Septa Lemore identity (summary) and why it matters

[JonCon's Red Beard]

- The stretch marks from giving birth. This is not a guarantee. It is a clue however that Septa Lemore is more that she claims to be. Tyrion thought as much.

She is a Septa. She teaches Aegon about the faith, why would Varys, who wants Aegon to be properly taught, hire a woman who is simply a fake?

So, we assume she's actually a septa, how much it takes to become one? Because if Aegon has learnt about the Faith since he was old enough to understand, that means that Varys looked for a septa that was available when Aegon was about six or seven years old.

Also, why Varys would look for Ashara Dayne? How could he have known that she was alive and specifically, look for her?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Then leave. No one is asking you to stay. As you have "debated it way too many times", please move along. But here's advice how to debate:

Argument: Common description of Ashara's hair by both Tyrion and Selmy

Rebuttal: This is true, but can be coincidental. (you see, you show admittance for something that is said, and rebut with a valid counter-argument)

Argument: Vertigo wink-wink.

Rebuttal: Very uncanny. Another coincidence. Where is the proof that GRRM likes Hitchcock or has seen the film?

If you are exhausted and close-minded, sayonara amigo.

Funny that you haven't adressed any of my points. How very telling. But I will stick around since I have the right to.

I don't think age is out at all. Ashara and Elia are described together as companions. The logical assumption is that they are of a similar age, so there is no problem with Ashara being in her 40s. And again, if you look at the more specific quotes I provided about Ashara's and Lemore's hair, it's not just that it's "darkish" but also that it is "flowing" or "tumbling" "about her shoulders." Now of course lots of people have shoulder-length hair, and on many people it flows or tumbles, but the point isn't to pick people out of a lineup, but to consider the impressions, conscious or unconscious, upon the reader that such similar descriptions are supposed to provoke. So, too, with the similarity in personality of the two women: we actually haven't seen a lot of playful, laughing women, so it's striking when we get two.

afair Ashara was described as Elias lady in waiting, that doesn't mean that they were close at the age. Also we haven't seen Ashara as a playful woman that is how Barry has seen her, that is not sure that is correct. For example we have Marg as a playful darkhaired beauty, does this mean that she has any relation with Ash?

As for the question of motivation: was it something that she "learned" from Ned that provoked this act? Did Ned's arrival provide a useful pretext for this act? Personally, I see possible motivations being either to protect her own child (with the possibility that her "daughter" was not stillborn), or, alternatively, that her feigned suicide and subsequent disguise might enable her to raise a child that she otherwise would be unable to raise. Just a few general possibilities, without any evidence to support them. But I think that part of the reason that people are interested in pursuing the question is because there's something "off" in the provided motivations. Death of her "defiler"? Who would that be? Brandon? That took place well over a year previously, why the suicide only at the end of the war? Aerys? Here things get trickier, delving into the very difficult territory of the different responses that victims of rape have about a child of said rape. Ned? Most people think Ned and Ashara didn't make a baby.

Why she should protect a fake baby? Because your previous assumptions are that Ash and Elia was close, wouldn't she know how the real baby would look like?

She is a Septa. She teaches Aegon about the faith, why would Varys, who wants Aegon to be properly taught, hire a woman who is simply a fake?

So, we assume she's actually a septa, how much it takes to become one? Because if Aegon has learnt about the Faith since he was old enough to understand, that means that Varys looked for a septa that was available when Aegon was about six or seven years old.

Also, why Varys would look for Ashara Dayne? How could he have known that she was alive and specifically, look for her?

Very good points. Take my admiration now!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Another thing. We know GRRM is kinda repetitive about people returning from their (fake) deaths but, IICR, Jon Con and Ashara Dayne knew each other and they both are thought dead, isn't much of a coincidence that they both met like this?

"omg, weren't you dead?"

"I could say the same!"

"so, we're alive?"

"yes!"

<high five>

[Hippocras]

Another thing. We know GRRM is kinda repetitive about people returning from their (fake) deaths but, IICR, Jon Con and Ashara Dayne knew each other and they both are thought dead, isn't much of a coincidence that they both met like this?

