Septa Lemore identity (summary) and why it matters

[Hrafntýr]

Well I think everyone on that boat is hiding something, and acting a part.

100% agreed. As for Haldon: when I try to play Barbrey Dustin's little maester name game, Haldon yields me....nothing. I can't place the name "Haldon" as being specific to any particular region/house. No obvious anagrams (though "Land Ho"! is kind of funny) or homonyms. Does "Haldon" spark any associations in anyone?

[Modesty Lannister]

100% agreed. As for Haldon: when I try to play Barbrey Dustin's little maester name game, Haldon yields me....nothing. I can't place the name "Haldon" as being specific to any particular region/house. No obvious anagrams (though "Land Ho"! is kind of funny) or homonyms. Does "Haldon" spark any associations in anyone?

There is a theory on this forum (nothing to do with it) that septa Lemore and Haldon are actually Leyton and Melora Hightower. There are other assumptions on this thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75640-who-is-septa-lemore/?hl=%20septa%20%20lemore%20%20malora%20%20hightower,%20%20haldon%20%20leyton%20%20hightower

Plus, there is this http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lemore/Theories.

May give you an idea. (Not saying that they will).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You have added nothing due to being as thick as a castle wall. Look up Virtigo and the book in which it drew inspiration Les Morts then comment on if you still believe Ashara is not the Septa.

sheesh. :dunce:

lol

Look up the book Iliad if you believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't caused the Rebellion.

Look up LotR if you believe that Jon will not become the King.

Also I have a serious question: Is insulting the only thing that you are capable of?

[Swordofthemornin]

I think it is highly probable that the Septa will turn out to be Ashara Dayne. The whole jumping from the tower mad with grief, body never found is just far too convenient to exit such an interesting character.

I find it a better and more substantial plot twist for Ashara to have in fact fled Westeros, I think that her brothers relationship with Rhaegar & her close proximity to Elia is no coincidence.

Ser Arthur was the most renowned true knight in the realm, he was also Rhaegars oldest and dearest friend, so whom else would you entrust but your oldest and dearest friend to take your newborn child as far away as possible from harm, to raise them in the event that you wouldn't return. Ashara may not have been best friends with Elia but her position so close to her & Rhaegars children is no coincidence, He obviously had great trust in the Daynes.

Which makes me think that they would have been briefed, that in the event should the war fail to either,

1. Rendezvous across the Narrow sea with the switched baby Aegon heir.

2. Escape with one of the litter produced by Lyanna. The One who unlike the others, had prominent/noticable Targaryen traits. Hair/eye colour.

All the time making it look like she had killed herself so as not to arouse suspicion of where she went.

I tend to believe 1. becuase he has been brought up to believe he is Aegon. This could however been done so as not to give away the identities of the other kids should 2. have been correct.

[Jojen]

She is Shae's mother.

[nedhed]

I'm starting to buy into this a little bit, and I think it could advance the narrative / tie up some threads in some interesting ways, though I haven't fully thought it through. First, it could add more meat to the "promise" Ned made to Lyanna- maybe she gave him instructions to bring to Ashara about how to carry out the plan to save remaining children with Targ blood, so maybe his trip to Starfall was about more than just returning Dawn. Two, it provides a way to bring the BWB and the Daynes into alignment with the (f?)aegon faction- presumably Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall and Ashara's nephew, could bring the faction of the BWB that does not follow Un-Cat into Ashara's fold, out of loyalty to his Aunt. Perhaps he also either becomes the sword of the morning and weilds Dawn, or anoints someone else- would be sick if it were Gendry.

One thing that rubs me about this theory, though, is that I would think that House Martell would know about the plot, as the Daynes and Ashara were loyal to them, although perhaps Ashara had reason to keep it hidden from Doran. Then again, maybe Doran just kept that card to himself when dealing with his daughter/son/the sandsnakes.

Anyway, sorry if that's confusing or just nonsensical, but thanks for the interesting topic.

