E-Ro Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 But Stannis is love. And is life. :agree: He is also the stranger, come to judge us all. ​shout out to your sig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 But Stannis is love. And is life. Share the Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To catch a Lannister Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 :agree: He is also the stranger, come to judge us all. ​shout out to your sig. Yeah man not to mention he's a total bamf too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 go all in or go home. Don't "dabble". Did you miss the bit where she chose to stay in Meereen and married Hizdahr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Yeah man not to mention he's a total bamf too http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102273-call-him-stannis-bamfatheon-why-dont-you/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 And the second the people try to do anything they get butchered by men in armor with steel weapons. The very same lords they are trying to take power away from. The people of westeros don't obey their lords out of love or respect, they obey them so they don't get horribly murdered. As long as the lords have money to pay men to fight for them, the smallfolk are powerless. Knights and men at arms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hungry pissed off smallfolk. Remember when jon first joined the watch and he was beating the shit out of everyone training? It would go like that. I dont think the commoners have enough power to make any sort of change, otherwise they most likely already would have. No, I mean when the people who fight stop obeying, things change. Some people follow their lords out fear as you mention. But others follow out of some sort of idealism or because their lord protects their interests in some capacity. Think about Varys. The one time we should all listen to Varys seems to be frequently ignored. Compare this: Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less….A shadow on the wall. Varys, aCoK, Tyrion II to this: "Power struggles seem to be omnipresent in every field of human endeavor, extending all the way up and down society. We assume that power has a certain reality. Apart from comic books, where Superman has the power to fly, the only power real human beings have is the power they think they have. You see that sometimes in the collapse of a society. Why did the Soviet Union fall? Because one day the Kremlin gave orders and the soldiers said no, and the whole thing fell apart. It's a fundamental truth that I think Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., hit on, that power depends on the obedience of the less powerful. A leader is powerful only when he says jump and people jump. He has no actual power to make them jump. It's their belief that he has power. It's an illusion, a shadow on the wall. And sometimes people stop jumping, and then the world changes." G.R.R. Martin, WSJ, March 6, 2014 Varys is basically a stand-in for Martin in that passage. Like, this is really what Martin seems interested in, and it's already starting to manifest in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Did you miss the bit where she chose to stay in Meereen and married Hizdahr? Did you miss the bit where she wants to return to Westeros? Did you miss the bit where she started the war long before she ever thought about marrying him? Did you miss the bit, where she seemed ready to break the peace that she had just forged? Also, once she married Hizdahr, did she explicity give up her quest for like say 20 years or more? I think it would take at least that long to bring about the changes she wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Did you miss the bit where she wants to return to Westeros? Did you miss the bit where she started the war long before she ever thought about marrying him? Did you miss the bit, where she seemed ready to break the peace that she had just forged? Also, once she married Hizdahr, did she explicity give up her quest for like say 20 years or more? I think it would take at least that long to bring about the changes she wanted. Marrying a Great Master is pretty firm evidence that she is prepared to go 'all in' to learn how to rule and bring stability to SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
To catch a Lannister Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102273-call-him-stannis-bamfatheon-why-dont-you/ Woahh that's actually a really cool thread, that guys really clever for coming up with that title Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Marrying a Great Master is pretty firm evidence that she is prepared to go 'all in' to learn how to rule and bring stability to SB. I don't think so. She probably thought that a couple years of peace might help her implement her reforms. But, a few years probably wouldn't be enough. Try a few decades or generations. I don't think she ever gave up returning to Westeros in her heart, despite marrying him. At any rate, she should have realized the time commitment long before she started the war. You don't just change an entire social and economic system and hope you can pull off it 1 or 2 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 No, I mean when the people who fight stop obeying, things change. Some people follow their lords out fear as you mention. But others follow out of some sort of idealism or because their lord protects their interests in some capacity. Think about Varys. The one time we should all listen to Varys seems to be frequently ignored. Compare this: Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less….A shadow on the wall. Varys, aCoK, Tyrion II to this: "Power struggles seem to be omnipresent in every field of human endeavor, extending all the way up and down society. We assume that power has a certain reality. Apart from