why all the Aegon hate:

[WhiteOwl18]

The point is, Daenerys has a "known provenance": nobody can question that this girl is truly the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, born on Dragonstone. Her movements have been tracked, her position known, there are no missing gaps, and, importantly, nobody has ever reported her dead, followed by a gap of over fifteen entire years before she has ever been heard of again.

That huge time gap, and the fact that nobody disputed it when the real prince was reported dead, is what makes Aegon questionable. And the fact that the whole story of the Prince Swap falls down at the point where he was supposed to have been swapped with "a random boy from Pisswater Bend": random boys from Pisswater Bend in the slums of King's Landing do not look like pure blooded Targaryens. And *especially* they don't look like pure-blooded Targaryens when what you should actually see is somebody who may have MOSTLY had his father's features (it is said that Baby Aegon looked more like his father) but would have at least had SOME hint of Dornish features, if only a slightly darker skin colour than the classic Targaryen look.

The story does not stand up under close scrutiny, and even Jon Connington only believes it because he truly wants to believe in the son of his beloved Rhaegar. And what he's got is a kid who looks like, well, mostly, his imagination and memories of a young Rhaegar: not "mostly Rhaegar with a hint of Dornish".

And the swapping of the princes story, is the conspirators (Varys / Illyrio) telling people what they want to hear: that the boy who died is "not a person of any importance - the important one was saved". Illyrio is the one who gets allowed to say this line (pandering to the noble's idea that the nobility are Intrinsically More Important People, and the Targaryens the most important of all), because Varys is the one who goes on and on about how it is always the smallfolk who lose when the high lords play their game of thrones: yet it is Illyrio and Varys who are doing the playing, responsible for much of the death, murder, rape and pillage of the smallfolk. Varys and Illyrio are *liars*, as evil as Littlefinger. When it comes to wanting to protect "the realm" or "the smallfolk", they talk the talk very well indeed, Varys especially, but they most certainly DO NOT walk the walk. And if one prince can be smuggled out, there is absolutely no reason to smuggle a replacement in: why should Aegon not have openly been sent to Dragonstone to join Viserys, and be smuggled out of there by Ser Willem Darry? BECAUSE HE WAS NOT SMUGGLED OUT AT ALL, is the only possible answer.

Aegon himself has been prepared and coached so well that even *he* believes himself genuine. But in all of Varys's speech, among all the skills that Aegon has allegedly learned, not a one of them is useful when it comes to actually RULING. Because what you want, in a ruler, is judgement and justice: someone to be able to appoint the right person to the right position, and make judgements and laws that make the realm prosperous, stable and happy. All that stuff about seeing crops harvested and knowing how fish, farm, speak languages, understand the mysteries of the Faith and bind up a wound is pandering to the idea of "hey, this guy can do anything" that Varys is trying to *sell* to everyone. It's basically bullshit. Salesman-talk. The person who will be doing the actual ruling is Varys.

Conclusion: Varys was either lying, or telling half-truths, and his intended audience wasn't Kevan, but the "little birds", believing or knowing that some of them may be now in the service of other people. Littlefinger, right in the very first books, knows about Varys's "little birds", which presumably means that some are reporting to him: others, right now, are reporting to Qyburn, who in turn reports to Cersei. Varys is spreading disinformation, or partially accurate information, to Littlefinger and Cersei.

I agree 100%. Well done! :bowdown:

[Bael's Bastard]

Varys is arguably one of the key people responsible for destabilizing Targaryen rule. He likely thwarted Rhaegar's plans to remove Aerys by accusing him of plotting to Aerys. When all was said and done, the king, his heir, and his heir's children were dead, while his wife and two other children were condemned to exile. I am not sure what Varys is, but I am sure he is not a Targeryen loyalist.

[Mladen]

Yes this is comparable. You're just telling that (f)Viserys is reliable, while Varys/Illyrio are not. Of course I'm not telling Dany and Viserys were fake, but I'm trying to say that Aegon is no more questionable than them just because he threatens Daenerys' claim.

By the way, you would agree that there must be "three heads" to the dragon. If Aegon is not the third, who is it then? Someone who will join in the last pages, maybe? Or Tyrion, Arya, or some other crackpot theorie? What is more believable : that Aegon is true, or that the third head is still hidden at this point of the series?

No, it's not. You are stretching the logic here so it would accommodate your position. There is nothing that suggest Viserys and Dany are not who they say they are, which can't be said the same for Aegon. Especially given the fact that no one from Westeros was with him to confirm his story. His claim is far more questionable than Daenerys, and it is laughable to compare two cases.

I agree that there are three heads. But I also believe that there is one dragon aka one person.