ETA: it would also be an interesting twist if (f)aegon is actually R+L, and Jon is actually Brandon + Ashara. In this version, Lyanna's kid had the Targ features, and Ned took it to Ashara to spirit across the Narrow sea, and he took his Brother Brandon's bastard back to WInterfell, and Jon is actually a Stark/Dayne. But I'm too invested in R+L=J to buy into that.

[Starspear]

I'm starting to buy into this a little bit, and I think it could advance the narrative / tie up some threads in some interesting ways, though I haven't fully thought it through. First, it could add more meat to the "promise" Ned made to Lyanna- maybe she gave him instructions to bring to Ashara about how to carry out the plan to save remaining children with Targ blood, so maybe his trip to Starfall was about more than just returning Dawn. Two, it provides a way to bring the BWB and the Daynes into alignment with the (f?)aegon faction- presumably Edric Dayne, Lord of Starfall and Ashara's nephew, could bring the faction of the BWB that does not follow Un-Cat into Ashara's fold, out of loyalty to his Aunt. Perhaps he also either becomes the sword of the morning and weilds Dawn, or anoints someone else- would be sick if it were Gendry.

One thing that rubs me about this theory, though, is that I would think that House Martell would know about the plot, as the Daynes and Ashara were loyal to them, although perhaps Ashara had reason to keep it hidden from Doran. Then again, maybe Doran just kept that card to himself when dealing with his daughter/son/the sandsnakes.

Anyway, sorry if that's confusing or just nonsensical, but thanks for the interesting topic.

ETA: it would also be an interesting twist if (f)aegon is actually R+L, and Jon is actually Brandon + Ashara. In this version, Lyanna's kid had the Targ features, and Ned took it to Ashara to spirit across the Narrow sea, and he took his Brother Brandon's bastard back to WInterfell, and Jon is actually a Stark/Dayne. But I'm too invested in R+L=J to buy into that.

Good points. I think maybe you are correct that Ned had more on the agenda than the return of "Dawn" to Starfall.

And here's a thought...after the trauma of Lyanna dying... why would he then go and chillax by the beach and make love... he'd more likely be grieving... 'course who knows till GRRM expounds.

[CersiGoesCrazy]

Agree with theory that Aegon is Ahara's son by the Mad King. Barristan would know they had been together and the his choice of words "dishonored" would make sense from his pov. This would make Aegon a Targ but also a bastard. So the game is passing him off as the legitamate heir. Solves problem that Dany cannot have an heir.

[espresso]

Why couldn't Ashara take the moon tea? Why would she keep the child of a man she hated(Aerys)?

[Hippocras]

Agree with theory that Aegon is Ahara's son by the Mad King. Barristan would know they had been together and the his choice of words "dishonored" would make sense from his pov. This would make Aegon a Targ but also a bastard. So the game is passing him off as the legitamate heir. Solves problem that Dany cannot have an heir.

Yes I am starting to lean this way too. It is by far the most interesting possibility suggested so far. It would help explain the support of the Golden Company as well, since it is not at all plausible that the real Aegon would have their support.

However, the Blackfyre Rebellions have been mentioned so many times at this point that they must have some sort of relevance. I am wondering if a Blackfyre ever married into the Dayne family.

[Hippocras]

Why couldn't Ashara take the moon tea? Why would she keep the child of a man she hated(Aerys)?

Because she was also team Rhaegar along with her brother and the prophesies were clearly very important. She may have hated Aerys, but she did not hate Rhaegar and Rhaegar was also a spawn of Aerys. She would not have assumed the child would be worthy of hate. Having a King's bastard is also not the worst fate for her if Aerys had won the war. Rhaegar probably assured her the child would be safe from him.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Why couldn't Ashara take the moon tea? Why would she keep the child of a man she hated(Aerys)?

I don't know maybe because the child wasn't Aerys'? Maybe because there are some women who keep the child no matter who the father is?

[bent branch]

At first glance, I would not think he is other than Haldon... however, if we look at the crew:

Tyrion was hiding = Yollo

Young Griff = F/Aegon

Griff = Connington

Lemore = ambiguous past; potentially Ashara Dayne (as per this thread) or other.