"omg, weren't you dead?"

"I could say the same!"

"so, we're alive?"

"yes!"

<high five>

Not really. Ashara also danced with JonCon at Harrenhal. This plot Varys is spinning - started long before they each supposedly died.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Another thing. We know GRRM is kinda repetitive about people returning from their (fake) deaths but, IICR, Jon Con and Ashara Dayne knew each other and they both are thought dead, isn't much of a coincidence that they both met like this?

"omg, weren't you dead?"

"I could say the same!"

"so, we're alive?"

"yes!"

<high five>

Also in this company Ashara, JonCon and Aegon are alive what a hat-trick(!) or the company of the living dead.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Not really. Ashara also danced with JonCon at Harrenhal. This plot Varys is spinning - started long before they each supposedly died.

So, Varys suggested them to dance together?

[protar]

Then answer this: why are Lemore's eyes not described at all. Even if they were brown, by your arguments, GRRM is now a bad storyteller because he did not describe Lemore's eyes. An author describes precisely what he wants to describe and not describe.

Furthermore, by your definition, good writing = explicit writing. Which in reality, we get exact opposite: bad writing. Sub-text and nuance make good writing - as well as clarity - but don't confuse clarity with expliciteness.

Maybe they're not described because they're not important? We know most of the main cast's eye colours because the different Houses have blanket eye colours, but most of the characters don't have their eye colours described. We don't know Rolly Duckfield's eye colour either. Maybe he's a secret Targaryen Warg? It's bad writing to omit information that by all rights the audience should be privy to. It's why in almost every instance of such omitted information (and every instance where it is omitted for more than a couple of paragraphs) the POV finds out the information off-screen. But Tyrion meets Lemore onscreen and violet eyes would be immediately noticeable.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Also in this company Ashara, JonCon and Aegon are alive what a hat-trick(!) or the company of the living dead.

I can see Varys' reasoning here... "mmm... who can I find to take care of a child who is presumably dead? I know! Two people who are also presumable dead! yay me!"

[Jon's Queen Consort]

So, Varys suggested them to dance together?

On the next episode of "Dancing with the Westerosi." the dancing instructor Varys explains to the contestants Jon and Ashara how to dance Danse Macabre à deux.

I can see Varys' reasoning here... "mmm... who can I find to take care of a child who is presumably dead? I know! Two people who are also presumable dead! yay me!"

Bringing dead back since 289. Damn I am good!

[Hippocras]

So, Varys suggested them to dance together?

Don't be ridiculous. No.

The tournament at Harrenhal was set up so that Rhaegar could discuss some sort of "changes" with a number of people. There were some plans in the works that were important to him, whatever they were. Aerys showed up and messed up the tournament (because of Varys) but the plans, whatever they were, were still being discussed. Possibly on that dance floor.

Rhaegar's best friend was Ashara's brother. We know that HE at least was in on whatever Rhaegar was up to, and was dedicated until the end when he died at the ToJ to protect Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. Ashara's supposed death occurred after Ned visited her and brought her news, as well as a baby and a wetnurse.

[HexMachina]

Not read the whole thread, because it seemed to degenerate rather quickly. Personally do not buy the theory, because of the following reasons:

- Ashara's violet/purple eyes. I know someone (Hippocras maybe?) pointed out that Tyrion not mentioning them doesn't mean he didn't notice, but when other characters have purple eyes (for example, Lysono Maar, the Golden Company spymaster) it is specifically mentioned. Now you can say "GRRM isn't ready to reveal this yet" but then it seems strange that he should have Tyrion, one of the more observant POVs, interact with Ashara and mention nothing, not even an implication that he knows/suspects who she is.

- Varys and Illyrio want Aegon mentored in the Faith of the Seven, so that he is well educated on the customs of the country they hope he will one day rule.It makes no sense for them to recruit Ashara Dayne, rather than a real Septa or Septon. If (hypothetically) Ashara was involved in the Aegon the Maybe plot, then there is no reason for her to masquerade as a Septa; she could literally pose as anyone (e.g. "Griff's" sister, "Aegon's" mother).