For the rest, Aegon being a fake is only assumptions. Varys and Illyrio would not leave him for years with a band of total strangers (who believe he's Rheagar's son). That doesn't make any sense.

But they did. Jon Con appeared five years after RR... And Aegon being real is also speculation. People lie, you know.

[The Eunuch]

Varys is arguably one of the key people responsible for destabilizing Targaryen rule. He likely thwarted Rhaegar's plans to remove Aerys by accusing him of plotting to Aerys. When all was said and done, the king, his heir, and his heir's children were dead, while his wife and two other children were condemned to exile. I am not sure what Varys is, but I am sure he is not a Targeryen loyalist.

Basically, what you say is that the messenger is responsible for the content of the message. Varys should have lied to Aerys and let them all plot against him, then he would be a "Targaryen loyalist" on your definition. He was loyal to the king, that's all.

There is nothing that suggest Viserys and Dany are not who they say they are, which can't be said the same for Aegon. Especially given the fact that no one from Westeros was with him to confirm his story. His claim is far more questionable than Daenerys, and it is laughable to compare two cases.

Yes we can compare.

Aegon believes he's the real Aegon, like Viserys and Daenerys believe they're who they are. You have no proof that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, only assumptions. Admit it and you'll feel better.

[Bael's Bastard]

Nobody questions Dany's identity and Kevan says as much. Aegon and Jon are in somewhat similar boats in that their true identities are or were only known by a limited number of people, some of whom are dead or not likely to be believed on their word. alone. It remains to be seen how everything will play out.

[Mladen]

Yes we can compare.

Aegon believes he's the real Aegon, like Viserys and Daenerys believe they're who they are. You have no proof that Aegon is not Rhaegar's son, only assumptions. Admit it and you'll feel better.

And tell me what great proof you have for Aegon being real? Your claim is nothing more than assumption. Admit it and you'll feel better. You see how it works...

Now, no... Viserys was raised in Red Keep, he remembers his parents, Rhaegar and some other things. We believe he is who he says he is because he gave us enough proof to believe it. He considers Daenerys a sister, refers to her as a sister, was old enough to remember when she was born, and we have no reason to believe that she is not who Viserys and she say she is. So, your argument is grasping for straws of flawed logic to make it work...

[Mladen]

We only know for a surety that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's friend after joining the KG, not that they were friends before. Kind of a spurious argument anyway given Ser Arthur Dayne was Sword of the Morning, and therefore a viable candidate for KG.

Barristan said that Artur and Rheagar were oldest friends, meaning like a childhood friends.

[RainBow]

He gets all the hate because many of the fans are already a part of a camp so to speak. Most people already have a preferred ruler of the Iron throne.

May it be Dany, Stannis,Jon or even Sansa. The appearance of Aegon threatens their dreams and thus the dislike. And that we know so little of him are their outgoing justification.

I my self like from what I've seen this far and I do have hope for him.

[Salt 'n' Gravy]

Does it really matter if he's a fake though? He seems like legitimately the best candidate to rule (admittedly not saying much when compared to Stannis, Dany and Tommen) . But not being a Targ actually would be something in his favor because of their tendency to go mad.

How dare you insult Stannis!!!!

[Señor de la Tormenta]

And tell me what great proof you have for Aegon being real? Your claim is nothing more than assumption. Admit it and you'll feel better. You see how it works...

Now, no... Viserys was raised in Red Keep, he remembers his parents, Rhaegar and some other things. We believe he is who he says he is because he gave us enough proof to believe it. He considers Daenerys a sister, refers to her as a sister, was old enough to remember when she was born, and we have no reason to believe that she is not who Viserys and she say she is. So, your argument is grasping for straws of flawed logic to make it work...

And Daenerys has the damn dragons :(

[Bael's Bastard]

Rhaegar with the major lords and houses in Westeros moving together to remove Aerys from rule is in the best interest of all parties, and the realm. Varys helped incite the situations that led to the entirety of Westeros being plunged into all out war twice in less than twenty years. No, he is not solely responsible, but it stretches credulity that he is loyal to the Targaryens or the realm when his plots decimated both. Aerys may have intended for KL to be ashes when Robert arrived, but Varys seems to have intended for all of Westeros to be ashes for Aegon to rule.

[Needs More Salt]

*There were people who witnessed Dany and VIserys' birth.

*King Robert knew of their being smuggled East and kept an eye on them.

*King Robert attempted to kill them (Well, Dany for sure).

*Dany gave birth to dragons.

Whereas Aegon... well... umm... I guess there's nothing but the word of Ilyrio and Varys.

