The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose V

[JNR]

The point being that if an object or part of a person is needed to anchor the glamour then there is an inherent part of these object/parts that retain some residue of the owner. That's why Mel says The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things.

I certainly agree with that. It's obvious given that the bones Mel is talking about in that passage weren't literally Rattleshirt's; he only wore them.

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me."

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

So, as you say, association with the owner is the point being made.

If the association is particularly close (literally part of the owner's body) that's all the better... and no doubt why Arya gets the memories she does. She is using the owner's actual face.

The significance of bones in particular doesn't strike me as overwhelmingly important. Notice there are no bones in these faces Arya is wearing, but she still gets the memories.

However, I doubt any of this will come into play re Jon discovering his parentage. Direct personal testimony is likely to be the key there.

Let's not forget we have no earthly idea where Lyanna was, or with whom she spent her time, or what she did, for the entire time she was gone... which was over a year. She could have interacted with five, ten, twenty, or more people in the month she became pregnant alone. We would have no way to know.

For GRRM to introduce one or more such people into the story would be a trivial matter, and contradict nothing from the timeline or any other information source we have today. (I have one particular candidate in mind to do exactly that, and it's not Howland Reed, either.)

And, of course, the above assumes Lyanna to be Jon's mother. If she wasn't, the field is even more wide open.

[Modesty Lannister]

Let's not forget we have no earthly idea where Lyanna was, or with whom she spent her time, or what she did, for the entire time she was gone... which was over a year. She could have interacted with five, ten, twenty, or more people in the month she became pregnant alone. We would have no way to know.

There is also another option - one that does not fit into L+R=J - and that is that Lyanna fled because she was pregnant.

[JNR]

There is also another option - one that does not fit into L+R=J - and that is that Lyanna fled because she was pregnant.

Well, this one is a bit tricky.

We know Jon was born around the time of the Sack; we also know the Sack happened after about a year of Robert's Rebellion.

So if Lyanna is Jon's mother, and she was pregnant the usual length of time, she became pregnant several months after the Rebellion started.

I suppose she might have been pregnant twice, though. (Not being female, I'm not really sure how long she would need after a failed pregnancy for a second one to be plausible.)

[Metopheles]

There is also another option - one that does not fit into L+R=J - and that is that Lyanna fled because she was pregnant.

Seems comfortable to say that, but there was no need. She was already betrothed and they would just have had her married earlier. If she didn't want the child, then she could have used moon tea.

I currently like to play with the idea of her running away from her marriage, maybe to the Wall, and finds the train of Rhaegar and vanishes in it. Or directly seeks protection from Rhaegar , he is the king's son after all. They then go for the capitol but Brandon already is there before them and the mess begins.

[Modesty Lannister]

Seems comfortable to say that, but there was no need. She was already betrothed and they would just have had her married earlier. If she didn't want the child, then she could have used moon tea.

I currently like to play with the idea of her running away from her marriage, maybe to the Wall, and finds the train of Rhaegar and vanishes in it. Or directly seeks protection from Rhaegar , he is the king's son after all. They then go for the capitol but Brandon already is there before them and the mess begins.

I think you are not far off. I don't think she was abducted. If she was running from someone, who were they? Her father, Robert, one of her brothers, someone else? Since everyone has been comparing Lyanna and Arya, I always try to imagine what would Arya be running from? Idea? Or, was she running after someone in order to execute revenge?

[Hrafntýr]

Well, this one is a bit tricky.

We know Jon was born around the time of the Sack; we also know the Sack happened after about a year of Robert's Rebellion.

So if Lyanna is Jon's mother, and she was pregnant the usual length of time, she became pregnant several months after the Rebellion started.

I suppose she might have been pregnant twice, though. (Not being female, I'm not really sure how long she would need after a failed pregnancy for a second one to be plausible.)

Interestingly, this is the same dilemma with which we're presented in the case of Ashara Dayne. Ser Barristan seems to have her "dishonored" at Harrenhal, but then committing suicide "shortly after" the stillbirth of her child. In this case, a nearly two year pregnancy.

