Jon is already Fire. He doesn't need to "join" with Dany

[Hippocras]

A lot of people think this match will happen.

Those who don't thin Jon will get together with Dany usually think so because of the following list of reasons:

1. She's his aunt. It is incest. Jon follows the old gods and is likely not ok with incest.

2. They think Jon will become the Night's King or an Other or some kind of undead.

3. They think Jon and Val is destiny. Or someone else, but most people think Val.

My argument against the idea is different. I think Jon will NOT end up marrying Dany because he represents metaphysical balance.

Dany is pure Fire.

Bran is the North, and Ice. Maybe the rest of the Stark kids as well.

But Jon is both. He is where opposites come together. Putting him with Dany makes Fire dominant. Putting him with Val makes Ice dominant. I do not think he will end up with either.

If he ends up with anyone it will be with someone who is also both, or he will end up with someone who represents yet another aspect of the necessary cosmic balance.

So who are the candidates for potentially being both ice and fire:

Shireen. She has Targaryen blood but is also touched by greyscale. She is also descended from the Storm Kings.

Allyria Dayne. Daynes might have some Targaryen blood, Martell blood and definitely some First Men blood. Allyria may not be who she seems - some speculate she is Ashara's daughter.

Asha. This is a weak maybe, but if Euron turns out to have some dragon blood, Asha would too. And their Greyjoy heritage seems somewhat icy.

The candidates who represent a completely different principle of balance:

Open to ideas!

[The Bittersteel]

A lot of people think this match will happen.

Those who don't thin Jon will get together with Dany usually think so because of the following list of reasons:

1. She's his aunt. It is incest. Jon follows the old gods and is likely not ok with incest.

2. They think Jon will become the Night's King or an Other or some kind of undead.

3. They think Jon and Val is destiny. Or someone else, but most people think Val.

My argument against the idea is different. I think Jon will NOT end up marrying Dany because he represents metaphysical balance.

Dany is pure Fire.

Bran is the North, and Ice. Maybe the rest of the Stark kids as well.

But Jon is both. He is where opposites come together. Putting him with Dany makes Fire dominant. Putting him with Val makes Ice dominant. I do not think he will end up with either.

If he ends up with anyone it will be with someone who is also both, or he will end up with someone who represents yet another aspect of the necessary cosmic balance.

So who are the candidates for potentially being both ice and fire:

Shireen. She has Targaryen blood but is also touched by greyscale. She is also descended from the Storm Kings.

Allyria Dayne. Daynes might have some Targaryen blood, Martell blood and definitely some First Men blood. Allyria may not be who she seems - some speculate she is Ashara's daughter.

Asha. This is a weak maybe, but if Euron turns out to have some dragon blood, Asha would too. And their Greyjoy heritage seems somewhat icy.

The candidates who represent a completely different principle of balance:

Open to ideas!

Possibly the hardest match to predict in my opinion is his possible future wife. Assuming he survives of course. I think Dany just doesn't work. Incest never seems to work out in the story and it wouldn't sit well with me if that's how it ends. I don't think their each others 'type' either. Any inevitable suggestion of Margaery if Tommen dies seems a bit laughable to me like a reverse Henry VIII. Maybe Arianne Martell is the best fit?

Edit: In regards to the 'Ice and Fire' symbolism, I agree he's both. Dany seems a red herring in this regard.

[Dr. Qyburn]

Tyrion: if you subscribe to the A + J = T theory

[danm_999]

Oh yeah, tons of subtle fire symbolism balances out Jon's icy Northern heritage/demeanour throughout the series.

• Jon is head of an order where you take vows which include the phrase "I am the fire that burns against the cold".
  
• He burnt a wight with a lantern. He has a horribly burnt hand.
  
• He wields a sword of steel forged in the fires of Valyria.
  
• His love Ygritte was "kissed-by-fire" (kissed by Jon!)
  
• When Melisandre looks into her fires; "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow."
  
• He has the following dream;
  

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

Yeah, I can totally buy Jon symbolises ice and fire by himself.

[Moondancer]

The idea behind Ice and Fire is far more universal. It's the theme rather than the protagonists; I admit it is perfectly possible and happens so often to have the theme represented by the characters. But it's more than that. And while many feel it is the battle that unites Jon and Daenerys, I think it is good for us, the readers, to comprehend certain aspects that set our story into motion ie Rhaegar and Lyanna. After all, love is the at the core of our beings, what makes us human.

However, saying Jon is not Ice, because he has Fire side too... That's bit silly. No family is Ice. They're all human. It is about the existence. In other words, they all burn.

The mirroring connection between those two is more important given their [magical] legacy and background and I will allow that precisely these aspects of their character building may take precedence. I however don't think that's GRRM, who quotes Faulkner insistently; magic may be the problem, but not the reason. It is always about human heart in conflict with itself.

Taking into consideration THE spoiler, it seems to me that it was never about the Others. It was always about us, the people. The grey characters, not black or white, the champions for fire or ice. Our battle against ourselves,onto ourselves. (Faulkner, hey there again)

P.s that incest argument grew stale. If the dynasty is at stake, the duty will be performed.