- Septa Lemore is described as fairly jovial and carefree. By contrast, Ashara Dayne is said to have haunting eyes, which implies a rather morose look to me. Furthermore, after losing her brother, abandoning her family and their castle, losing whichever Stark she fell for, and (at least potentially) having a stillborn child, there would at the very least be moments where Lemore appeared melancholy.

- Ashara had a reputation for great beauty, yet Tyrion describes her as "more handsome than pretty" which doesn't seem a very flattering description for someone known for great beauty.

- What role could Ashara Dayne possibly play in seating Aegon on the throne. Although an old House, the Daynes are hardly the most powerful of the Dornish houses, and as a woman she would have even less influence over events (within the restraints of the novel). I fail to see what purpose it serves if Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne. Also, I would be interested to know at what point the OP thinks she would have been recruited to help Illyrio and Varys. Because Ned does not dispute the fact that she committed suicide.

WRT the age, mentioned earlier in the thread, Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting, a position that iirc is usually held by young women; note that Joanna Lannister and The Princess of Dorne were ladies in waiting to Rhaella Targaryen, and both would have been younger than her. As Ashara was either raped or had consensual sex at the Tourney of Harrenhal, I will assume she was at least 14 at this tourney, and therefore her absolute minimum age at this time would be early thirties.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is too many things that Varys can't foreseen and if we're learning something along five books is that he improvises on the way.

Do we know how he met Jon Con? I don't remember, really but it's too improvable that he planned him do anything he did. Jon Con resents the way he had to leave the GC, because he raised high among the ranks, and could have been the next commander. It was luck that he found Rhaegar's friend to support Aegon's claim and identity.

So, are we meant to believe Varys was lucky enough to find Ashara, Elia's friend, after she faked her death? I can understand that Varys could have told her to fake her death, but then, how she did it? She hired a woman who looked like her to jump instead? really? Does AShara look like someone who allow that? Because if Barristan has heard how she died, that means that people knew and there were probably witnesses. There is no way she would survive THAT kind of death.

And what purpose would it serve to have Ashara? He already has Jon Connington. Because Jon Connington's story makes sense: "no, I wasn't dead, I was exiled and there were rumours about my death. But I wasn't dead". He could even say he escaped with Aegon. But what is "Ashara" going to say? "Yes, I fake my death too".

[Greymoon]

The credit doesn't go to me, but I remember thinking hey that's pretty smart, unless I'm mixing it up, Fireeater posted sometime ago that Lemore = Wenda the White Fawn, from the Kingswood Brotherhood. She was "young and fair" if we take fair = pretty, we don't actually have any indication of her hair color...anyway, the brotherhood brewed trouble during the reign of Aerys, most are believed to be dead (safe Ulmer who took the black) and their leader was Simon Toyne – House Toyne has a history with the Targaryens (beginning with Ser Terrence Toyne and Aegon the Unworthy) and Myles Toyne was a general of the Golden Company and a friend of Jon Connington: that seems rather an important point, if Myles was in any way or matter involved in the fAegon plot, and this friendship/respect meant that JonCon trusted him blindly. The point is moot if Aegon is real (IMO he isn't, but anyway :) )

If Aegon is fake and a Blackfyre pretender Lemore = Wenda makes some sense, and while there's little to go on with, the link exists and there is no obvious flaw in it like there is with the other theories of Lemore = Mellario of Norvos or Lemore = Ashara.

[Starspear]

Not read the whole thread, because it seemed to degenerate rather quickly. Personally do not buy the theory, because of the following reasons:

- Ashara's violet/purple eyes. I know someone (Hippocras maybe?) pointed out that Tyrion not mentioning them doesn't mean he didn't notice, but when other characters have purple eyes (for example, Lysono Maar, the Golden Company spymaster) it is specifically mentioned. Now you can say "GRRM isn't ready to reveal this yet" but then it seems strange that he should have Tyrion, one of the more observant POVs, interact with Ashara and mention nothing, not even an implication that he knows/suspects who she is.

