence. He recalls promises that he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, more than one thing, and the price he paid to keep them. One of the promises was to bury Lyanna in Winterfell but there is hardly a price attached to fulfilling that, so at least two more things, and a little more talk.

[Metopheles]

I think the idea that scavengers come is inevitable. That is just nature.

I still am sure the people who are a bit closer to Eddard, like Cersei, know exactly that the bastard is from Dorne. Many might even assume the Ashara thing is true.

promises... I have no clue what promises they might have been if M=/=R.. not so important ones I'd guess

• take care of my bastard
  
• every fortnight a blue rose on my tomb
  
• name him Visenion in memory of Rhaegar, nick him Jon
  
• protect his claim
  
• protect him from Robert
  
• raise him like your own
  
• Don't you ever say anything negative of the noblest person I ever knew, Rhaegar Targaryen
  
• protect Rhaegar's children(failed to do so. maybe this lead to protection of Daenerys)
  
• When he reaches age, tell him the truth.
  
• Tell him why it all happened
  
• tell Robert I never loved him, I feared him(failed to do so)
  

[Hrafntýr]

Ygrain

I think pretty much everybody knows Ned's bastard is from Dorne.

That is why this has bugged me forever.

There's another solution to the "naming of bastards" thing. Couldn't it be not "where they are born" or "the land of their progenitor" for "where they are raised"? Fixes the problem, if I'm not mistaken or forgetting someone, since it works for Robert's bastards, and other known bastards.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

<p>

I think the idea that scavengers come is inevitable. That is just nature.

I still am sure the people who are a bit closer to Eddard, like Cersei, know exactly that the bastard is from Dorne. Many might even assume the Ashara thing is true.

promises... I have no clue what promises they might have been if M=/=R.. not so important ones I'd guess

• take care of my bastard
• every fortnight a blue rose on my tomb
• name him Visenion in memory of Rhaegar, nick him Jon
• protect his claim
• protect him from Robert
• raise him like your own
• Don't you ever say anything negative of the noblest person I ever knew, Rhaegar Targaryen
• protect Rhaegar's children(failed to do so. maybe this lead to protection of Daenerys)
• When he reaches age, tell him the truth.
• Tell him why it all happened
• tell Robert I never loved him, I feared him(failed to do so)

Also, there was this one...

LYANNA: "Don't you ever even THINK of me and Jon in the same sentence. At least not by name. God forbid your innermost thoughts ever get published from a third-person limited POV - the risk is just too great."

NED: "Uh, Lya... I'm not sure that's..."

LYANNA: "Just promise me, Ned...."

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

NED: "Alright, fine. Whatever. Where do I sign?"

LYANNA: "Right here, on this line. With initials by each item. Oh, shit - this pen is out of ink."

NED: "That's okay, I was going to sign in blood anyway." [Draws dagger across ball of thumb]. "Oops! Sorry..."

LYANNA: "Ugh. Ned! You got blood everywhere. Look, it's all over my bed! Gods damn it..."

[Metopheles]

NED: "Alright, fine. Whatever. Where do I sign?"

LYANNA: "Right here, on this line. With initials by each item. Oh, shit - this pen is out of ink."

NED: "That's okay, I was going to sign in blood anyway." [Draws dagger across ball of thumb]. "Oops! Sorry..."

LYANNA: "Ugh. Ned! You got blood everywhere. Look, it's all over my bed! Gods damn it..."

:bowdown:

I said it elsewhere...If only they had ballpoint pens. Joffrey would live. Joffrey would live.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

There's another solution to the "naming of bastards" thing. Couldn't it be not "where they are born" or "the land of their progenitor" for "where they are raised"? Fixes the problem, if I'm not mistaken or forgetting someone, since it works for Robert's bastards, and other known bastards.

Exactly what I thought. Mya Stone raised in the Vale. Edric Storm raised in the Stormlands. Jon Snow raised in the North.

[Amoracchius]

They do? Who, where? The closest relating Jon to Dorne is Cersei's "Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara?" However, the list she gives indicates pretty much that she doesn't have a clue. Lord Borrell certainly doesn't think that Jon is from Dorne, either.

If you take into consideration that Jon's origin might be unknown, it no longer looks like all of Westeros is carrying an idiot ball. Ned Stark simply has a bastard, up there in the North, whom he conceived during the war, nothing special about that, except that the honourable Ned slipped once.