comic books, where Superman has the power to fly, the only power real human beings have is the power they think they have. You see that sometimes in the collapse of a society. Why did the Soviet Union fall? Because one day the Kremlin gave orders and the soldiers said no, and the whole thing fell apart. It's a fundamental truth that I think Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., hit on, that power depends on the obedience of the less powerful. A leader is powerful only when he says jump and people jump. He has no actual power to make them jump. It's their belief that he has power. It's an illusion, a shadow on the wall. And sometimes people stop jumping, and then the world changes."G.R.R. Martin, WSJ, March 6, 2014 Varys is basically a stand-in for Martin in that passage. Like, this is really what Martin seems interested in, and it's already starting to manifest in the books.I don't buy this though. Why would the people who fight stop obeying? Its pretty much in their best interests to NOT stop obeying. Power=money. The guy with the most money is invariably the guy with the most goons. And so long as there are men willing to perform military service in return for cash, the lords will retain their might. The system of livery and maintenance is going to be incredibly difficult for westeros to break out of, much as it was difficult in real life and took lots of time and tons of factors. It didn't happen over night, and I doubt it will happen over night in westeros either. I just dont see the people rising up and making any sort of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I don't think so. She probably thought that a couple years of peace might help her implement her reforms. But, a few years probably wouldn't be enough. Try a few decades or generations. I don't think she ever gave up returning to Westeros in her heart, despite marrying him. At any rate, she should have realized the time commitment long before she started the war. You don't just change an entire social and economic system and hope you can pull off it 1 or 2 years. Nor should she give up on her claim to Westeros but I think she made a genuine effort to bring peace and stability to SB. She married a slaver, has compromised her principles, chained her dragons, refuses to allow the shavepate to wipe out the noble families and resists advice to just leave this shithole and head west. You are the one putting a timeframe on it. I don't recall Dany's pov ever mentioning how long long she specifically thinks she needs to hang around for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 I don't buy this though. Why would the people who fight stop obeying? Its pretty much in their best interests to NOT stop obeying. Power=money. The guy with the most money is invariably the guy with the most goons. And so long as there are men willing to perform military service in return for cash, the lords will retain their might. The system of livery and maintenance is going to be incredibly difficult for westeros to break out of, much as it was difficult in real life and took lots of time and tons of factors. It didn't happen over night, and I doubt it will happen over night in westeros either. I just dont see the people rising up and making any sort of change. Brah, are the Riverlands people actually obeying their Lannister and Frey overlords? Are you under the impression that the North is not downright mutinous? Remember how Arthur Dayne went out of his way to out-Robin Hood the Kingswood Brotherhood? Because otherwise, the commoners wouldn't turn on the Brotherhood, as the Brotherhood was representing their interests. Same thing with the BwB. And now Cersei brilliantly signed a decree allowing the smallfolk to basically take up arms for themselves. If money= power, then why was Tywin not king? Also, why are you bringing sellswords into this? And why are you talking in terms of a completely new form of government? There's a lot of space between disenfranchised smallfolk rising up to demand some sort of responsibility from their lords in terms of protection and provisions in a basically absolutist system, versus giving them vote in a new democracy or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Brah, are the Riverlands people actually obeying their Lannister and Frey overlords? Are you under the impression that the North is not downright mutinous? Remember how Arthur Dayne went out of his way to out-Robin Hood the Kingswood Brotherhood? Because otherwise, the commoners wouldn't turn on the Brotherhood, as the Brotherhood was representing their interests. Same thing with the BwB. And now Cersei brilliantly signed a decree allowing the smallfolk to basically take up arms for themselves. If money= power, then why was Tywin not king? Also, why are you bringing sellswords into this? And why are you talking in terms of a completely new form of government? There's a lot of space between disenfranchised smallfolk rising up to demand some sort of responsibility from their lords in terms of protection and provisions in a basically absolutist system, versus giving them vote in a new democracy or something.The riverlands aren't defying the lannisters and freys, are they? In the north its not the common people that are mutinous, its the lords of the north. The people like manderly, glovers, etc. No common folk involved in that. and dont for a second think those very same northern lords wouldn't put down a movement of smallfolk on their lands with extreme prejudice. Was the kingswood brotherhood ever a threat to the lords power? You have a point about cersei, but taking up arms doesn't mean you know how to use them, nor does it mean you have access to them magically. Because he never saw fit to make a bid for the throne. And thats besides the fact that with the north, vale, riverlands, and stormlands all combined those areas very likely had more money combined