How well will the Unsullied do in Westeros?

[Blackthorne45]

The Logistics alone for Dany's landing and for organizing her troops would be her downfall. Do they even have enough ships to take 8,000 unsullied? Also if we are including the Mercs and the Dothraki(if she can even convince them to travel over the sea) where will they get the ships. Also the Ironborn are a naval army, not one for marching against a westerosi Calvary charge.

Speaking of the Ironborn, their ships would be pretty much full of them, and all their provisions, not to mention how many ships they might lose on the way over. Vic didnt know on the onset of his journey that Dany had this medium size army to bring with her.

Also, what are the sizes of the Second Sons and the other mercs?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Logistics alone for Dany's landing and for organizing her troops would be her downfall. Do they even have enough ships to take 8,000 unsullied? Also if we are including the Mercs and the Dothraki(if she can even convince them to travel over the sea) where will they get the ships. Also the Ironborn are a naval army, not one for marching against a westerosi Calvary charge.

Speaking of the Ironborn, their ships would be pretty much full of them, and all their provisions, not to mention how many ships they might lose on the way over. Vic didnt know on the onset of his journey that Dany had this medium size army to bring with her.

Also, what are the sizes of the Second Sons and the other mercs?

Of course they don't.

The Second Sons have about 600 men, most other companies are similarly sized. Cavalry, which means transporting horses.

[khalhotpie]

The Logistics alone for Dany's landing and for organizing her troops would be her downfall. Do they even have enough ships to take 8,000 unsullied? Also if we are including the Mercs and the Dothraki(if she can even convince them to travel over the sea) where will they get the ships. Also the Ironborn are a naval army, not one for marching against a westerosi Calvary charge.

Speaking of the Ironborn, their ships would be pretty much full of them, and all their provisions, not to mention how many ships they might lose on the way over. Vic didnt know on the onset of his journey that Dany had this medium size army to bring with her.

Also, what are the sizes of the Second Sons and the other mercs?

If this hypothetical conflict was to take place we must assume dany has humbled the slavers and left a solid lasting regeime behind and now has their naval resorces at her command otherwise shes not going to westeros and we dont get to see unsullied in action there.

[Wmarshal]

If this hypothetical conflict was to take place we must assume dany has humbled the slavers and left a solid lasting regeime behind and now has their naval resorces at her command otherwise shes not going to westeros and we dont get to see unsullied in action there.

Haha, HAHA, HAHA. Yeah no. THe slavers would likely destroy what she lives behind, as to the sea, the Yunkai'i nobles would probably flee to New Ghis for awhile with all their stuff while Dany is still doing whatever in Dothraki Sea and the battle, which seems to be quickie, ends.

[Tijgy]

A lot depends on how you uses your troops and on which terrain the battle is fought.

Pikemen are also the most efficient branch of an army against cavalry

For example: The battle of the Golden Spurs which was won by Flemish pikemen against French knights, crossbowmen and infantry. The reason why they won, was they had dug up ditches, ... so it became a sort of a slump and very difficult to charge for those French cavalry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Golden_Spurs

Other examples showing using tactics, terrain and your armies strong points to your benefit are the battle of Agincourt and Crecy

(Archers against French knights)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt#Terrain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cr%C3%A9cy

[Sir Lee knot]

Can you site something from history of from the text to back that 90% figure you pulled out of your ass?

It's not a historical thing, it's a common sense thing.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it.

When on one side, you have guys who train almost all day every day from the age of 6. Guys who train so hard that only 1 in 3 survive (Unsullied). And on the other side you have guys who train a few times a week or a few hours every day at most and even when they do, aren't going through anything as rigorous as the Unsullied are (your average Westerosi men at arms). Then in terms of skill with their weapons, endurance and ability in battle they are going to be far better then a Westerosi foot soldier. Hence the 90% figure which is really just a rough estimate. The only people who are going to be more skilled then the Unsullied are the guys who are just born better like Gregor, Jaime, Brianne etc...

The Red Viper has no similarity to the typical member of the Unsullied outside of their use of spears.

Oberyn is a grown man. He has gone through puberty. He can build muscle mass. He has trained for combat as an individual. He fights as an individual. He knew how the Mountain fought. No doubt he had oft thought about how to kill such a man as the Mountain.

The Unsullied are eunuchs. Specifically they are eunuchs made so far before puberty. The Unsullied should logically have virtually no muscle mass. They are not individual fighters. They fight in "lockstep" formations(i.e. legions or phalanxes). They are trained to fight as a unit.

For example of real life Unsullied type eunuchs look dogs, cats, horses, etc... While it's true they aren't as strong as their intact counterparts it's not like they lose all strength and become sacks of skin and bones. Many neutered animals are still perfectly fine in sports and other activities that require athletics. You are greatly overestimating the effects of being neutered have on the Unsullied.

Also, just because Unsullied are trained to fight in a phalanx formation doesn't mean they are incompetent in single combat. They are well known for being house hold guards after all.

[khalhotpie]

Haha, HAHA, HAHA. Yeah no. THe slavers would likely destroy what she lives behind, as to the sea, the Yunkai'i nobles would probably flee to New Ghis for awhile with all their stuff while Dany is still doing whatever in Dothraki Sea and the battle, which seems to be quickie, ends.