Yeah, the sun would have solved the problem of decay but I don't think Ned had two months to hang around. Plus, if you want to make a natural mummy, you must make sure that carrions don't mess with it.

I don't think it's commonly accepted that Jon was born in Dorne at all, and Lord Borell is pretty solid evidence of that. If it's widely believed that he was born in Dorne, then the Fisherman's Daughter rumor wouldn't make any sense. Cersei may just have been guessing based on things she heard from Robert over the years, and I agree, her many guesses pretty much confirm that Cersei doesn't actually know much of anything about the identity of Jon's mother.

As for the Snow vs. Sand thing, I'm going to agree with ADWF and say that which bastard name a person takes probably has more to do with where s/he is raised than anything else, as shown by the examples listed.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

If Rhaegar is Jon's father, I think Jon may have been legitimized after the war. If things worked out the way Rhaegar expected there would be no need for marriage.

Now the promises Ned made could be more than to Lyanna. Maybe a promise to L and a promise to a baby J. Two promises one imperfect.

[Yield.]

Rhaegar and co. being at the ToJ does not preclude the Dornish from being angry with him.

I agree she would have prioritized what she said to Ned, but it's really just a few extra words: We were married. In fact, that might well be why the promise is so damn important. If Jon is a bastard he's not really a threat to Robert, but more of an annoyance. But if he's legitimate, he is a very genuine threat to Robert's rule, which means he would be a threat to the Lannister plans to rule. And we know how they deal with threats to their power.

I think she would lead with that, yes. But, as I said above, something like "We were married" is just a few extra words, and emphasizes the need to secure the promise from Ned. If R&L were married, it's pretty important information, and would have been high on the list of things to tell Ned before she died.

It's even easier than this. She could say it all it in one sentence: Protect our true born son. Conveys all Ned needs to know. No need to go into details or the implication of what it means because Ned would know instantly what the ramifications would be should Robert find out.

[Yield.]

There's another solution to the "naming of bastards" thing. Couldn't it be not "where they are born" or "the land of their progenitor" for "where they are raised"? Fixes the problem, if I'm not mistaken or forgetting someone, since it works for Robert's bastards, and other known bastards.

Exactly what I thought. Mya Stone raised in the Vale. Edric Storm raised in the Stormlands. Jon Snow raised in the North.

Just so. And it's proved by Edric Storm being Edric Storm and not Edric Flowers since his mother is a Florent and from the Reach or Edric Waters since he was conceived in Dragonstone, part of the Crownlands. He was raised under Renly's protection at Storm's End, thus Storm. Just as Mya Stone was raised under Jon Arryn's protection at the Vale, or else she would be called Storm if it goes with who daddy was.

[Modesty Lannister]

Just so. And it's proved by Edric Storm being Edric Storm and not Edric Flowers since his mother is a Florent and from the Reach or Edric Waters since he was conceived in Dragonstone, part of the Crownlands. He was raised under Renly's protection at Storm's End, thus Storm. Just as Mya Stone was raised under Jon Arryn's protection at the Vale, or else she would be called Storm if it goes with who daddy was.

It is known. And another proof is that Mance, and many others, call Jon "Basterd of Winterfell". Subsequently, the location trumps ancestry and rightly so, because generally speaking, ancestry of bastards is often unknown, mothers can travel from place to place in order to support the child, so the only thing that matters is where a bastard actually lives before their adulthood.

[King Benjen II]

Also, there was this one...

LYANNA: "Don't you ever even THINK of me and Jon in the same sentence. At least not by name. God forbid your innermost thoughts ever get published from a third-person limited POV - the risk is just too great."

NED: "Uh, Lya... I'm not sure that's..."

LYANNA: "Just promise me, Ned...."

Lmao. Poor Ned died thinking Targ Madness was contagious.

Lyanna: Promise me Ned...don't ever let Danaerys leave Mereen.

But teach her to tie a proper Mereeneese Knot ;)

Ok this just got kinda f*cked up...

[Yield.]

To my best memory, no connection between Jon and Dorne is ever mentioned, meaning that people most probably do not know that he was brought from over there and the first time they ever hear of Ned Stark's bastard, it is when Jon already is at Winterfell. And, since the Winterfell staff don't know, either, even though they know of Ned's trip to Starfall, Ned apparently made some precautions on his way back not to be seen travelling with a newborn. A possible scenario is that he entrusted Jon to HR and sent him ahead, either right to Winterfell, or to pick him up somewhere along the way to the North. If they switched wetnurse(s) along the way, once HR returned to the Neck, Ned was the only person in the North who knew the secret.

