What do you think of this argument that I found for why Dany isn't a good ruler?

[butterbumps!]

Ok, then. So, then you are of the view that anybody with a big enough army has a claim. Euron's claim is just as legitimate as anybody else's because he might have the army to enforce his claim. The poor small folk of Westeros.

When, I say "respect", I mean something in law or tradition that establishes a person's claim to the throne, other than just plain old "might makes right".

Maybe if I tell you my personal preference it would help clarify my argument, because I get the sense you might be being a little suspicious of my points in terms of a pro-Dany argument.

The only king I really respect in terms of how he became one is Mance. His combination of ability and responsibility to his people (with a bit of the ass-kicking side) that brought him consensus is what I'm personally in favor of. For more perspective, I'm actually kind of in the King Jon Snow (i.e. non-Targ claim) camp. At the very least, I'm not really a big fan of having any of these current claimants sitting the throne at the end (by which I mean Stannis, Tommen, Aegon, Dany, Euron).

That said, I'm really not sure if I'd respect the tradition of bloodline claims over force. It depends on what the force is being applied to (for example, Stannis wants to fight in the LN to win people to his cause). There's also other options that might make people want to invest authority in a certain claimant despite improper blood or tradition. Things like feeding and protecting smallfolk. Actually fulfilling what most of us post-Enlightenment readers would consider responsibilities to their subjects. It's not really an either/ or between blood and force.

[Drake Heath]

I'm a post-Enlightenment reader and I think the only requirement for who is king should be how metal their rule would be.

It just so happens that only Victarion and Stannis qualify as the rest are barely even copper.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Stannis rule wouldn't even qualify as moss

Maybe it would get porridge status

[OldGimletEye]

Maybe if I tell you my personal preference it would help clarify my argument, because I get the sense you might be being a little suspicious of my points in terms of a pro-Dany argument.

The only king I really respect in terms of how he became one is Mance. His combination of ability and responsibility to his people (with a bit of the ass-kicking side) that brought him consensus is what I'm personally in favor of. For more perspective, I'm actually kind of in the King Jon Snow (i.e. non-Targ claim) camp. At the very least, I'm not really a big fan of having any of these current claimants sitting the throne at the end (by which I mean Stannis, Tommen, Aegon, Dany, Euron).

That said, I'm really not sure if I'd respect the tradition of bloodline claims over force. It depends on what the force is being applied to (for example, Stannis wants to fight in the LN to win people to his cause). There's also other options that might make people want to invest authority in a certain claimant despite improper blood or tradition. Things like feeding and protecting smallfolk. Actually fulfilling what most of us post-Enlightenment readers would consider responsibilities to their subjects. It's not really an either/ or between blood and force.

Fair enough. Now let you tell me where I am coming from. First, I am not making my arguments because I am some huge Stannis fan. I am not. I like John as a person, much better.

But, generally, I think peaceful succession is desirable. Now, the ideal would be peaceful succession according to Democratic and Republican principles. But, since that is a long way off in Westeros, we must look for the next best thing, Unfortunately, that next best thing are the rules of dynastic succession. If the rule is simply that the one with biggest army gets to be king, then I think that is an invitation to wars of succession.

And to make clear. I am not saying there is never any reason to replace a king or an heir. There are cases where its probably justified. But, it has to be more than "I got the biggest army, and I want to be king." Also, if somebody like Mance wants to replace the current system, with something arguably better, then I wouldn't find it objectionable. But, I would find it objectionable if Mance wanted to merely be King because he has the army to make it happen and intends to keep the same old system in place.

[Drake Heath]

Oh, he's plenty moss, he's beyond moss, he's iron.

He's a eleven on the Mohs hardness scale.

Victarion's an twelve though, because he's Ironborn.

Yes, Iron is harder than diamonds.

And yeah, I don't care if I'm using it wrong, I paid the Iron Price for it, I can do what I want.

[Ziggy Targdust]

They are all tree sap and corny

Danys all platinum and horny

[Drake Heath]

They are all tree sap and corny

Danys all platinum and horny

Platinum is the least metal metal ever.

[Stormland's Fury]

Stannis rule wouldn't even qualify as moss

Maybe it would get porridge status

Iron porridge can't be too good for your digestion to be honest.

Wouldn't recommend it.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Platinum is the least metal metal ever.

Just because it's noob doesn't make it unmetal

[Drake Heath]

Just because it's noob doesn't make it unmetal

That makes it plenty unmetal.