Frankly, Jaime and Cersei are more Targaryen than Aegon. At least they abide by Targaryen customs.

[The Eunuch]

And tell me what great proof you have for Aegon being real? Your claim is nothing more than assumption.

Innocent until proven guilty. Do you know that?

But I want to answer to you. He's real because:

-He believes he is Aegon.

-Jon Connington believes he's Aegon.

-Neiher Illyrio nor Varys have seen him for years. They even have provided him the best teachers. Quite a bad idea if they want to control him, right? It means that Varys trusts him and respects his judgment.

-Varys says he's Aegon to a dying man he shows respect to, which means he would not lie to him.

-Aegon has all the traits of the Targaryens. He hid for years, dyeing his hair.

-Varys's background confirms it (being loyal to Aerys after he saved him from stealing, sympathy for orphans in danger...).

-There is no proof, not even one, that he could be fake. Assumptions and interpretations of prophecies do not make proofs. I want facts.

Innocent until proven guilty. The accusers must give proofs, not the defenders.

Now, no... Viserys was raised in Red Keep, he remembers his parents, Rhaegar and some other things. We believe he is who he says he is because he gave us enough proof to believe it. He considers Daenerys a sister, refers to her as a sister, was old enough to remember when she was born, and we have no reason to believe that she is not who Viserys and she say she is. So, your argument is grasping for straws of flawed logic to make it work...

If I follow your rhetoric, Viserys could be lying, which leads us to the same problem that Aegon case.

[TheDragonPrince]

i dont take hes a pretender....because their would be no point of him being a blackfyre because even if he is a blackfyre everyone else will think hes targaryen so whats the point.i think that he will join dany or better jon(if he is rahaegars son) but will die.and i like him because of what varys said at the epilogue of dance.."he was raised to be a king"

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Innocent until proven guilty. Do you know that?

But I want to answer to you. He's real because:

-He believes he is Aegon.

-Jon Connington believes he's Aegon.

-Neiher Illyrio nor Varys have seen him for years. They even have provided him the best teachers. Quite a bad idea if they want to control him, right? It means that Varys trusts him and respects his judgment.

-Varys says he's Aegon to a dying man he shows respect to, which means he would not lie to him.

-Aegon has all the traits of the Targaryens. He hid for years, dying his hair.

-There is no proof, not even one, that he could be fake. Assumptions and interpretations of prophecies do not make proofs. I want facts.

Innocent until proven guilty. The accusers must give proofs, not the defenders.

If I follow your rhetoric, Viserys could be lying.

as roman said "habeas corpus".

We did have a body. We did have a mourderer. Aegon Targaryen is legally dead.

By the way, isnt convinient that the man who attended the birth and could know of some birth marks or whatever is now dead?

[WTFSalami]

Because Aegon is the asshole who stumbles out of the crowd with 1 mile left in the marathon and acts like he's been running the entire time.

[Bael's Bastard]

There's a Frey named Aegon too, doesn't make him Rhaegar's son. Varys could have been confirming Kevan's assumption, or being manipulative. Hopefully we will know for sure some day, but for now we don't. What he or Jon C have been led to believe is not proof. For now there is no proof that tells us explicitly his identity either way. I have no problem with people choosing to believe either way, but for now that's all it is.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Innocent until proven guilty. Do you know that?

But I want to answer to you. He's real because:

-He believes he is Aegon.

-Jon Connington believes he's Aegon.

-Neiher Illyrio nor Varys have seen him for years. They even have provided him the best teachers. Quite a bad idea if they want to control him, right? It means that Varys trusts him and respects his judgment.

-Varys says he's Aegon to a dying man he shows respect to, which means he would not lie to him.

-Aegon has all the traits of the Targaryens. He hid for years, dying his hair.

-There is no proof, not even one, that he could be fake. Assumptions and interpretations of prophecies do not make proofs. I want facts.

Innocent until proven guilty. The accusers must give proofs, not the defenders.

If I follow your rhetoric, Viserys could be lying.

as roman said "habeas corpus".

We did have a body. We did have a mourderer. Aegon Targaryen is legally dead.

By the way, isnt convinient that the man who attended the birth and could know of some birth marks or whatever is now dead?

[The Eunuch]

Varys could have been confirming Kevan's assumption, or being manipulative.

And what is the point of manipulating someone who's dying? So he can spread the lie in hell?

[The Eunuch]

By the way, isnt convinient that the man who attended the birth and could know of some birth marks or whatever is now dead?

Whether Aegon is real of fake, Pycelle would have supported the Lannisters. Plus, there is no proof that Pycelle attended his birth. And who has birth marks in the series, except Tyrion?