- Varys and Illyrio want Aegon mentored in the Faith of the Seven, so that he is well educated on the customs of the country they hope he will one day rule.It makes no sense for them to recruit Ashara Dayne, rather than a real Septa or Septon. If (hypothetically) Ashara was involved in the Aegon the Maybe plot, then there is no reason for her to masquerade as a Septa; she could literally pose as anyone (e.g. "Griff's" sister, "Aegon's" mother).

- Septa Lemore is described as fairly jovial and carefree. By contrast, Ashara Dayne is said to have haunting eyes, which implies a rather morose look to me. Furthermore, after losing her brother, abandoning her family and their castle, losing whichever Stark she fell for, and (at least potentially) having a stillborn child, there would at the very least be moments where Lemore appeared melancholy.

- Ashara had a reputation for great beauty, yet Tyrion describes her as "more handsome than pretty" which doesn't seem a very flattering description for someone known for great beauty.

- What role could Ashara Dayne possibly play in seating Aegon on the throne. Although an old House, the Daynes are hardly the most powerful of the Dornish houses, and as a woman she would have even less influence over events (within the restraints of the novel). I fail to see what purpose it serves if Septa Lemore is Ashara Dayne. Also, I would be interested to know at what point the OP thinks she would have been recruited to help Illyrio and Varys. Because Ned does not dispute the fact that she committed suicide.

WRT the age, mentioned earlier in the thread, Ashara was Elia's lady-in-waiting, a position that iirc is usually held by young women; note that Joanna Lannister and The Princess of Dorne were ladies in waiting to Rhaella Targaryen, and both would have been younger than her. As Ashara was either raped or had consensual sex at the Tourney of Harrenhal, I will assume she was at least 14 at this tourney, and therefore her absolute minimum age at this time would be early thirties.

Yes, sadly, I'm at a loss at how to keep the vultures away.

I do suggest seeing the parallels between Vertigo (film) and Ashara/Lemore. This is very telling. Also, the descriptive language that GRRM uses is also very telling. As per my original posting, knowing Illyrio's purpose in recruiting Lemore is still a mystery, regardless of whether she turns out to be Ashara (and even more so, if she is confirmed to be Ashara).

Let me sit on for a second, and I'll get right back to you!

[Starspear]

Cat describes Ashara's eyes as haunting, and she never even met Ashara. So if her eyes are so well known to people who haven't seen her, then Tyriom would've noticed them.

And the A+H=M&J theory also has the parallel of Vertigo.

What's the parallel with Vertigo in A+H = M&J? There's none. "Lemore" the name is what glues the Vertigo theory of Ashara = Lemore.

[Starspear]

Yes, sadly, I'm at a loss at how to keep the vultures away.

I do suggest seeing the parallels between Vertigo (film) and Ashara/Lemore. This is very telling. Also, the descriptive language that GRRM uses is also very telling. As per my original posting, knowing Illyrio's purpose in recruiting Lemore is still a mystery, regardless of whether she turns out to be Ashara (and even more so, if she is confirmed to be Ashara).

Let me sit on for a second, and I'll get right back to you!

Tyrion, one of the more observant POVs, interacts with Ashara and mentions nothing, not even an implication that he knows/suspects who she is:

Yes, you're right; it would come off a bit deceptive or contrived, but not impossible and easily forgivable. To be fair to GRRM, he does have Tyrion highly suspicious and curious to know more about this Septa. That in itself is a clue. This was book 5... we’re late in the series, so new characters and new mysteries will become more rare.

Fake Septa/no sense:

I agree with you that she is there with a purpose to teach the faiths ergo a fake Septa is counter-productive. Good point, but there's plenty of room for GRRM to work a story to explain why: for example, maybe Ashara did actually become a Septa. As an aside, Septas are suppose to be celibate. This one was not (maybe before vows). Is she the right type of Septa a future king should be mentored by? Open to many conclusions.