[MoIaF]

The idea behind Ice and Fire is far more universal. It's the theme rather than the protagonists; I admit it is perfectly possible and happens so often to have the theme represented by the characters. But it's more than that. And while many feel it is the battle that unites Jon and Daenerys, I think it is good for us, the readers, to comprehend certain aspects that set our story into motion ie Rhaegar and Lyanna. After all, love is the at the core of our beings, what makes us human.

However, saying Jon is not Ice, because he has Fire side too... That's bit silly. No family is Ice. They're all human. It is about the existence. In other words, they all burn.

The mirroring connection between those two is more important given their [magical] legacy and background and I will allow that precisely these aspects of their character building may take precedence. I however don't think that's GRRM, who quotes Faulkner insistently; magic may be the problem, but not the reason. It is always about human heart in conflict with itself.

Taking into consideration THE spoiler, it seems to me that it was never about the Others. It was always about us, the people. The grey characters, not black or white, the champions for fire or ice. Our battle against ourselves,onto ourselves. (Faulkner, hey there again)

P.s that incest argument grew stale. If the dynasty is at stake, the duty will be performed.

:agree: Very well said.

[danm_999]

that incest argument grew stale. If the dynasty is at stake, the duty will be performed.

The Targaryen dynasty doesn't need an incestuous marriage to survive though.

[Moondancer]

Maester,

Much obliged :)

The Targaryen dynasty doesn't need an incestuous marriage to survive though.

Yes, there's the male heir that looks nothing like the dragons and female with no right but is the epitome of the family. Hm...

Who shall bring more credibility in the society that deigned to scheme at various points in history just because the king was bookish and not a warrior, a diplomat and not a conqueror,married for love and not duty? Daenerys' identity cannot be questioned. Jon doesn't have the luxury and if he's to gain one, it will be with the aid from a person with sufficient authority. That's Dany. She's the dragon.

There's a mould, and if you, the King/Queen, don't fit it, you're a goner. No matter how much you claim you are ruling, you're actually serving.

[Hodor the Articulate]

The idea behind Ice and Fire is far more universal. It's the theme rather than the protagonists; I admit it is perfectly possible and happens so often to have the theme represented by the characters. But it's more than that. And while many feel it is the battle that unites Jon and Daenerys, I think it is good for us, the readers, to comprehend certain aspects that set our story into motion ie Rhaegar and Lyanna. After all, love is the at the core of our beings, what makes us human.

However, saying Jon is not Ice, because he has Fire side too... That's bit silly. No family is Ice. They're all human. It is about the existence. In other words, they all burn.

The mirroring connection between those two is more important given their [magical] legacy and background and I will allow that precisely these aspects of their character building may take precedence. I however don't think that's GRRM, who quotes Faulkner insistently; magic may be the problem, but not the reason. It is always about human heart in conflict with itself.

Taking into consideration THE spoiler, it seems to me that it was never about the Others. It was always about us, the people. The grey characters, not black or white, the champions for fire or ice. Our battle against ourselves,onto ourselves. (Faulkner, hey there again)

P.s that incest argument grew stale. If the dynasty is at stake, the duty will be performed.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: This series is as much about ice and fire as it is, ice vs. fire.

[danm_999]

Yes, there's the male heir that looks nothing like the dragons and female with no right but is the epitome of the family. Hm...

Who shall bring more credibility in the society that deigned to scheme at various points in history just because the king was bookish and not a warrior, a diplomat and not a conqueror,married for love and not duty? Daenerys' identity cannot be questioned. Jon doesn't have the luxury and if he's to gain one, it will be with the aid from a person with sufficient authority. That's Dany. She's the dragon.

There's a mould, and if you, the King/Queen, don't fit it, you're a goner. No matter how much you claim you are ruling, you're actually serving.

I don't see your point. Marrying Daenerys might give Jon symbollic legitimacy as a dragon, but that's all it does. It doesn't represent, and isn't, the only way to save the dynasty.

If Daenerys sits the Iron Throne, using her dragons or armies to claim it, and marries a non-relative, the Targaryen dynasty survives.

If Jon sits the Iron Throne, claiming it in a way similar to Robert (who looked precisely nothing like a dragon) and marries a non-relative, the Targaryen dynasty survives, even if he doesn't present his claim through Targaryen heritage (he may opt to present himself as a Stark).

The incestuous marriage is unneccessary to save the Targaryen dynasty. In fact, it might actually doom it. Can Daenerys even bear children?

With enough power and wisdom anyone can put anyone on the Iron Throne, regardless of someone's dragonblood bona-fides. After all, Aegon did not win the Seven Kingdoms because he married his sisters and styled himself as the Blood of Old Valyria. He had absolutely zero legitimacy or credibility to rule over anyone in Westeros, but managed to take it by force.