then just tywin. And, lets not forget, for a period of time between the battle of the blackwater and his death he pretty much was king in all but name. What do you mean about sellswords? My point wrt men willing to fight for money was just to show that the lords will have people that fight for them that actually know how to fight if the smallfolk tried to rise up. I might be misunderstanding you brah, your last point has me thinking were arguing over different things. You don't actually mean a new different form of government in which the lords have far less power? ETA: Eh, looking back perhaps i jumped into this too quickly. you'll have to forgive me, I just love questioning you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Targdust Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 The lords can't quell everything all at once.Mace would be shutting down the little High Sparrow coup if his army wasn't elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 The lords can't quell everything all at once.Mace would be shutting down the little High Sparrow coup if his army wasn't elsewhere. Mace is just sitting there, sweating like a gigantic cheese, while everything falls apart around him. He becomes so ineffective once he has to, you know, actually do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 The riverlands aren't defying the lannisters and freys, are they? In the north its not the common people that are mutinous, its the lords of the north. The people like manderly, glovers, etc. No common folk involved in that. and dont for a second think those very same northern lords wouldn't put down a movement of smallfolk on their lands with extreme prejudice. Was the kingswood brotherhood ever a threat to the lords power? You have a point about cersei, but taking up arms doesn't mean you know how to use them, nor does it mean you have access to them magically.Because he never saw fit to make a bid for the throne. And thats besides the fact that with the north, vale, riverlands, and stormlands all combined those areas very likely had more money combined then just tywin. And, lets not forget, for a period of time between the battle of the blackwater and his death he pretty much was king in all but name.What do you mean about sellswords? My point wrt men willing to fight for money was just to show that the lords will have people that fight for them that actually know how to fight if the smallfolk tried to rise up.I might be misunderstanding you brah, your last point has me thinking were arguing over different things. You don't actually mean a new different form of government in which the lords have far less power?The people in the Riverlands are expressly supporting the BwB, which is in direct opposition to the Lannisters and Freys, so yea, they are. The fact that the lords in the North are mutinous is important in this, as we're talking about chain of command, and we have the next tier of lords seeking a coup. And if the commoners of the North decided they'd rather be fed than fight, then those lords are SOL. Because how on earth are they going to enforce obedience? None of these armies are made of a majority of knights. The bulk of these armies are not "professional" fighters. Like, the "broken men" running around the Riverlands right now. So these people, who make up the majority of armies, were just told they could take up arms for "the Faith." And the Faith has basically taken up an anti-lord, pro-commoner stance. Which means that Cersei just declared it was legal for the bulk of men who'd be the ones fighting in these armies to take up their own cause. Against lords. Sellswords fight for money, but they aren't willing to die for it. You want men to die for you, then you best give them a good reason to. Some abstract ideal, or tangible benefit, or even fear of a worse outcome. Sellswords won't do that. Even though Tywin was richer, the sellswords he hired against Robb actually went over to Robb's side when they saw he was winning in a battle. Because they won't die for you. And no, I'm definitely not arguing that the outcome of all this would be a republic or democracy. I think the resolution might be closer to something like a constitutional monarchy, putting the sense of a social contract into law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Just for reference though, and so I dont look like a complete clown, here is a list of peasant revolts that failed horribly. Also, none of these revolts were looking for a major change in government either, mostly smaller concessions were wanted. they were put don just the same though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai_Nagy_Antal_Revolt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenian_peasant_revolt_of_1515 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gy%C3%B6rgy_D%C3%B3zsa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant_revolt_in_Flanders_1323%E2%80%931328 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._George%27s_Night_Uprising http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquerie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_peasants%27_revolt_of_1381 <--- probably the most famous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harelle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Targdust Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Mace is just sitting there, sweating like a gigantic cheese, while everything falls apart around him. He becomes so ineffective once he has to, you know, actually do something.Meaning he can't squash an uprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormland's Fury Posted April 24, 2014 Share Posted April 24, 2014 Meaning he can't squash an uprising. He barely can squash a fly. Especially if his mother doesn't specifically tells him to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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