Two pregnancies are certainly possible: I've known women who gave birth to children a year apart, and those are two full-term pregnancies. But what would a second pregnancy add to the question of Jon's legitimacy?

[wolfmaid7]

Interestingly, this is the same dilemma with which we're presented in the case of Ashara Dayne. Ser Barristan seems to have her "dishonored" at Harrenhal, but then committing suicide "shortly after" the stillbirth of her child. In this case, a nearly two year pregnancy.

Two pregnancies are certainly possible: I've known women who gave birth to children a year apart, and those are two full-term pregnancies. But what would a second pregnancy add to the question of Jon's legitimacy?

Now this is one of those things that always bothered me.

1.Was Ashara's Dayne's dishonor at the tourney well known

2. Why didn't she drink moon tea if she was dishonored?

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

OK Ladies and Gentlemen. First Post Ever! Let's Go:

Many topics have been touched upon on a thread regarding "Who are Jon Snow's parents?" I want to address a few before I get to that theme.

1. Bones might matter for memories, but they're not needed. I think everyone has forgotten that greenseers can see events that happened in the past, even ones in which the person had no connection to. Sorry I don't have the quotes at my finger tips, but it's in ASOS. And we know there are a few of them left.

2. Mance CANNOT be Rhaegar. I repeat, cannot be possible. When Mance is a POW for an extended period of time, does his hair color revert back to that white/blonde Targ look? Nope! Does Mance's physical description match RT? Not really.

Now the real fail with this theory: Aemon. Don't you think the two of them might have talked and bonded a bit if RT slunk away to hide at the wall? And on Aemon's death bed do you think he'd keep that to himself? And why not try to save Mance/RT when he becomes a POW? A quick word to Jon about his real father being right there would have been the buddy thing to do, don't ya think? Besides, this theory cheapens the entire arc of this story.

3.Who could really know the truth, and who could actually inform the audience? Speculation about Tryion solving it is cute, and may happen eventually, but he can never know for sure. Same with Aemon, Willa, and that crowd of characters. So who can know for a fact and inform us? As far as we know, four people can. HR is the most obvious candidate, and GRRM has said he will be in the sixth or seventh book. The other three are Bran, Jojen (kinda) and the last of the greenseers north of the wall (can't remember the name, damn it!) And I guess if Ned did tell anyone the truth, but I highly doubt that.

Now to why we are all here................................

Jon Snow IS Jon Targaryen! I think any doubt on this theory is mistaken. I could write a 20 page essay on why that is, but let me try to sum it all up as shortly as possible.

1. Start w/ the KG. Why are they at the ToJ? The KG are no jailers! They are protecting the heir to the throne. In Ned's dream of the ToJ, both Areys and RT are stated as dead. They even say "we swore a vow." What vow? Protect the king!

2. In the ToJ. What killed Lyanna? I think childbirth is the only possible conclusion. Otherwise someone assaulted and thus murdered her. And Ned likely would have told Bob, "Hey, Rhaegar and that other guy killed her." Idk, seems logical to me. So she died of childbirth. Promise me is obviously promise to protect Jon.

3. Not touched yet once in this thread is how the Reed's arrived in Winterfell. They speak of the Song of Ice and Fire. THEY KNOW. In some backhanded way they directly or indirectly know. Because HR knows. I think it's quite likely that RT told Lyanna about his "prophecy" and she might have told Ned and indirectly Howland. I know this one is a bit out there, but we don't know for sure how much Lyanna talked to Ned before her death.

4.Personality traits. Ned, in this series, is an analogy for what happens when you always, Always, ALWAYS do the right thing. Eddard Stark would not ever father a bastard. Lyanna was rash. Throwing aside an arranged marriage seems like something she would do. She also knew how to pick the better man.And then there's Rhaegar. We can only use speculation, but Ned seems to remember him as a good guy. In fact, everyone but Bob does. Not exactly rapist material.