I dont think the version of dany thats comming out of the wilderness is gonna leave the slavers in any fit state to do that ..the floppy ears are gone its fire and blood time.

[Wmarshal]

I dont think the version of dany thats comming out of the wilderness is gonna leave the slavers in any fit state to do that ..the floppy ears are gone its fire and blood time.

How is she going to stp them? Kill every free man in Essos?

[Fat Trell]

For example of real life Unsullied type eunuchs look dogs, cats, horses, etc... While it's true they aren't as strong as their intact counterparts it's not like they lose all strength and become sacks of skin and bones. Many neutered animals are still perfectly fine in sports and other activities that require athletics. You are greatly overestimating the effects of being neutered have on the Unsullied.

Also, just because Unsullied are trained to fight in a phalanx formation doesn't mean they are incompetent in single combat. They are well known for being house hold guards after all.

We don't need to look at animals. We have many, many examples of human eunuchs in our history.

Eunuchs who are mutilated after puberty are still almost identical to regular men. Many of them served as guards to harems and noble wives and children. These are who you are thinking of when drawing a comparison to oxen and geldings, whom are also castrated after puberty to allow them to maintain strength. Steer are more comparable to Unsullied.

Eunuchs who are mutilated well before puberty, like the Unsullied, never go through conventional puberty. They won't be able to put on muscle well. They will maintain their high voices(castrati) and other childlike traits throughout their lives.

This is a fantasy series, but logically the Unsullied should be weak compared to the average man(though they should have excellent endurance) and very weak when compared to a competant man-at-arms/knight.

[khalhotpie]

How is she going to stp them? Kill every free man in Essos?

after the siege is broken they will need what little military strength they have left to stop their own slaves joining the movement in their own backyards

and of course all this presumes they live through the siege

or dany doesnt make an example on her way back to ensure they submit ....quarth is on the way thatd do nicely

[Wmarshal]

after the siege is broken they will need what little military strength they have left to stop their own slaves joining the movement in their own backyards

and of course all this presumes they live through the siege

or dany doesnt make an example on her way back to ensure they submit ....quarth is on the way thatd do nicely

Not all the slaver are at the battle, some are in New Ghis or Yunkai or other parts of Essos. With who? The battle is already waging and Dany is off somewhere, where you ask, I don't know.

[Sir Lee knot]

We don't need to look at animals. We have many, many examples of human eunuchs in our history.

Eunuchs who are mutilated after puberty are still almost identical to regular men. Many of them served as guards to harems and noble wives and children. These are who you are thinking of when drawing a comparison to oxen and geldings, whom are also castrated after puberty to allow them to maintain strength. Steer are more comparable to Unsullied.

Eunuchs who are mutilated well before puberty, like the Unsullied, never go through conventional puberty. They won't be able to put on muscle well. They will maintain their high voices(castrati) and other childlike traits throughout their lives.

This is a fantasy series, but logically the Unsullied should be weak compared to the average man(though they should have excellent endurance) and very weak when compared to a competant man-at-arms/knight.

You are only correct in that it would be harder to put on muscle mass but it doesn't mean they can't. Especially with their training they would probably be far more physically strong then a man at arms.

In regards to animals. Many, many vets neuter early and it hardly makes a difference in the animals physical strength. There really is no reason to believe that an Unsullied trained like they are would be weaker then a regular soldier.

[khalhotpie]

Not all the slaver are at the battle, some are in New Ghis or Yunkai or other parts of Essos. With who? The battle is already waging and Dany is off somewhere, where you ask, I don't know.

true but after the ones at mereen are crushed slaves everywhere wll be restless (we know many already are due to so many following the red priests and their feeling dany is their messiah ) plus the freedmen at mereen will have time to be forged into a decent fighting force......and the harpies will no doubt be routed out.

with who? drogon and the khalasar shel gain after she makes him eat her old buddy jhaqo

All in all the slavers must be crushed for any scenario where she returns to westeros with the unsullied for us to see how they do

[E-Ro]

It's not a historical thing, it's a common sense thing.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat it.

When on one side, you have guys who train almost all day every day from the age of 6. Guys who train so hard that only 1 in 3 survive (Unsullied). And on the other side you have guys who train a few times a week or a few hours every day at most and even when they do, aren't going through anything as rigorous as the Unsullied are (your average Westerosi men at arms). Then in terms of skill with their weapons, endurance and ability in battle they are going to be far better then a Westerosi foot soldier. Hence the 90% figure which is really just a rough estimate. The only people who are going to be more skilled then the Unsullied are the guys who are just born better like Gregor, Jaime, Brianne etc...

this is nonsense unsupported by logic or science. Training that results in only 1 of 3 men surviving it does not produce excellent warriors, it produces gibbering wrecks afflicted with severe ptsd. furthermore the fact that they are castrated BEFORE puberty means that no matter how hard they train they wont ever be nearly as strong as an intact man. Pre pubescent castration has numerous affects on the body, their joints will be extremely weak, they will have great singing voices, and their skulls will be thicker in the front causing medical issues. The lack of muscle mass means their thrusts will be utterly ineffectual against anyone wearing even the most basic of armor. spending so much time training will give them skill with their weapons sure, but they are crippled by the lack of balls, and lack of armor. Their ability in battle is severely limited, they are spearmen but without armor, they are designed to follow orders like robots so have no ability to think for themselves and will require constant babysitting by a competent nco if they are going to accomplish anything.