Haldon may be Haldon, but never looked into if more. Open to hear ideas.

I think Haldon is the maester from the Dunfort during the Duskendale Defiance. The one characteristic that all the people around Aegon would have is being Targ loyalists. This is one point for Ashara that none of the other candidates put forth for Lemore have. I think Haldon was the "inside man" when Barristan rescued Aerys. When Duck explains how he came to be with the group, Haldon quickly tells Tyrion that he is Haldon Halfmaester to imply that he never finished his training. However, if Haldon betrayed the Darklyns to help rescue Aerys that would be an act worthy of losing his chain. So, rather than being someone who never finished getting his chain, Haldon's chain was taken from him.

As to the OP question about why Lemore would be Ashara, I think that Aegon was already with Ashara when Ned returned Dawn. I think Ashara and the three KG were just waiting for Lyanna to die before leaving with both of the boys. When Ashara got Dawn she knew they weren't coming and went into hiding with Aegon herself (helped by Varys). Many people ask why JonCon would believe Varys when he was presented with Aegon. I think it wasn't Varys that convinced JonCon that Aegon was Rhaegar's son, but Ashara herself.

[Hippocras]

I think Haldon is the maester from the Dunfort during the Duskendale Defiance. The one characteristic that all the people around Aegon would have is being Targ loyalists. This is one point for Ashara that none of the other candidates put forth for Lemore have. I think Haldon was the "inside man" when Barristan rescued Aerys. When Duck explains how he came to be with the group, Haldon quickly tells Tyrion that he is Haldon Halfmaester to imply that he never finished his training. However, if Haldon betrayed the Darklyns to help rescue Aerys that would be an act worthy of losing his chain. So, rather than being someone who never finished getting his chain, Haldon's chain was taken from him.

As to the OP question about why Lemore would be Ashara, I think that Aegon was already with Ashara when Ned returned Dawn. I think Ashara and the three KG were just waiting for Lyanna to die before leaving with both of the boys. When Ashara got Dawn she knew they weren't coming and went into hiding with Aegon herself (helped by Varys). Many people ask why JonCon would believe Varys when he was presented with Aegon. I think it wasn't Varys that convinced JonCon that Aegon was Rhaegar's son, but Ashara herself.

Something that is nagging me though is - if fAegon is Ashara's son, wouldn't he look a little bit like Ashara, to the point that when the two are seen together a resemblance might be noted?

So would it not be possible that the switching and moving around of babies included putting Ashara with someone else's son while her child was sent to someone else?

[nghisus]

I've seen a lot of eye color arguments and I'd like to bring something up. One of our first encounters with her is Tyrion leering while she bathes in the river. From then on it's not like Tyrion notices any other features except for the obvious womanly one's. Now I'm not ready to dub her Ashara just yet, the evidence is strong. A Lyanna twist would have people's heads exploding.

[Hippocras]

I've seen a lot of eye color arguments and I'd like to bring something up. One of our first encounters with her is Tyrion leering while she bathes in the river. From then on it's not like Tyrion notices any other features except for the obvious womanly one's. Now I'm not ready to dub her Ashara just yet, the evidence is strong. A Lyanna twist would have people's heads exploding.

Yeah, Lyanna being suddenly alive would be too much IMO.

[Modesty Lannister]

I think Haldon is the maester from the Dunfort during the Duskendale Defiance. The one characteristic that all the people around Aegon would have is being Targ loyalists. This is one point for Ashara that none of the other candidates put forth for Lemore have. I think Haldon was the "inside man" when Barristan rescued Aerys. When Duck explains how he came to be with the group, Haldon quickly tells Tyrion that he is Haldon Halfmaester to imply that he never finished his training. However, if Haldon betrayed the Darklyns to help rescue Aerys that would be an act worthy of losing his chain. So, rather than being someone who never finished getting his chain, Haldon's chain was taken from him.