Aerys and Rhaegar were purest of the pure Targaryens, having every single symbol and ounce of credibility and authority of the Targaryen name to them, but lost it all to someone who had no more than a quarter of the dragon in them.

Renly had even less legitimacy than that, not even head of his own family, but managed to raise the largest army the realm has seen yet, and would have sat the Iron Throne if not for a shadowbaby.

Euron, a man who doesn't even have Targaryen ancestors at all, plans to sit the Iron Throne using brute force and winged machines of death.

That's all the Iron Throne is at the end of the day. Power and force. Not the symbol of the dragon. Power is where men believe it to be, and all that jazz, and if men believe the dragon lords have no power anymore, they don't. I suppose the dragons themselves have power, but Daenerys barely controls one of those. Who might the others go to?

[Hippocras]

Well I certainly agree with the post above that Jon is not the ONLY thing there is to the theme of Ice and Fire. The series is not really HIS song.

What I was trying to get at is that there is an element of metaphysical imbalance in these stories, and Ice and Fire are two poles.

When the world sways too far one way or the other, the result is not good.

Each pole has its associated magical phenomena. This leads the priests of R'hllor for example, to interpret it as a war for dominance of one or the other.

But they have it wrong I think. It is not about "light" (fire) dominating for good to prevail, but rather about balance.

The story will see Fire fighting Ice. It might see fire marry ice. It will see each pole of the greater metaphysical war go to scary extremes.

But Jon is special because he is both. And that is why he will not end up with someone who is one or the other of these poles IMO.

[To catch a Lannister]

Jon's pretty pragmatic. I don't think he really cares if he's Ice, Fire, Steel, or Psychic. He's not a pokemon. He'll do his duty for the realm(i.e. defend it form the walkers, become king, whatever) not because of his birthright or heritage but because it's in his character. The whole whose Ice? whose Fire? questions are pretty overrated imo.

[Winnief]

An Alliance will happen for sure, (we need those Dragons!) but there's no reason to think they'll be a couple.

[Hippocras]

Jon's pretty pragmatic. I don't think he really cares if he's Ice, Fire, Steel, or Psychic. He's not a pokemon. He'll do his duty for the realm(i.e. defend it form the walkers, become king, whatever) not because of his birthright or heritage but because it's in his character. The whole whose Ice? whose Fire? questions are pretty overrated imo.

Yes, he will do what is right for the realm, but what is right for the realm is not the continuation of imbalance.

He will be fighting a war for the dawn. This will be heavily about the dangers of magical extremes, one way or the other. Dragons taken too far create things like the Doom of Valyria. Ice magic, taken too far, leads to a night that never ends. The "good for the realm" in avoiding future imbalance will be clear.

[Hippocras]

An Alliance will happen for sure, (we need those Dragons!) but there's no reason to think they'll be a couple.

Of some sort I agree.

[To catch a Lannister]

Yes, he will do what is right for the realm, but what is right for the realm is not the continuation of imbalance.

He will be fighting a war for the dawn. This will be heavily about the dangers of magical extremes, one way or the other. Dragons taken too far create things like the Doom of Valyria. Ice magic, taken too far, leads to a night that never ends. The "good for the realm" in avoiding future imbalance will be clear.

I agree but him doing that isn't contingent on his stark/half targ heritage. He just really wouldn't care about that.

[Hippocras]

I agree but him doing that isn't contingent on his stark/half targ heritage. He just really wouldn't care about that.

Maybe not, but the author might.

[Errant Bard]

Too much is done of this ice and fire stuff. While you could say that Ygritte was "touched" by fire in more ways than one (ahem), she was not a Targaryen or a Stark, and Daario, Hidzar or Drogo have squat all to do with either of the families or the concepts.

And meanwhile, people say the two classic main characters will get together because that's what usually happens, and more importantly, because blue rose in a wall of ice vision is the biggest clue in regard to Jon being the son of Lyanna, and it's also a prophecy about Dany's loves.

[Hippocras]

Too much is done of this ice and fire stuff. While you could say that Ygritte was "touched" by fire in more ways than one (ahem), she was not a Targaryen or a Stark, and Daario, Hidzar or Drogo have squat all to do with either of the families or the concepts.And meanwhile, people say the two classic main characters will get together because that's what usually happens, and more importantly, because blue rose in a wall of ice vision is the biggest clue in regard to Jon being the son of Lyanna, and it's also a prophecy about Dany's loves.

It is likely a misinterpretation to see the rose as having anything to do with Dany's loves. Just because people are programmed to think a rose must mean romance, does not mean the vision had anything to do with it.

She saw a king with no shadow and a red sword too. Was that the love of her life?

The rose is Jon's symbol in the vision because of how his parents met. It doesn't mean anything else. HE is the blue rose growing up at the wall of ice.

One of Dany's titles in prophesies is "bride of fire" and Jon is not just fire.

[Hippocras]

Anyway, the OP asked the question, who else might qualify as both like Jon?

What other principles need balance on Planetos - anthropomorphic ones like the Seven?