How well will the Unsullied do in Westeros?

[Sir Lee knot]

What was that comment about making ridiculous claims when ''losing'' the argument again?

I never said they're all like that. I'm saying we never hear about them being anything but that. Thus, those characteristics are common enough that we can't call them steeotypes, and if the author had wanted us to have another idea of the Dothraki than the one that is commonly held both in and out of universe, he would have done it. He didn't. The Dothraki, as described in the text, are a one-dimensional stereotype. That's fact whenever you like it or not.

But keep getting angry and yelling insults if you prefer. I've made my point several times over and I'm now off to greener pastures.

So you are admitting that a Dothraki could come up with actual strategies. If that is the case then we shouldn't assume every Dothraki is a blazing idiot.

I don't know about you but I like arguing. It's fun to see the excuses people come up with when they lose.

[Lord Reaver]

meant helms in the traditional sense of the word as in great helm

the unsullied have spiked helmets/caps yes but give me a great helm over that anyday

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_helm

Eh, take it from me, wearing one of those things makes you virtually incapable of seeing or hearing much of anything. It was a helmet used only by "knights" when mounted. In such a situation, you don't really need to hear much anyway (hard as heck when you're riding full speed), or see much other than what's right in front of you. Also, you're a perfect target for any archers, which means you want your head as protected from projectiles as possible.

But even knights changed to something a-la the "chapel de fer", whenever they were dismounted. There's a reason why this was by far the most popular style of helmet from the middle ages all the way up to WWII. It works, mate, pretty much the ultimate tradeoff between vision/hearing and protection.

TL;Dr: A spiked cap (well, the spike is just silly, really, but there you go, it's fantasy) is actually (arguably) a better choice for head-protection for footsoldiers than Great Helms.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Never was a fan of great helms. I thought most Westerosi Knights wear bascinets and sallets.

[Sir Lee knot]

Never was a fan of great helms. I thought most Westerosi Knights wear bascinets and sallets.

Yeah, personally I prefer flip flops,

[khalhotpie]

Dany has been with Dothraki ever since the beginning of her story, for five book's time. She's also been with people who've interacted with Dothraki more than her. If George had wanted to give us a different image of the Horselords, he had more than enough space to do it. That fact that he didn't is telling. If some piece of text disproves our so-called ''stereotypes'' later on, I'll happily eat my heart out. Until then, it's all the info we have about them, and I'm taking them as they are in the text.

to be fair though we see khal drago is slowly assembling all the dothraki under him, talks of talking a major city (dreams of taking quarth) and also wants dany as his bride.....we can assume this isnt just some sudden desire for hot pale white booty but a sign hes maybe taking them in a different direction.

maybe hes the dothrakis genghis if he wasnt brought down by an old crone to drive danys story forward

[Talleyrand]

But even knights changed to something a-la the "chapel de fer", whenever they were dismounted. There's a reason why this was by far the most popular style of helmet from the middle ages all the way up to WWII. It works, mate, pretty much the ultimate tradeoff between vision/hearing and protection.

And you can eat your porridge out of it - its like a medieval bat belt

[Talleyrand]

- We argued about the strength of eunuchs for several pages. Despite having loads of real world evidence and book evidence for a eunuch's ability to train himself to be just as strong as a normal fit man, many people still do not accept it.

The guy who's bloody selling them even admits they won't be as strong as Westerosi knights

[khalhotpie]

Eh, take it from me, wearing one of those things makes you virtually incapable of seeing or hearing much of anything. It was a helmet used only by "knights" when mounted. In such a situation, you don't really need to hear much anyway (hard as heck when you're riding full speed), or see much other than what's right in front of you. Also, you're a perfect target for any archers, which means you want your head as protected from projectiles as possible.

But even knights changed to something a-la the "chapel de fer", whenever they were dismounted. There's a reason why this was by far the most popular style of helmet from the middle ages all the way up to WWII. It works, mate, pretty much the ultimate tradeoff between vision/hearing and protection.

TL;Dr: A spiked cap (well, the spike is just silly, really, but there you go, it's fantasy) is actually (arguably) a better choice for head-protection for footsoldiers than Great Helms.

If im packed so tightly i can barely move then il pick the helm but each to his own

yeah the only way i can see the unsullied working well is given mail and long spears .... ..given ser barristan and lord freindzone seem ok with taking them right away to westeros im assuming thats not hard to come by in grmms world.