5. The nail in the coffin: Foreshadowing. That might make some of you pause. I want you to read this and then mull it over awhile. GRRM, in all of his written work, spanning his entire career, loves foreshadowing. I want you to think about the Red Wedding for a bit. If you remember, there are hundreds of small clues tucked away across two books that let you know that Robb Stark is majorly F'd, and that it will be because of him breaking the marriage pact. Now think of the myriad times GRRM has used foreshadowing regarding Jon being a Targ or a king. It's literally everywhere. Right from the start with Jon acquiring Ghost (this sequence was GRRM's original inspiration to even write these books, remember) to the crow calling him king, to all allusions of his potential. It really does go on and on if you start to think about it. And to that point, GRRM doesn't include a lot of subtle background just to completely ignore that he wrote it. This guy isn't trying to trick anyone.There aren't a lot of red herrings so to speak (besides the misinformation minor characters often provide, but that's usually minor information too). Now what's far less clear is if Jon ever sees the throne. My guess is no. A Song of Ice and Fire will not have a happy ending that wraps everything up. As I stated earlier, that cheapens the story. But Jon Targaryen will likely be the prince that was promised and freaking died too soon.

[espresso]

I remember reading in one of these threads that Maester Aemon gave all that advice to Jon because he could recognize Jon to be Rhaegar's son. I don't know how Aemon could know that, but is it possible that despite having no Targ features, and having shown no interest in music or dragons, Jon might have had Rhaegar's voice? In that case, if Aemon had conversations with Rhaegar and then if Jon sounds the same, he might put things together and guess who Jon is. Aemon being blind will help him to see people beyond what they appear to be.

[JNR]

Jon Snow IS Jon Targaryen! I think any doubt on this theory is mistaken. I could write a 20 page essay on why that is, but let me try to sum it all up as shortly as possible.

1. Start w/ the KG. Why are they at the ToJ? The KG are no jailers! They are protecting the heir to the throne. In Ned's dream of the ToJ, both Areys and RT are stated as dead. They even say "we swore a vow." What vow? Protect the king!

2. In the ToJ. What killed Lyanna? I think childbirth is the only possible conclusion. Otherwise someone assaulted and thus murdered her. And Ned likely would have told Bob, "Hey, Rhaegar and that other guy killed her." Idk, seems logical to me. So she died of childbirth. Promise me is obviously promise to protect Jon.

3. Not touched yet once in this thread is how the Reed's arrived in Winterfell. They speak of the Song of Ice and Fire. THEY KNOW. In some backhanded way they directly or indirectly know. Because HR knows. I think it's quite likely that RT told Lyanna about his "prophecy" and she might have told Ned and indirectly Howland. I know this one is a bit out there, but we don't know for sure how much Lyanna talked to Ned before her death.

4.Personality traits. Ned, in this series, is an analogy for what happens when you always, Always, ALWAYS do the right thing. Eddard Stark would not ever father a bastard. Lyanna was rash. Throwing aside an arranged marriage seems like something she would do. She also knew how to pick the better man.And then there's Rhaegar. We can only use speculation, but Ned seems to remember him as a good guy. In fact, everyone but Bob does. Not exactly rapist material.

5. The nail in the coffin: Foreshadowing. That might make some of you pause. I want you to read this and then mull it over awhile. GRRM, in all of his written work, spanning his entire career, loves foreshadowing. I want you to think about the Red Wedding for a bit. If you remember, there are hundreds of small clues tucked away across two books that let you know that Robb Stark is majorly F'd, and that it will be because of him breaking the marriage pact. Now think of the myriad times GRRM has used foreshadowing regarding Jon being a Targ or a king. It's literally everywhere. Right from the start with Jon acquiring Ghost (this sequence was GRRM's original inspiration to even write these books, remember) to the crow calling him king, to all allusions of his potential. It really does go on and on if you start to think about it. And to that point, GRRM doesn't include a lot of subtle background just to completely ignore that he wrote it. This guy isn't trying to trick anyone.There aren't a lot of red herrings so to speak (besides the misinformation minor characters often provide, but that's usually minor information too). Now what's far less clear is if Jon ever sees the throne. My guess is no. A Song of Ice and Fire will not have a happy ending that wraps everything up. As I stated earlier, that cheapens the story. But Jon Targaryen will likely be the prince that was promised and freaking died too soon.

These points have all been considered in extreme detail for well over a decade and are all pretty easily disputed.

