Septa Lemore identity (summary) and why it matters

[HexMachina]

Haha, like kaanchanoone, I'm also not convinced Lemore is Ashara, but I think it's a theory to be taken seriously, precisely because of Tyrion's descriptions. He makes very, very clear that she's NOT a conventional Septa. And not just because she's "handsome" enough to give him a boner. The fact that she is somehow "off" seems to be part of his process of realizing that Aegon is special. It's strange enough that some sellsword's son would be receiving the sort of education he is, but then the collection of individuals amassed around him is simply bizarre: a halfmaester, a soiled septa.

Put this in combination with all the dots that don't connect in Ashara Dayne's storyline (the 2 year pregnancy recounted by Ser Barristan, the "suicide" from which no body was ever recovered, GRRM's explicit statement that Ashara Dayne wasn't confined in Starfall in the year of the Rebellion, that "they have horses in Dorne, and ships") and there are solid grounds of speculation. Personally, I find it also plausible that Aegon is either Ashara's own child, or that her child of a rape committed by Aerys was the one switched for Elia's Aegon, though that is highly speculative, I know. I think it mostly because of Ser Barristan, who seems pretty sure that she was "dishonored" and was pregnant and gave birth. He's in some position to know, as he seems to have been one of the KG who was protecting the royal family during the period in question, i.e. Harrenhal and its aftermath.

Tyrion doesnt work out who Argon is himself, Haldon tells him

[kaanchanoone]

Tyrion doesnt work out who Argon is himself, Haldon tells him

I could be wrong but doesn't he think to himself that he already has an idea but just needs Haldon to confirm it?

I don't have the book open so I'm not very sure...

[Hippocras]

I could be wrong but doesn't he think to himself that he already has an idea but just needs Haldon to confirm it?

I don't have the book open so I'm not very sure...

Yes.

Tyrion figures it out himself, then gets confirmation.

[HexMachina]

Yes.

Tyrion figures it out himself, then gets confirmation.

At what point does Tyrion figure it out himself?

[Lady Woodland]

- The film Vertigo. External to the novels, but relevant nonetheless.

- The stretch marks from giving birth. This is not a guarantee. It is a clue however that Septa Lemore is more that she claims to be. Tyrion thought as much.

- The personality

- The author's description of behaviour

- The introduction of Lemore in the same book that GRRM has Selmy reminiscing about Ashara.

The answer that you seek is the completed puzzle. The pieces of the puzzle by themselves never look like the puzzle.

I love reading new theories, I like this one, but I think I'm fairly open minded. We know that GRRM has already indicated during a previous interview that he gave a nod to the 3 stooges in GoT, therefore if he has identified as being a Hitchcock fan there is a very good precedent to him using this Vertigo reference for one of his characters & a very clever play on words, after all, if it were really obvious it wouldn't be fun & we wouldn't even be here.

It also makes more sense in the context of the 7+ book plot that it more likely than not at this point that any new character IS actually someone he has already created & visually inserted into our consciousness while reading the previous 5 books than to invent another completely new character with NO backstory to suddenly emerge 5 books in?

My last point is that while GRRM wouldn't mind if some plot lines were figured out, I believe he would be filthy about some major theories being figured out. He is bound to have learned pretty quickly how quick most people are at pulling out his cryptic clues, therefore he's bound to alter his style a tiny bit so he doesn't disclose too much. - IE deliberately not include a specific detail such as eye colour which would be a dead give away. He's trying to stay a step ahead of the game, & that's actually pretty clever writing.

[Lady Woodland]

I would love to pay attention to a theory and when its about the Daynes I do, when I see a theory.

'snipped for space'

If you like the Dayne's backstories, - I read a great thread this morning on how Sir Arthur Dayne might not be dead either, don't have the link right now but it's several pages long so It will give you something else to contemplate. The members name is 'eggshelljoe' only 13 posts but really well thought out & well written even if you don't buy it.... don't be so negative & close minded, it's counterproductive to the whole purpose of the forums. :cool4:

[Hippocras]

If you like the Dayne's backstories, - I read a great thread this morning on how Sir Arthur Dayne might not be dead either, don't have the link right now but it's several pages long so It will give you something else to contemplate. The members name is 'eggshelljoe' only 13 posts but really well thought out & well written even if you don't buy it.... don't be so negative & close minded, it's counterproductive to the whole purpose of the forums.

I think Ned was pretty clear on the matter. He is dead.

[HexMachina]

I think Ned was pretty clear on the matter. He is dead.

Ned is also pretty clear that Ashara is dead

[Hippocras]

Ned is also pretty clear that Ashara is dead

That is a completely different issue (and actually no he never says anything about Ashara) because he was RIGHT THERE when Arthur died and seems to imply he killed him himself.