As to the OP question about why Lemore would be Ashara, I think that Aegon was already with Ashara when Ned returned Dawn. I think Ashara and the three KG were just waiting for Lyanna to die before leaving with both of the boys. When Ashara got Dawn she knew they weren't coming and went into hiding with Aegon herself (helped by Varys). Many people ask why JonCon would believe Varys when he was presented with Aegon. I think it wasn't Varys that convinced JonCon that Aegon was Rhaegar's son, but Ashara herself.

Some excellent points there. You really got me thinking. And quotes that may support this Haldon theory?

[Hrafntýr]

I think Haldon is the maester from the Dunfort during the Duskendale Defiance. The one characteristic that all the people around Aegon would have is being Targ loyalists. This is one point for Ashara that none of the other candidates put forth for Lemore have. I think Haldon was the "inside man" when Barristan rescued Aerys. When Duck explains how he came to be with the group, Haldon quickly tells Tyrion that he is Haldon Halfmaester to imply that he never finished his training. However, if Haldon betrayed the Darklyns to help rescue Aerys that would be an act worthy of losing his chain. So, rather than being someone who never finished getting his chain, Haldon's chain was taken from him.

As to the OP question about why Lemore would be Ashara, I think that Aegon was already with Ashara when Ned returned Dawn. I think Ashara and the three KG were just waiting for Lyanna to die before leaving with both of the boys. When Ashara got Dawn she knew they weren't coming and went into hiding with Aegon herself (helped by Varys). Many people ask why JonCon would believe Varys when he was presented with Aegon. I think it wasn't Varys that convinced JonCon that Aegon was Rhaegar's son, but Ashara herself.

Something that is nagging me though is - if fAegon is Ashara's son, wouldn't he look a little bit like Ashara, to the point that when the two are seen together a resemblance might be noted?

So would it not be possible that the switching and moving around of babies included putting Ashara with someone else's son while her child was sent to someone else?

That's an interesting speculation about there having been an "inside man" at the Dun Fort, and it's true that a maester would be stripped of his chain for going against the lord of the castle to which he's assigned. One wishes, though, that we'd received some hint about there having been such a person.

As for Aegon having been with Ashara at Starfall by the time that Ned returned Dawn, that's just what I was trying to argue for above. And I also was creating scenarios by which Ashara had swapped out her baby (speculation: child of rape with Aerys) with Elia's back in KL, and had returned with Aegon to Starfall to keep safe the true heir. This works not just with bent branch's point about Dayne being loyalists, but also with the fact that they are sworn to House Martell. With such a scheme Ashara would be saving not just the heir to the throne but also her liege-lord's nephew.

[Hippocras]

In other words you think Aegon is really the original prince Aegon.

But if so, why would the Golden Company back him? And why is he "the mummer's dragon"?

And how could everyone have predicted that a switch would be needed?

[Starspear]

I think Haldon is the maester from the Dunfort during the Duskendale Defiance. The one characteristic that all the people around Aegon would have is being Targ loyalists. This is one point for Ashara that none of the other candidates put forth for Lemore have. I think Haldon was the "inside man" when Barristan rescued Aerys. When Duck explains how he came to be with the group, Haldon quickly tells Tyrion that he is Haldon Halfmaester to imply that he never finished his training. However, if Haldon betrayed the Darklyns to help rescue Aerys that would be an act worthy of losing his chain. So, rather than being someone who never finished getting his chain, Haldon's chain was taken from him.

As to the OP question about why Lemore would be Ashara, I think that Aegon was already with Ashara when Ned returned Dawn. I think Ashara and the three KG were just waiting for Lyanna to die before leaving with both of the boys. When Ashara got Dawn she knew they weren't coming and went into hiding with Aegon herself (helped by Varys). Many people ask why JonCon would believe Varys when he was presented with Aegon. I think it wasn't Varys that convinced JonCon that Aegon was Rhaegar's son, but Ashara herself.

Nice. Very nice. Not sure though about Haldon being maester of Duskendale, as can't find mention of a maester... but not impossible. And plausible if "inside man" proves true.