When was platinum ever used to cave peoples' skulls in?

[starki]

This. It's like Varys said on the show power is essentially in the eye of the beholder, or really those who are ruled. Kind of ironic. Or isn't. I dunno. Nobody knows what that word means anymore. But yeah until the various lords/vassals/peeps of Westeros recognize the claimant as the monarch their claim is pretty much worthless.

You mean all the Houses agreeing on one ruler ? Robert came close, and he had to take Theon hostage.and marry Cersei to maintain peace. Aegon came very close, and he had three dragons to defeat his enemies. And both of them took the Throne by force in the first place.

Since then ... what are the odds ?

Current "king" Tommen doesn't have any more of a claim than Joffrey.

Not all the lords supported Robert's heir Stannis before...will the lords ever agree on one single person to be King ?

Daenerys has yet to cross the sea, and it remains to be seen what reception she gets. Or "Aegon", if he's real.

Other claims...like who ? Euron going on about dragons and having a horn isn't a claim. It's just shouting,

The only rightful ruler is the person who can take and hold the throne.

Exactly.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Commoners are dazzled with flashy platinum, they dont want no rusty old iron giving everybody lockjaw

[Roddy the Ruin]

I would love it if Jon, Dany, and fAegon were called together and have their blood mean nothing, and have a council decide who rules.

[Drake Heath]

Who decides on the council?

What's the guarantee they'd make a good decision?

What if they put the worst possible person on the throne?

How could that possibly be considered metal?

[E-Ro]

I would love it if Jon, Dany, and fAegon were called together and have their blood mean nothing, and have a council decide who rules.

nooooope. anyone who has at least one targ parent should be banned from ruling anything ever. Anyone with TWO targ parents should just go away.

ETA:Oh, and fuck mance.

[Stormland's Fury]

A council of two foreigners and one bastard?

Yeah that dynasty is going to be great.

The metal aspect is lost on me as well.

[butterbumps!]

Fair enough. Now let you tell me where I am coming from. First, I am not making my arguments because I am some huge Stannis fan. I am not. I like John as a person, much better.

But, generally, I think peaceful succession is desirable. Now, the ideal would be peaceful succession according to Democratic and Republican principles. But, since that is a long way off in Westeros, we must look for the next best thing, Unfortunately, that next best thing are the rules of dynastic succession. If the rule is simply that the one with biggest army gets to be king, then I think that is an invitation to wars of succession.

And to make clear. I am not saying there is never any reason to replace a king or an heir. There are cases where its probably justified. But, it has to be more than "I got the biggest army, and I want to be king." Also, if somebody like Mance wants to replace the current system, with something arguably better, then I wouldn't find it objectionable. But, I would find it objectionable if Mance wanted to merely be King because he has the army to make it happen and intends to keep the same old system in place.

I agree that on a personal level, I don't like the principle that anyone who has enough force can make himself king for jollies. But I do think that a person in said position could end up the king-- I mean, if they were to win the throne that way, then they'd be king. I mean, it's the way it is in story.

But where the story is going seems to be something between force and bloodline. A major problem in the story is that people (lords and smallfolk) don't really know where to invest authority anymore. There's never been a legal body invested with authority in itself that people recognize, so it's been a struggle between blood and force.

Something like a king, raised by "the people," with the adjacent establishment of some sort of legal authority (a constitution or a Magna Carta) is something I think might be possible for the end of this. Like, the sort of thing that would establish a social contract and render something like Robert's Rebellion "legal."

It's not a return to the old order, nor is it completely a new order. Rather, it would be a reform of the current system. It's changed too far to go back, but it's also not at the point for something altogether extreme. I actually think this fits.

ETA:Oh, and fuck mance.

You can't post this shit and then complain about "lemoncake victimization" brah.

[Roddy the Ruin]

nooooope. anyone who has at least one targ parent should be banned from ruling anything ever. Anyone with TWO targ parents should just go away.

ETA:Oh, and fuck mance.

Ohhhh, E-Rizzle...... Even with your Stannis is love Stannis is life mentality I still love you.

[Drake Heath]

A council of two foreigners and one bastard?

Yeah that dynasty is going to be great.

The metal aspect is lost on me as well.

It's like they don't know how countries are ran.

[Stormland's Fury]

It's like they don't know how countries are ran.

Ramsay should be in that council, he probably knows how to use a Iron Maiden.

But seriously how would those three be able to bring anything good to table?

If anything the just take someone from every region and put them in the council, if we're already abolishing the monarchy altogether.