I think the only connection ever made between Dorne and Jon is only and strictly linked with the possibility that he is Ashara's. And as far as I am aware there is zero mention of Ned bring him back from Dorne. In fact we no mention of Ned personally bringing any child to Winterfell nor is it confirmed that Ned was in residence when Cat found Jon and his wet nurse there.

I agree with you that Ned wouldn't have traveled with a child in anyone of the three scenarios:

1. Jon is Lyanna's -- How to keep it from anyone that he isn't Lyanna's if Ned returns with both his sister's remains and a new born in tow all the way from Dorne? He would have to lie about how Lyanna died and that the child is not hers and explain it all away as just a matter of circumstance. The only way to explain it would be to confirm Jon is Ashara's or Wylla's which he clearly never does so it doesn't work.

2. Jon is Ashara's -- Since he has gone to pains not to dishonour her and hide the fact, coming up from Starfall/Dorne with a bastard son would blow that illusion out of the water. Unless he claims Jon is Wylla's.

3. Jon is Wylla's -- Again he has hidden this fact from everyone so if you return from Starfall/Dorne where she is a long standing wet nurse how would word not get out? Especially since Wylla is not keeping it very secret if she told Edric. If she's not keeping quiet then the location of where Jon came from will have to be kept quiet or else everyone would know where to look for confirmation.

The question of the bodies left at ToJ has been brought up in the forums multiple times and, IMHO, it all boils down to the simple logistics of transporting the corpses in warm climate. We can see a similar dilemma in Barristan's PoV what to do with Quentyn's body: he never considers sending the body as such, only the bones (similarly, Ned brought back Lyanna's bones, not body). Due to the manner of Quentyn's death, he rejects cremation, there are no Silent Sisters available to deflesh the bones, so the remaining option is to let bugs clean the bones.

In Ned's case, he would probably face shortage of fuel, there would be no Silent Sisters around (and I don't see him attempting to deflesh the bones on his own), and bugs take time. Plus, while it is reasonable (to anyone but Lady Dustin) that his own sister gets special treatment, he has to honour all his fallen comrades as well as the KG - if he gave, say, Arthur Dayne special treatment, the Hightowers and Whents would take offence, and so would the Northerners. Best treat them all equally and give them a decent burial right there.

It is not stated whether he built the cairns just by himself (with HR and whoever else was present at ToJ) or whether he sent for his troops (IIRC, it is not stated whether he left his forces at Storms' End or somewhere closer to ToJ). Either way, in order to tear ToJ down, it would certainly help to put it to fire, and once the wooden supporting structure burnt, most of it would collapse on its own.

This is one of those things in which Martin better come up with a plausible explanation. The idea of Ned not being able to bring all of the Northerners bodies back and therefore choosing to bring none of them back makes sense. How could he honour only some and not all. It's also reasonable that the only reason he brought his Lya back was because as he told Robert that she made him promise. All good so far I think.

Now that he wants to honour the KGs by leaving them with their fallen foes and make it so that they are all equals in death is a bit more questionable. True there's no way to return Hightower since it's out of his way and to return Whent (which is on his way home) would be to dishonour his Northern lords by their exclusion, I can understand leaving those two. However he is going to Starfall and to say that he left Dayne there to lay with his brothers is not that reseaonable. Why? Because he either had to travel with Lyanna's rotting body to Starfall or he had to make arrangements for the Silent Sisters to do their thing. In the former case, what's another body? They had spare horses after all. It would be insulting that he arrived with one rotting body and not the other. In the latter, why only arrange for Lyanna when the SS could have done all 9 as easily? The all of them or none of them argument kind of breaks down either way you look at it. He had spare horses, not only the 5 he rode with that are now riderless but also those of the 3 KGs and Lyannas. Even if say Howland takes Jon and a wet nurse that still leaves at least 7 without riders. That would be enough to take 9 bodies to the nearest Sept.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

What I never got.. why Snow?

The bastard is from Dorne. made in Dorne and birthed in Dorne. Only because he is raised in the North doesn't make him a Snow.

And don't go with "Eddard=North=Snow" because then all of Bob's bastards have to be Storms.

Because no one knows where he was born.

If you remember Obara was born in Reach but she is Obara Sand not Flowers.