[Hrafntýr]

Varys's entire little production is a mummer's farce so it is really not that strange if every single person on that boat with fAegon is someone in hiding just as he is.

This is not a case of people thought dead who are unconnected randomly popping up all over the world. It is a case of a SINGLE plot that specifically used faked deaths to hide identities. So scoffing at the idea that Lemore and Haldon may both turn out to be people of actual significance is not random, or over-use of a plot device on GRRM's part, because they are all collaborators in a single mummer's farce.

Very well said! Tyrion is very clear on this point, that there is nothing coincidental about the assemblage of people around Aegon. In fact, he seems to be slightly mocking Aegon's simplistic "pisswater prince" story. He notes what a "pity" it was that JC just happened to be exiled before the sack of KL, so that he wasn't on hand to save Aegon from getting his brains dashed in, and then goes on in what I take to be a mocking tone to say, "And when the pisswater prince was safely dead, the eunuch smuggled you across the narrow sea to his fat friend the cheesemonger, who hid you on a poleboat and found an exile lord willing to call himself your father. It does make for a splendid story, and the singers will make much of your escape once you take the Iron Throne...." Here I think Tyrion is suggesting that Aegon might be a fool to believe the story he's been told. I believe he's also sussing out, and has confirmed, that Aegon knows nothing more than this sort of "fairy tale" version of his rescue.

[Lady Woodland]

That is a completely different issue (and actually no he never says anything about Ashara) because he was RIGHT THERE when Arthur died and seems to imply he killed him himself.

Key words, did you read Joe's post?

No you can't have, it's too long, it took me 2 hours to digest it.

You posted your answer immediately therefore you dismissed something you didn't want to hear, stating your opinions (which you are welcome to) before addressing something with an open mind is pretty arrogant.

All I'm saying is it's someone's theory, Crackpot or not other more enlightened folk might appreciate, nobody died & made you Lord of Canon. Don't be so dismissive, go ahead & read it then decide. Seriously you've made some really good points but you are too close minded. If you want others to take your thoughts & comments objectively you need to be a tad more conciliatory in your tone, seriously, you need to learn some patience & manners, DON'T SHOUT.

[HexMachina]

At what point does Tyrion figure it out himself?

Quoting because I dont seem to have been answered and I'm curious to know if I was wrong. I am in truth often mistaken with these things. (regarding Turion figuring out Aegon by himself)

[Hippocras]

Quoting because I dont seem to have been answered and I'm curious to know if I was wrong. I am in truth often mistaken with these things. (regarding Turion figuring out Aegon by himself)

I don't have the answer right now but i am working on an LF evidence review for several different threads so I have to reread several parts anyway. I will get back to you when I find it.

However it is not on topic anyway.

[Federico]

I want Septa Lemore to be Ashara Dayne. I empathize with Ned Stark, who might have blamed himself for the fate he believes found her. Also, I favor the beautiful despite my intellectual side (not so dominant of my actions and choices as I would want). I see her loss as a tragedy more so than that of some arbitrary ugly women. I dislike this about me, btw.

So on SL = AD, I lean on the skeptical side, very much so.

The age troubles me. Tyrion describes her as in her forties. However, a maiden from 20 years ago, would be 11-14. Her beauty and highborn birth suggest she'd marry young. Then again, Arianne of Martel is unwed, beautiful: how old us she?

Tyrion's observation of SL in her forties is a good but imprecise one. A casual look at Lindsey Logan today without makeup would illustrate that formerly attractive women can look well beyond their years. So, if AD was troubled, she might have lived off the poppy or something else to accelerate her apparent age.

The point about haunting eyes does not persuade me. It is a subjective, point of view description. I've been haunted by more than one pair of eyes because those beautiful girls/women stirred me up inside. Then again, one can be described as having haunting eyes for very different reasons too...very different. As one poster put it, a morose look with dark shading under eyes, if something like that.

Tyrion's failure to observe violet eyes, which are rare and have great implications in Tyrion's world, is a detractor but not definitive proof.

I have a new to me though just now... What of the verbal banter between Tyrion and SL? AD should have much knowledge of the Lannisters, Westerosi high borne, and the court of the Iron Throne. A very careful SL would not reveal possessing much of this info. But, mistakes from revealing too much when speaking with someone daily, and in a friendly manner, are easily made. So, did she reveal what might seem to be an over abundance of familiarity with these things when talking with Tyrion? I don't recall

Cheers

Fed

[Hippocras]

Arianne is 23 or 24.

You age range for maiden is stretching towards the young side IMO. It describes anyone who has "flowered" but not married (assumed to be a virgin).