[Sir Lee knot]

The guy who's bloody selling them even admits they won't be as strong as Westerosi knights

Yes, but does it blend? That is the question...

to be fair though we see khal drago is slowly assembling all the dothraki under him, talks of talking a major city (dreams of taking quarth) and also wants dany as his bride.....we can assume this isnt just some sudden desire for hot pale white booty but a sign hes maybe taking them in a different direction.

maybe hes the dothrakis genghis if he wasnt brought down by an old crone to drive danys story forward

That is basically what I think. I don't think the guy who united the biggest Khalasar in living memory was simply a "stupid barbarian". He seemed a little smarter then that. Unfortunately we never really got to see him fight any armies.

[Lord Reaver]

And you can eat your porridge out of it - its like a medieval bat belt

Haha, too true! Though I've only ever had stew out of mine. Not a big one for porridge, really.

[jarl the climber]

Can we all just agree at this point that if the Unsullied do well in westeros its because its required for the story/fantasy and not actually grounded in the reality of how ball-less spearmen without armor would actually perform in combat? against men at arms?

I agree but I haqve enjoyed the informative discussion about armors and weaponry that this thread has spawned.

[Fat Trell]

22 pages later and how far have we gotten? Well let's see.

- We argued about the strength of eunuchs for several pages. Despite having loads of real world evidence and book evidence for a eunuch's ability to train himself to be just as strong as a normal fit man, many people still do not accept it.

- We do agree that Westerosi have better equipment but some claim that Unsullied's equipment is so inferior that it's a instant loss just based on that. Even though we know exactly how much armor Unsullied use which is actually not that bad but the opposition still claims otherwise.

- It's been established that having a high resistance to pain is only a slight advantage but doesn't actually help much in the big picture.

- While some argue that the Unsullied's ability to not route is a huge advantage since the leading cause of victory in ancient battles was from routing. The opposition claim that it doesn't matter because the Unsullied are "easy to kill" anyways.

- The Unsullied's superior training has been brought up several times but has been down played for reasons regarding a eunuchs strength and equipment.

- It's been argued that the phalanx is really old therefore could not hold up to the European knight fighting formations. The counter point to this is that it depends on how the phalanx is used and what the Unsullied are supported by.

And after all this, the only arguments that has really been excepted is that having a high tolerance to pain isn't necessarily a benefit or that it is a very minimal one.

• You have argued against the fact that you cannot become as strong a regular man if you lack testes from an early age.. Everyone else seems to understand basic anatomy/chemistry. Provide me with one real life example of a eunuch who was mutilated before puberty who grew to become as strong as a man.

The Unsullied wear very little clothing/armor. Against armored foes in Winter, this is fatal one way or another.

Pain is a good thing. We feel it for a reason.

Not routing is good. It is being underrated by some in this thread. Many battles have been won through refusal to route.

The Unsullied train more, they don't have superior training. They train to use tactics and formations that are millennia out of date. They also train to fight as a unit. They don't have the individual training knights do.

The Phalanx was basically useless by the birth of Christ. The short-spear based phalanx even earlier. You can use them however you want, they're still less far inferior to pikeman..

The only argument that has been accepted by you. Important distinction there.

[Sir Lee knot]

• You have argued against the fact that you cannot become as strong a regular man if you lack testes from an early age.. Everyone else seems to understand basic anatomy/chemistry. Provide me with one real life example of a eunuch who was mutilated before puberty who grew to become as strong as a man.

The Unsullied wear very little clothing/armor. Against armored foes in Winter, this is fatal one way or another.

Pain is a good thing. We feel it for a reason.

Not routing is good. It is being underrated by some in this thread. Many battles have been won through refusal to route.

The Unsullied train more, they don't have superior training. They train to use tactics and formations that are millennia out of date. They also train to fight as a unit. They don't have the individual training knights do.

The Phalanx was basically useless by the birth of Christ. The short-spear based phalanx even earlier. You can use them however you want, they're still less far inferior to pikeman..

The only argument that has been accepted by you. Important distinction there.

1. Every single neutered animal that had the surgery when it was young. Sure, if you never give it any exercise then it won't be as strong as one with testes but if you give it good exercise it can be equal. This has been shown hundreds and hundreds of times. Mammals are completely comparable to humans. We even test medicine on them first to see how it effects them because we know that it's going to be a similar result for humans. Also because of evolution which if you don't believe then it's your own problem. Strong Belwas is also an example straight from the books. It is a myth that you need testosterone to get muscle. It just helps with getting it but isn't absolutely needed.

