What do you think of this argument that I found for why Dany isn't a good ruler?

[Ziggy Targdust]

He barely can squash a fly. Especially if his mother doesn't specifically tells him to.

I bet he twirls his moustache

[E-Ro]

The people in the Riverlands are expressly supporting the BwB, which is in direct opposition to the Lannisters and Freys, so yea, they are. The fact that the lords in the North are mutinous is important in this, as we're talking about chain of command, and we have the next tier of lords seeking a coup. And if the commoners of the North decided they'd rather be fed than fight, then those lords are SOL. Because how on earth are they going to enforce obedience?

None of these armies are made of a majority of knights. The bulk of these armies are not "professional" fighters. Like, the "broken men" running around the Riverlands right now. So these people, who make up the majority of armies, were just told they could take up arms for "the Faith." And the Faith has basically taken up an anti-lord, pro-commoner stance. Which means that Cersei just declared it was legal for the bulk of men who'd be the ones fighting in these armies to take up their own cause. Against lords.

Sellswords fight for money, but they aren't willing to die for it. You want men to die for you, then you best give them a good reason to. Some abstract ideal, or tangible benefit, or even fear of a worse outcome. Sellswords won't do that. Even though Tywin was richer, the sellswords he hired against Robb actually went over to Robb's side when they saw he was winning in a battle. Because they won't die for you.

And no, I'm definitely not arguing that the outcome of all this would be a republic or democracy. I think the resolution might be closer to something like a constitutional monarchy, putting the sense of a social contract into law.

Actually, the bulk of these armies are professional. you dont have to be a knight to be a professional, mostly the lords retinues/retainers make up the armies of westeros. The lords affinities. Even professionals can be broken men though, even the most well trained man can break. didnt you read my castle op brah?!?!?!

And also, there is too much stock being put in this "sell-swords don't die for money" comment. There were tons of professional mercenary companies in real life that were incredibly effective, and yes, they were willing to die for a contract in many cases. landschneckts, the swiss, genose crossbows etc.

But anyway, im willing to admit I was wrong in my original assertion. I hope thats enough for you. Sorry i questioned your authority.

[To catch a Lannister]

He barely can squash a fly. Especially if his mother doesn't specifically tells him to.

He can sure as hell squash a feast though, Mance should have been a baker, really has the look and disposition for it

[Stormland's Fury]

He can sure as hell squash a feast though, Mance should have been a baker, really has the look and disposition for it

Squashes a roasted pig in no time.

Hot Pie is his bastard.

What?! Hot Pie married to Daenerys and he becomes the Tyrell king <3

Let the crackpot begin. Nothing surprises me anymore.

[OldGimletEye]

You are the one putting a timeframe on it. I don't recall Dany's pov ever mentioning how long long she specifically thinks she needs to hang around for.

Ok what do you think? You think people just pull these reforms off in a couple of years? How about ten? How about 20? The reason I am the one putting a time frame on it is BECAUSE THESE TYPE OF SOCIAL REFORMS TAKE A LONG TIME. The fact she doesn't ever think about the time it will take, means she still seems to be a little clueless.

And despite her marriage, Dany in last chapter concludes that "Dragons Plant No Trees". And what do you think implementing successful social reform is? I would call that tree planting. Seems she kind of regressed on her comittment.

[butterbumps!]

Just for reference though, and so I dont look like a complete clown, here is a list of peasant revolts that failed horribly. Also, none of these revolts were looking for a major change in government either, mostly smaller concessions were wanted. they were put don just the same though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai_Nagy_Antal_Revolt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenian_peasant_revolt_of_1515

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gy%C3%B6rgy_D%C3%B3zsa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasant_revolt_in_Flanders_1323%E2%80%931328

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._George%27s_Night_Uprising

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacquerie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_peasants%27_revolt_of_1381 <--- probably the most famous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harelle

Ok. But Martin's world is not remotely an exact replica to our history (for example, complete continental war, + 3 dragons, + ice demons + shadow monstrosities, + Bloodraven's game, all at once).

What does it matter if such a revolt "fails" or succeeds? And how do you measure failure? The point I'm making is that the smallfolk are becoming increasingly less obedient, they will throw a complete shitfit when the food runs out and there are wights running around willy nilly, and they will end up influencing the way power manifests by the end of all this. Like, I don't think the smallfolk will be getting welfare packages or universal suffrage, but I think they'll push with enough pressure to bring forth concessions, which would reform the power structure.

Actually, the bulk of these armies are professional. you dont have to be a knight to be a professional, mostly the lords retinues/retainers make up the armies of westeros. The lords affinities. Even professionals can be broken men though, even the most well trained man can break. didnt you read my castle op brah?!?!?!

And also, there is too much stock being put in this "sell-swords don't die for money" comment. There were tons of professional mercenary companies in real life that were incredibly effective, and yes, they were willing to die for a contract in many cases. landschneckts, the swiss, etc.