Ashara/melancholy; Lemore/happy

As pointed out by Hrafntyr, Ashara’s general lightheartedness and laughter seem similar to Lemore’s frequent laughter and general playfulness. Haunting eyes don’t describe personality; in fact, can very well be a red herring.

Ashara great beauty

Sadly, with all things, time takes its course. Great beauty is the gift of younger women. Handsome women are nonetheless alluring. Ashara was a great beauty (then). Who knows what she would look like in the present. Handsome?

What purpose does she serves with F/Aegon?

No clue. Who was/is her kid? That’s what I want to know. Aegon’s reveal was so anti-climatic, that it’s hard to take seriously. Is F/Aegon, Lemore’s kid? That would justify her presence, but has its own issues.

It's sad that some members posting have not understood the parallel with Vertigo. I may have to post in detail why (one more time)... but then again, might be pointless. Those who got it, got it.

[kaanchanoone]

Then answer this: why are Lemore's eyes not described at all. Even if they were brown, by your arguments, GRRM is now a bad storyteller because he did not describe Lemore's eyes. An author describes precisely what he wants to describe and not describe.

Furthermore, by your definition, good writing = explicit writing. Which in reality, we get exact opposite: bad writing. Sub-text and nuance make good writing - as well as clarity - but don't confuse clarity with expliciteness.

Yes. Also (this has been mentioned before I think) we don't learn about Aegon/JonCon as Tyrion is figuring it out...we only learn about that later after Tyrion has figured out exactly who they are.

Sure we get hints about JonCon being a lord with red eyebrows etc. But we're not privy to the moment when everything falls in place and Tyrion is all "Aha!" Esp. about Aegon.

Personally, when he said "gods and wonders always appear to attend the birth of kings." I didn't know what he was talking about...

So I guess its not a stretch to think that he notices Lemore's eyes but we as readers just haven't been let in on it.

I should mention though that I'm not an overly astute reader...[emoji15]

I should also mention that I'm not convinced Lemore is Ashara either...

[Hrafntýr]

Haha, like kaanchanoone, I'm also not convinced Lemore is Ashara, but I think it's a theory to be taken seriously, precisely because of Tyrion's descriptions. He makes very, very clear that she's NOT a conventional Septa. And not just because she's "handsome" enough to give him a boner. The fact that she is somehow "off" seems to be part of his process of realizing that Aegon is special. It's strange enough that some sellsword's son would be receiving the sort of education he is, but then the collection of individuals amassed around him is simply bizarre: a halfmaester, a soiled septa.

Put this in combination with all the dots that don't connect in Ashara Dayne's storyline (the 2 year pregnancy recounted by Ser Barristan, the "suicide" from which no body was ever recovered, GRRM's explicit statement that Ashara Dayne wasn't confined in Starfall in the year of the Rebellion, that "they have horses in Dorne, and ships") and there are solid grounds of speculation. Personally, I find it also plausible that Aegon is either Ashara's own child, or that her child of a rape committed by Aerys was the one switched for Elia's Aegon, though that is highly speculative, I know. I think it mostly because of Ser Barristan, who seems pretty sure that she was "dishonored" and was pregnant and gave birth. He's in some position to know, as he seems to have been one of the KG who was protecting the royal family during the period in question, i.e. Harrenhal and its aftermath.

[King of Winters]

What's the parallel with Vertigo in A+H = M&J? There's none. "Lemore" the name is what glues the Vertigo theory of Ashara = Lemore.

Ashara fakes her death, the story is she jumped from the towers of Starfall so she's dead to the people of Westeros, but she's living in the Neck with Howland and her name to outsiders is Jyana to keep her identity safe.

[Hippocras]

Varys's entire little production is a mummer's farce so it is really not that strange if every single person on that boat with fAegon is someone in hiding just as he is.

This is not a case of people thought dead who are unconnected randomly popping up all over the world. It is a case of a SINGLE plot that specifically used faked deaths to hide identities. So scoffing at the idea that Lemore and Haldon may both turn out to be people of actual significance is not random, or over-use of a plot device on GRRM's part, because they are all collaborators in a single mummer's farce.