2. Unsullied wear helmets and big round shields that cover most of their body. They also use the phalanx that is a very good defensive position. So saying that they wear very little armor is a bit of an exaggeration.

3. Vikings and other warrior cultures took drugs to not feel pain and it helped them quite a bit. It's an advantage because getting a minor wound won't make you lose your shit and you'll stay calm and keep fighting. Or if you get a deadly wound that won't kill you immediately but in a few hours then it's good that you can just ignore it.

4. I'm glad you agree.

5. Training more is better as long as you don't damage your body in the process and it's pretty clear that the Astapori didn't tolerate any damaged Unsullied. Unsullied also serve as personal guards not just brick formation troops. Also, it would be pretty stupid if the Astapori only ever trained them to fight in perfect formation and never taught them anything about single combat. That is pretty much what the sword is for. The Unsullied may not be better then a Knight but certainly a man at arms.

6. The phalanx didn't become useless because time passed. Culture changed, weapons changed and nations rose and fell. Against charging men at arms and Knights is should fine. The short spear remained a dominant weapon on the battle field pretty much up to the invention of gun powder. It's only real disadvantage is that it's slow moving and doesn't handle flanks well. The flank problem can be amended by using a triangle formation. The movement problem is fixed by having them unlock their shields, take out their swords and charge.

7. Yeah at least I've shown that I can change my mind. Some people around here just make excuse after excuse for their incorrect arguments.

[Starspear]

7. Yeah at least I've shown that I can change my mind. Some people around here just make excuse after excuse for their incorrect arguments.

...

[Lord Reaver]

2. Unsullied wear helmets and big round shields that cover most of their body. They also use the phalanx that is a very good defensive position. So saying that they wear very little armor is a bit of an exaggeration.

3. Vikings and other warrior cultures took drugs to not feel pain and it helped them quite a bit. It's an advantage because getting a minor wound won't make you lose your shit and you'll stay calm and keep fighting. Or if you get a deadly wound that won't kill you immediately but in a few hours then it's good that you can just ignore it.

2. Just a helmet and nothing else or a padded armor IS "little", when compared to Westeros where pretty much everyone we see has at least mail.

3. No. This is a myth. First of all, we have no idea what the berserkrgang was or if it's even something real, rather than just something the saga authors just made up. Heck, if you're going to believe every word they said, then you'll have to believe the Sami were making magic armour. Furthermore, taking poison mushroom (which is the most often claimed substance) just gives you serious stomach troubles, it won't make you impervious to pain.

[Starspear]

3. No. This is a myth. First of all, we have no idea what the berserkrgang was or if it's even something real, rather than just something the saga authors just made up. Heck, if you're going to believe every word they said, then you'll have to believe the Sami were making magic armour. Furthermore, taking poison mushroom (which is the most often claimed substance) just gives you serious stomach troubles, it won't make you impervious to pain.

Taliban take hashish and opium. Become so drugged up that they can take several bullets.

Ancient Aryans used soma for rituals, but also before going to war.

Various rituals and trances have been documented that allow shamans (i.e. Tibetan, Mongolian) and warriors to ignore pain.

The Varangian Guard is documented by Byzantines to go into berserking rages - Enoksen, Lars Magnar. (1998). Runor : historia, tydning, tolkning. Historiska Media, Falun. ISBN 91-88930-32-7 p. 135

[Sir Lee knot]

2. Just a helmet and nothing else or a padded armor IS "little", when compared to Westeros where pretty much everyone we see has at least mail.

3. No. This is a myth. First of all, we have no idea what the berserkrgang was or if it's even something real, rather than just something the saga authors just made up. Heck, if you're going to believe every word they said, then you'll have to believe the Sami were making magic armour. Furthermore, taking poison mushroom (which is the most often claimed substance) just gives you serious stomach troubles, it won't make you impervious to pain.

Helmet and the shield that covers most of their body. It's like you missed half the sentence. I admit it's not super well armored but it's not like they are naked Dothraki.

No it's not a myth. Many warrior cultures have been known to do it throughout history, it's very well documented and starspear gave a few examples.

[GallowsKnight]

Helmet and the shield that covers most of their body. It's like you missed half the sentence. I admit it's not super well armored but it's not like they are naked Dothraki.

Which is great you know until their formation gets disrupted and men at arms carve them like turduckens one on one.

[Sir Lee knot]

Which is great you know until their formation gets disrupted and men at arms carve them like turduckens one on one.

/if/

[Sir Lee knot]

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