But anyway, im willing to admit I was wrong in my original assertion. I hope thats enough for you. Sorry i questioned your authority.

They aren't "full time" fighters was the point (that's why I put "professional" in quotes). They're pretty much the HS's target audience.

Real life =/= ASOIAF. The sellswords we see are not willing to die for money. Sellswords are not a panacea to a lord's problems.

But sure, it seems like you were under the impression I was arguing for democracy. So no, I'm not. Not even slightly.

ouch.

sooooooooorry.

If you're going to get cute, perhaps refrain from "Mance sucks" posts straight out of the gates, brah.

[E-Ro]

Ok. But Martin's world is not remotely an exact replica to our history (for example, complete continental war, + 3 dragons, + ice demons + shadow monstrosities, + Bloodraven's game, all at once).

What does it matter if such a revolt "fails" or succeeds? And how do you measure failure? The point I'm making is that the smallfolk are becoming increasingly less obedient, they will throw a complete shitfit when the food runs out and there are wights running around willy nilly, and they will end up influencing the way power manifests by the end of all this. Like, I don't think the smallfolk will be getting welfare packages or universal suffrage, but I think they'll push with enough pressure to bring forth concessions, which would reform the power structure.

They aren't "full time" fighters was the point (that's why I put "professional" in quotes). They're pretty much the HS's target audience, was my point.

Real life =/= ASOIAF. The sellswords we see are not willing to die for money. Sellswords are not a panacea to a lord's problems.

But sure, it seems like you were under the impression I was arguing for democracy. So no, I'm not. Not even slightly.

ouch.

sooooooooorry.

brah please dont be upset with me, I thought i was making fair point!

[To catch a Lannister]

Guys... http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcq6lrOTiB1qfc4s9.gif

[butterbumps!]

ouch.

sooooooooorry.

brah please dont be upset with me, I thought i was making fair point!

lol, brah brah, I'm not upset. I just couldn't figure out why you kept arguing with me until I realized you thought I was a democracy advocate. Because that was getting really confusing from my angle. And, to be honest, I was getting close to asking you if this was all leading up to some conclusion to advocate for Stannis as King or something.

You should really trust your "handler" (apparently) a bit more, brah.

[OldGimletEye]

Butterbumps!, I really enjoy our arguments. So much, I spent way too much time today doing it.

[E-Ro]

If you're going to get cute, perhaps refrain from "Mance sucks" posts straight out of the gates, brah.

Alright, that was wrong of me. You have my sincerest of apologies. It wont happen again.(well, it might)

Guys... http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcq6lrOTiB1qfc4s9.gif

hahaha, i already stood down.

lol, brah brah, I'm not upset. I just couldn't figure out why you kept arguing with me until I realized you thought I was a democracy advocate. Because that was getting really confusing from my angle. And, to be honest, I was getting close to asking you if this was all leading up to some conclusion to advocate for Stannis as King or something.

You should really trust your "handler" (apparently) a bit more, brah.

For a second i was terrified. Love you brah brah.

and lol, i should trust you more.

[butterbumps!]

Butterbumps!, I really enjoy our arguments. So much, I spent way too much time today doing it.

lol, me too. I normally have no business being on here either. It's usually a "multi-tasking" experiment.

Alright, that was wrong of me. You have my sincerest of apologies. It wont happen again.(well, it might)

For a second i was terrified. Love you brah brah.

and lol, i should trust you more.

at this point, I'm just surprised you haven't incorporated "Fuck Mance, that lute playing jackass" into your sig or something. But seriously. You're an American, brah-- you should be throwing that fanatical support behind him rather than the guy who wants to preserve the aristocracy.

ETA: you were probably right not to trust me, in retrospect.

[Lyse Stark]

No, I mean when the people who fight stop obeying, things change.

Some people follow their lords out fear as you mention. But others follow out of some sort of idealism or because their lord protects their interests in some capacity.

Think about Varys. The one time we should all listen to Varys seems to be frequently ignored. Compare this:

Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less….A shadow on the wall.

Varys, aCoK, Tyrion II

to this:

"Power struggles seem to be omnipresent in every field of human endeavor, extending all the way up and down society. We assume that power has a certain reality. Apart from comic books, where Superman has the power to fly, the only power real human beings have is the power they think they have. You see that sometimes in the collapse of a society. Why did the Soviet Union fall? Because one day the Kremlin gave orders and the soldiers said no, and the whole thing fell apart. It's a fundamental truth that I think Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr., hit on, that power depends on the obedience of the less powerful. A leader is powerful only when he says jump and people jump. He has no actual power to make them jump. It's their belief that he has power. It's an illusion, a shadow on the wall. And sometimes people stop jumping, and then the world changes."