So 12 to 20's

Also it was Barristan, born in 237 I think, who described her as a young maiden, and impressions of age are a relative thing.

[Starspear]

I want Septa Lemore to be Ashara Dayne. I empathize with Ned Stark, who might have blamed himself for the fate he believes found her. Also, I favor the beautiful despite my intellectual side (not so dominant of my actions and choices as I would want). I see her loss as a tragedy more so than that of some arbitrary ugly women. I dislike this about me, btw.

So on SL = AD, I lean on the skeptical side, very much so.

The age troubles me. Tyrion describes her as in her forties. However, a maiden from 20 years ago, would be 11-14. Her beauty and highborn birth suggest she'd marry young. Then again, Arianne of Martel is unwed, beautiful: how old us she?

Tyrion's observation of SL in her forties is a good but imprecise one. A casual look at Lindsey Logan today without makeup would illustrate that formerly attractive women can look well beyond their years. So, if AD was troubled, she might have lived off the poppy or something else to accelerate her apparent age.

The point about haunting eyes does not persuade me. It is a subjective, point of view description. I've been haunted by more than one pair of eyes because those beautiful girls/women stirred me up inside. Then again, one can be described as having haunting eyes for very different reasons too...very different. As one poster put it, a morose look with dark shading under eyes, if something like that.

Tyrion's failure to observe violet eyes, which are rare and have great implications in Tyrion's world, is a detractor but not definitive proof.

I have a new to me though just now... What of the verbal banter between Tyrion and SL? AD should have much knowledge of the Lannisters, Westerosi high borne, and the court of the Iron Throne. A very careful SL would not reveal possessing much of this info. But, mistakes from revealing too much when speaking with someone daily, and in a friendly manner, are easily made. So, did she reveal what might seem to be an over abundance of familiarity with these things when talking with Tyrion? I don't recall

Cheers

Fed

300 AL. If Ashara born 259AL-263AL, gives a 37-41 years of age.

But we don't have Arthur's birth year, and no Ashara birth year. It's all estimation and speculation (of her age) at this point.

[Starspear]

At what point does Tyrion figure it out himself?

P. 239-240 ADWD. "Who better to raise Rhaegar's son than Jon Connington" (paraphrasing)...

[Starspear]

300 AL. If Ashara born 259AL-263AL, gives a 37-41 years of age.

But we don't have Arthur's birth year, and no Ashara birth year. It's all estimation and speculation (of her age) at this point.

I want Septa Lemore to be Ashara Dayne. I empathize with Ned Stark, who might have blamed himself for the fate he believes found her. Also, I favor the beautiful despite my intellectual side (not so dominant of my actions and choices as I would want). I see her loss as a tragedy more so than that of some arbitrary ugly women. I dislike this about me, btw.

So on SL = AD, I lean on the skeptical side, very much so.

The age troubles me. Tyrion describes her as in her forties. However, a maiden from 20 years ago, would be 11-14. Her beauty and highborn birth suggest she'd marry young. Then again, Arianne of Martel is unwed, beautiful: how old us she?

Tyrion's observation of SL in her forties is a good but imprecise one. A casual look at Lindsey Logan today without makeup would illustrate that formerly attractive women can look well beyond their years. So, if AD was troubled, she might have lived off the poppy or something else to accelerate her apparent age.

The point about haunting eyes does not persuade me. It is a subjective, point of view description. I've been haunted by more than one pair of eyes because those beautiful girls/women stirred me up inside. Then again, one can be described as having haunting eyes for very different reasons too...very different. As one poster put it, a morose look with dark shading under eyes, if something like that.

Tyrion's failure to observe violet eyes, which are rare and have great implications in Tyrion's world, is a detractor but not definitive proof.

I have a new to me though just now... What of the verbal banter between Tyrion and SL? AD should have much knowledge of the Lannisters, Westerosi high borne, and the court of the Iron Throne. A very careful SL would not reveal possessing much of this info. But, mistakes from revealing too much when speaking with someone daily, and in a friendly manner, are easily made. So, did she reveal what might seem to be an over abundance of familiarity with these things when talking with Tyrion? I don't recall

Cheers

Fed

Regarding your last paragraph... yes, it's true. But Lemore's banter with Lannister is far from what would be expected if you recall. When I get the chance, I'll flipped through and see if anything of this nature.

[kaanchanoone]

P. 239-240 ADWD. "Who better to raise Rhaegar's son than Jon Connington" (paraphrasing)...

I think that is after the Haldon Tyrion cyvasse game though...

[HexMachina]

I think that is after the Haldon Tyrion cyvasse game though...

it is