As an example, do you know any 5 year olds that could kick your ass? The unsullied will be pretty much like a bunch of tall well disciplined kids. Put them up against an equal number of men at arms and they will die in spades. I keep repeating myself but weight is important when infantry engage each other in hand to hand.

You are only correct in that it would be harder to put on muscle mass but it doesn't mean they can't. Especially with their training they would probably be far more physically strong then a man at arms.

In regards to animals. Many, many vets neuter early and it hardly makes a difference in the animals physical strength. There really is no reason to believe that an Unsullied trained like they are would be weaker then a regular soldier.

:bs: It isn't harder to put on muscle mass, its next to impossible. They dont go through puberty.

[Wmarshal]

true but after the ones at mereen are crushed slaves everywhere wll be restless (we know many already are due to so many following the red priests and their feeling dany is their messiah ) plus the freedmen at mereen will have time to be forged into a decent fighting force......and the harpies will no doubt be routed out.

with who? drogon and the khalasar shel gain after she makes him eat her old buddy jhaqo

And those slaves would be put down by their masters while Dany heads West. Those freedmen still has nothing to go against the legions of Essos. Seeing as Dany was never close to finding who the Harpy was I extremely doubt.

No where near Meereen and the battle, also, why would the dothraki bow to her? They hate magic

[Ramsay Gimp]

By the way, no real big knight needed, average or bad would suffice as well.

Oberyn put the lie to how invincible Knights in armor supposedly are. If the Unsullied were simply told "aim for the joints", they'd probably hold their own against average knights (assuming they outnumbered the knights, which is a reasonable assumption)

[Ramsay Gimp]

This is a fantasy series, but logically the Unsullied should be weak compared to the average man(though they should have excellent endurance) and very weak when compared to a competant man-at-arms/knight.

Except logic has to take a back seat to the rules established by GRRM. So far, the Unsullied have only been said to have less physical capacity, but given their constant training I'm not sure you could call them weak.

Also, strength means little compared to skill

[E-Ro]

Oberyn put the lie to how invincible Knights in armor supposedly are. If the Unsullied were simply told "aim for the joints", they'd probably hold their own against average knights (assuming they outnumbered the knights, which is a reasonable assumption)

I always get a chuckle out of the oberyn fight. Aiming at armors joints with a spear? LOL. fighting one on one with a spear? LOFUCKINGL. A spear is a poor weapon to use against someone in plate. and anyways, when fighting in formation you aren't aiming at your enemies joints, its not feasible. And any knights that charge unsullied while mounted head on deserve to die. dismounting and then attacking them would be a far better bet. thats a ton of dead unsullied.

Except logic has to take a back seat to the rules established by GRRM. So far, the Unsullied have only been said to have less physical capacity, but given their constant training I'm not sure you could call them weak.

Also, strength means little compared to skill

A fair argument about grrm. But we havent seen the unsullied operate yet. Im not going to debate based on some abstract fantasy laws and rules. I m going to debate using what I know from real life. Until we see the unsullied in combat with an equal foe this is fair game.

Also, strength is pretty important. In fact, when fighting in formation skill really isnt a large factor. It doesnt take skill to thrust a spear. A heavier unit will invariably have a rather large advantage in this sort of combat. Two blocks of infantry push up against each other, and the side that starts giving ground first is going to lose tons of men.

[khalhotpie]

And those slaves would be put down by their masters while Dany heads West. Those freedmen still has nothing to go against the legions of Essos. Seeing as Dany was never close to finding who the Harpy was I extremely doubt.

No where near Meereen and the battle, also, why would the dothraki bow to her? They hate magic

They are outnumbered and wil have just lost the bulk of their military might in the futile siege id doubt they could put down much esp the religiously fanatical ones.

she will have figured it out on her return or tyrion will for her............either way for us to have this hypothetical matchup of unsullied vs weserosi forces shel have had to secure her base.

this assumes she arrives after obviously she not a time lord

We know they fear blood magic not beasts......danys dothraki responded favourably to her dragons plus they saw her ride it there

we also know they bow to strength ...have him cook jhaqo and that should do just nicely

and khal drogo dreamed of sacking the great cities like quarth ...hints its been a longtime dream of the dothraki to take such a big prize

[Ramsay Gimp]

I always get a chuckle out of the oberyn fight. Aiming at armors joints with a spear? LOL. fighting one on one with a spear? LOFUCKINGL. A spear is a poor weapon to use against someone in plate. and anyways, when fighting in formation you aren't aiming at your enemies joints, its not feasible. And any knights that charge unsullied while mounted head on deserve to die. dismounting and then attacking them would be a far better bet. thats a ton of dead unsullied.

But it happened. This is GRRM's world, not ours. History is only so useful here