G.R.R. Martin, WSJ, March 6, 2014

Varys is basically a stand-in for Martin in that passage. Like, this is really what Martin seems interested in, and it's already starting to manifest in the books.

Exactly. Remember that many revolutions began when the people felt dissatisfied with their leaders, and feel that they deserve better.

[SeanF]

WRT the Smallfolk, the likelihood is that the longer the fighting goes on, the greater the number of them that have had some form of military training and access to weapons (eg, the Goldcloaks' numbers are tripled, and they are mostly Smallfolk). Many of the existing semi-professional soldiers will also have been drawn from that class. Lesser gentry depend very much on the Smallfolk staying alive to work their land. These are all elements that could fight for change if starvation bites.

[starki]

King beyond the wall ? To borrow the immortal Bart Simpson, I will eat my shorts if he ever packs up anything resembling a threat to other Houses since Stannis defeated his army and once Others will invade. Moreso if he ends up anywhere near the throne.

[starki]

Well, that's really kind of what Dany did in Meereen. But the big turning point is that once she sat that throne, she realizes she doesn't want to rule.

I'm honestly kind of wondering what sort of "claimants" we're even going to have by the time the "ultimate" monarch sits the throne. I kind of get the sense most will be out of the game before that point. Which is part of why I think we might see someone on the throne not put there through conquest, but as some sort of agreement when some of the dust settles.

Really ? Folk and the lords couldn't even agree on Stannis, and he was the heir by law, and by Robert's last will.

I think the Iron Throne will go down to conquest/political wedding, like Robert won the Throne (which is why I am rooting for Daenerys and Stannis teaming up). Alternatively, people and lords go ga-ga over whoever will save them from the Other invasion...not that anyone is on the horizon just yet.

[E-Ro]

at this point, I'm just surprised you haven't incorporated "Fuck Mance, that lute playing jackass" into your sig or something. But seriously. You're an American, brah-- you should be throwing that fanatical support behind him rather than the guy who wants to preserve the aristocracy.

Sorry brah brah, I only back winners, not total losers. Mance managed to assert himself as king beyond the wall by being the biggest clown around. That isnt something that should be applauded imo.

ETA: you were probably right not to trust me, in retrospect.

lol, yeah, you can only fool me with ape trolls so many times.

[Ziggy Targdust]

Sorry brah brah, I only back winners, not total losers. Mance managed to assert himself as king beyond the wall by being the biggest clown around. That isnt something that should be applauded imo.

Being the biggest clown around is still a better achievement than being born with the right last name

[Lyse Stark]

Sorry brah brah, I only back winners, not total losers. Mance managed to assert himself as king beyond the wall by being the biggest clown around. That isnt something that should be applauded imo.lol, yeah, you can only fool me with ape trolls so many times.

E-Ro-shizzle, many of your argument are total BS. Have you even realized that by the time ADoS come around, it will be Stannis, Dany, FAegon, and Euron who are the big losers, and all four might be six feet under the ground, while the people chose Jon because he chose to protect them. And that the current rounds of claimants may end up killing each other, directly or indirectly? That will produce a power vacuum that will enable the smallfolk to raise up a king of their own choosing.

Mance isn't a clown; he cares about his people and he knew that getting beyond the Wall was the best option for his own people, especially with the Others turning so many of their number into wights.

[E-Ro]

E-Ro-shizzle, many of your argument are total BS. Have you even realized that by the time ADoS come around, it will be Stannis, Dany, FAegon, and Euron who are the big losers, and all four might be six feet under the ground, while the people chose Jon because he chose to protect them. And that the current rounds of claimants may end up killing each other, directly or indirectly? That will produce a power vacuum that will enable the smallfolk to raise up a king of their own choosing.

Mance isn't a clown; he cares about his people and he knew that getting beyond the Wall was the best option for his own people, especially with the Others turning so many of their number into wights.

This is honestly one of the most moronic things I have ever read on the internet. Congratulations for that.

Lets just sum up this argument real quick.

Me- I dont root for losers, only winners.

you- STANNIS MIGHT BE A LOSER IN THE NEXT BOOK SO HAHAHAHAHA!

you dont have a magical crystal ball that tells you the future, and you arent the author of the books. So cut this bullshit out. your guess on what happens next is as good as anyone elses.

anyway, the smallfolk electing a king of their own choosing in a feudal setting is something that never happened in our world and never would have for very specific reasons. But as the lovely lemoncakes! pointed out real history doesnt equate to what will happen in asoiaf. that being said I highly doubt the direction this is going ends with the smallfolk rising up and putting jon on the throne. Thats pretty much just a jon fangirls dream. Sounds more like something out of a Disney movie, why not just go watch peter pan or some shit.

As for mance being a clown, the fact that he thought he would save his people by invading the south, but instead got his ass kicked by an army a fraction the size of his speaks volumes to how much of a clown he is.