I'll just pick one for the hell of it.

4.Personality traits. Ned, in this series, is an analogy for what happens when you always, Always, ALWAYS do the right thing. Eddard Stark would not ever father a bastard. Lyanna was rash. Throwing aside an arranged marriage seems like something she would do. She also knew how to pick the better man.And then there's Rhaegar. We can only use speculation, but Ned seems to remember him as a good guy. In fact, everyone but Bob does. Not exactly rapist material.

First, I agree with you that Ned's honor was infinitely precious to him. The books say this over and over throughout the series. And like you, I doubt Ned would father a bastard.

That's why I find it even more difficult to believe he committed high treason for fourteen years, in secretly raising a Targaryen against the explicit wishes of his king and best friend (who considered all Targaryens enemies of the crown).

I've seen it argued elswhere that we know Ned committed treason to save his daughters in GoT... but that's bullshit, of course. What Ned did was pretend to be a traitor -- lie and claim he was a traitor, knowing for a fact that he wasn't.

Second, I doubt Lyanna Stark -- raised in the same household, by the same parents, as her honor-happy brother Ned -- would have run away with a man who was already married and the father to two children. It doesn't seem very... honorable. (The premise that Elia would have endorsed that idea just makes me chuckle.)

Third, Ned doesn't remember Rhaegar as a good guy. Ned only remembers Rhaegar as someone who probably wouldn't go to a brothel. And there are many possible explanations for that. (Example: perhaps Rhaegar was gay.)

Fourth, not "everyone but Robert" thinks highly of Rhaegar. Bran Stark explicitly calls Rhaegar a rapist. (You'll see it suggested elsewhere that Bran is merely parroting the Official Story, but it's never stated anywhere in the books that there is an Official Story).

Here's an interesting thing. As best I recall, in this series of thousands of pages, we have two characters who explicitly say Rhaegar was guilty of rape. And we have zero characters who explicitly deny Rhaegar was guilty of rape.

Personally, I doubt he raped anybody. But a reasonable case can certainly be made.

[J. Stargaryen]

Second, I doubt Lyanna Stark -- raised in the same household, by the same parents, as her honor-happy brother Ned -- would have run away with a man who was already married and the father to two children. It doesn't seem very... honorable. (The premise that Elia would have endorsed that idea just makes me chuckle.)

“I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie,” Ned said.

- AGoT, Catelyn II

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal.

- AGoT, Eddard XV

Are you sure Ned learned his honor from his parents? What are the words of House Arryn again?

Then there's this:

“It has a name, does it?” Her father sighed. “Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,’ my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave.”

- AGoT, Arya II

It's not really clear that Ned was the prototypical Stark, if there even is such a thing. So I think it makes for a poor argument to look for answers to Lyanna's actions by asking: What Would Ned Do?

[Aetta]

I remember reading in one of these threads that Maester Aemon gave all that advice to Jon because he could recognize Jon to be Rhaegar's son. I don't know how Aemon could know that, but is it possible that despite having no Targ features, and having shown no interest in music or dragons, Jon might have had Rhaegar's voice? In that case, if Aemon had conversations with Rhaegar and then if Jon sounds the same, he might put things together and guess who Jon is. Aemon being blind will help him to see people beyond what they appear to be.

Rhaegar and Aemon communicated regularly, we have no way of knowing that Rhaegar did not comunicate the impending birth of his (child) son to Aemon, or even the daliance with Lyanna. If so, Aemon could deduce who Jon is, by knowing he is the Stark bastard.

But then, I have always thought it odd that no one else in the 7 Kingdoms put 2 + 2 together about Ned's bastard anyway. So, Aemon could be as blind as everyone else. But I think that's how people could come to that conclusion, Aemon having direct contact with Rhaegar.

[Modesty Lannister]

Are you sure Ned learned his honor from his parents? What are the words of House Arryn again?

It's a key point. Brandon does not seem overly honourable leaving him noble mistress in order to marry Cat. Or fighting a small guy with almost no protection with full knight gear on.

[Modesty Lannister]

Rhaegar and Aemon communicated regularly, we have no way of knowing that Rhaegar did not comunicate the impending birth of his (child) son to Aemon, or even the daliance with Lyanna. If so, Aemon could deduce who Jon is, by knowing he is the Stark bastard.

But then, I have always thought it odd that no one else in the 7 Kingdoms put 2 + 2 together about Ned's bastard anyway. So, Aemon could be as blind as everyone else. But I think that's how people could come to that conclusion, Aemon having direct contact with Rhaegar.

Aemon does not go around explicitly saying to people "I am Aemon Targaryen. I refused the Iron Thrones." He did reveal himself when Jon tried to flee and join Robb. Later, when Jon was accused of desertion, Aemon defended him. He saw the one who put the idea of manipulating other brothers in order to elect Jon LC. Why? Why is Jon so special to Aemon if he does not know his ancestry?

[Metopheles]

I think you are not far off. I don't think she was abducted. If she was running from someone, who were they? Her father, Robert, one of her brothers, someone else? Since everyone has been comparing Lyanna and Arya, I always try to imagine what would Arya be running from? Idea? Or, was she running after someone in order to execute revenge?

I know I am onto something here... I just need to fit the last pieces of thread together...

I never understood this whole Lyanna affection thing..There is something wrong. If she is Arya in character, why does everybody talk about her like she is Sansa...

I think maybe the next big curious case thread could be made about the "Parallel Rebellion" of Jon Arryn and Rhaegar Targyaryen. I think if we dig into this we are five steps closer to unraveling the big secret.

[Metopheles]

I remember reading in one of these threads that Maester Aemon gave all that advice to Jon because he could recognize Jon to be Rhaegar's son. I don't know how Aemon could know that, but is it possible that despite having no Targ features, and having shown no interest in music or dragons, Jon might have had Rhaegar's voice? In that case, if Aemon had conversations with Rhaegar and then if Jon sounds the same, he might put things together and guess who Jon is. Aemon being blind will help him to see people beyond what they appear to be.

I said that multiple times. I just think Aemon recognised the moodiness, gloominess and attitude, voice, why not, he recognised something....familiar. I am 100% sure he knew. That is why he gives Jon always Targaryen specific advice or books or references.

[Metopheles]

Rhaegar and Aemon communicated regularly, we have no way of knowing that Rhaegar did not comunicate the impending birth of his (child) son to Aemon, or even the daliance with Lyanna. If so, Aemon could deduce who Jon is, by knowing he is the Stark bastard.

But then, I have always thought it odd that no one else in the 7 Kingdoms put 2 + 2 together about Ned's bastard anyway. So, Aemon could be as blind as everyone else. But I think that's how people could come to that conclusion, Aemon having direct contact with Rhaegar.

And Aemon wouldn't even have to tell where Rhaegar was during the "abduction" cause, you know..law ends at the Wall. All things forgotten.

Maybe the Wall is also the key to knowing that Rhaegar was at the tower. We brought up the idea that Mance was a person already at the Wall and Rhaegar took his identity (doubt it) maybe Mance found a letter detailing where Rhaegar is and ran to WF and told everything. The NW imprisoned Mance and when Rhaegar came to the Wall, Mance was killed for treason and Rhaegar took the appearance of Mance.

[Modesty Lannister]

I know I am onto something here... I just need to fit the last pieces of thread together...

I never understood this whole Lyanna affection thing..There is something wrong. If she is Arya in character, why does everybody talk about her like she is Sansa...

I think maybe the next big curious case thread could be made about the "Parallel Rebellion" of Jon Arryn and Rhaegar Targyaryen. I think if we dig into this we are five steps closer to unraveling the big secret.

I think that when it comes to Lyanna's flight and RR, "You know nothing, Jon Snow" applies to us as well.

[Metopheles]

I think that when it comes to Lyanna's flight and RR, "You know nothing, Jon Snow" applies to us as well.

Well, we know some things. We know we love the story. :'D

[Ygrain]

I never understood this whole Lyanna affection thing..There is something wrong. If she is Arya in character, why does everybody talk about her like she is Sansa...

Because she is not 100% Arya. Arya would never cry because of a song. Lyanna is a mix of Arya and Sansa, and older.