Henry Tudor Parallel (it's not Jon Snow)

[Alia of the knife]

It's a great book, by far my favorite WOTR novel. I would love to see it made into a high quality series one day. Maybe when GOT is over HBO will take a whack at it :)

I'm not entirely sold on some of its depictions. I don't think Richard III was quite that saintly or that Elizabeth Woodville was quite so sinister. They are sure enjoyable characters to read though, very similar to Ned and Cersei.

No, I agree.

As much as I was drawn to Richard III, I do think of him in a more "Vlad Tepes" sort of way- ruthless and pragmatic. And no, I don't see Elizabeth as sinister so much as insecure, and insecure people can sometimes be the most tenatious, because you can never convince them that you aren't out to get them. I don't know if couples had conversations like we do today, but I do wonder if Edward ever actually tried to calm her fears?

"Cold" people who hold themselves aloof do so many times as a defensive mechanism.

I wonder what her reaction would be to straight talk, lol? "Hey look lady, I could care less your married to the King, just do a good job, okay? And don't ever ask me to Court." :P

[J. Stargaryen]

Complimenting the Henry VII/Perkin Warbeck hybrid that fAegon seems to represent, is that his participation in the upcoming Dance of the Dragons 2 means that it will actually be a Dance/Blackfyre Rebellion hybrid. Provided he is the fake that many of us suspect him to be.

Concerning possible Jon Snow/Henry VII parallels, there are a couple that come to mind that haven't been mentioned here yet. Henry was sometimes known as the Winter King, which mirrors the Kings of Winter title of the old Stark kings.

The other, which is a tad more speculative, is the possibility that Jon will adopt the blue rose as his sigil. If he ends up with a sigil at all.

There's also a passage from AGoT, Sansa II that I analyzed here in which Ser Loras's "snow-white" stallion was draped in a blanket of red and white roses.

[Mithras]

Henry won his kingdom in a battlefield while killing another king. Jon is armored in black ice in his dream. Mel saw a vision where he saw that Stannis leads his men against the dark. I think it is possible that JonCon and the remaning GC will join Stannis after the Dance was lost. Of course JonCon will probably be under a hidden identity. Then Jon and Stannis will fight, JonCon will turn his cloak for Jon and kill Stannis. He will see the son of Rhaegar to the throne and end the Usurper's male line for good as a rematch of him and Robert at the Battle of Bells.

[Alia of the knife]

Complimenting the Henry VII/Perkin Warbeck hybrid that fAegon seems to represent, is that his participation in the upcoming Dance of the Dragons 2 means that it will actually be a Dance/Blackfyre Rebellion hybrid. Provided he is the fake that many of us suspect him to be.

Concerning possible Jon Snow/Henry VII parallels, there are a couple that come to mind that haven't been mentioned here yet. Henry was sometimes known as the Winter King, which mirrors the Kings of Winter title of the old Stark kings.

The other, which is a tad more speculative, is the possibility that Jon will adopt the blue rose as his sigil. If he ends up with a sigil at all.

There's also a passage from AGoT, Sansa II that I analyzed here in which Ser Loras's "snow-white" stallion was draped in a blanket of red and white roses.

Always loved your analysis on this topic.

Henry won his kingdom in a battlefield while killing another king. Jon is armored in black ice in his dream. Mel saw a vision where he saw that Stannis leads his men against the dark. I think it is possible that JonCon and the remaning GC will join Stannis after the Dance was lost. Of course JonCon will probably be under a hidden identity. Then Jon and Stannis will fight, JonCon will turn his cloak for Jon and kill Stannis. He will see the son of Rhaegar to the throne and end the Usurper's male line for good as a rematch of him and Robert at the Battle of Bells.

THAT would be an interesting turn of events.

If I understand, you are saying there is a parallel between JonCon and Thomas Stanley in that at the last moment, he will turn for Jon?

(In this scenario, do you speculate that either fAegon is killed, or he finds out that he is not who he says he is)?

[Mithras]

THAT would be an interesting turn of events.

If I understand, you are saying there is a parallel between JonCon and Thomas Stanley in that at the last moment, he will turn for Jon?

(In this scenario, do you speculate that either fAegon is killed, or he finds out that he is not who he says he is)?

Yes that is what I think. By this time, fAegon will be already dead and the fAegon conspiracy will be done. Dany will be trying to recover her forces, subdue the last rebels etc. I expect things going ugly between Jon and Stannis as soon as Jon recovers from stabbing (and learns that Stanis sent the Pink Letter) until the bitter end.

After Jon defeats Stannis and he gets all the North at his back, his confrontation with Dany might take place.

I also expect JonCon's suspicions about fAegon to grow during the Dance. He already hates Varys. After Dany comes and spreads her own propoganda, JonCon might start to unite some pieces.

[Alia of the knife]

I expect things going ugly between Jon and Stannis as soon as Jon recovers from stabbing (and learns that Stanis sent the Pink Letter) until the bitter end.

That is interesting that you speculate that Stannis was the one who sent the letter. I don't think I've heard that theory before, so do you mind to elaborate on why Stannis is the one who sent it?

(And this is an honest question- no "snark"). :)

[Mithras]

That is interesting that you speculate that Stannis was the one who sent the letter. I don't think I've heard that theory before, so do you mind to elaborate on why Stannis is the one who sent it?

(And this is an honest question- no "snark"). :)

There is a long thread here and some opinions of Sean is here. Here is a thread I started to compare the letters in ADwD.

I am convinced that Ramsay does not make sense as the author. Among the other people Mance is the most likely candidate (because of his access to almost all the information in the letter) but his motives seem problematic. As soon as the new Theon chapter from WoW was released, Stannis theories came forward because Theon uses an almost exact phrase written in the letter (which happened way before the letter was written) and Stannis might be thinking something about faking his death etc. It must be also noted that Stannis knows about the Mance glamor which he does not wear in Winterfell and Theon knows for sure that at least some of Abel's women were spearwives. So, this makes it possible for Stannis to deduce that Mance is doing a rescue operation in Winterfell.

There is also another addition to this theory. Here is the thread in which it is argued that the mail was tampered at the Wall by Bowen and his fellows.

[Alia of the knife]

There is a long thread here and some opinions of Sean is here. Here is a thread I started to compare the letters in ADwD.

I am convinced that Ramsay does not make sense as the author. Among the other people Mance is the most likely candidate (because of his access to almost all the information in the letter) but his motives seem problematic. As soon as the new Theon chapter from WoW was released, Stannis theories came forward because Theon uses an almost exact phrase written in the letter (which happened way before the letter was written) and Stannis might be thinking something about faking his death etc. It must be also noted that Stannis knows about the Mance glamor which he does not wear in Winterfell and Theon knows for sure that at least some of Abel's women were spearwives. So, this makes it possible for Stannis to deduce that Mance is doing a rescue operation in Winterfell.

There is also another addition to this theory. Here is the thread in which it is argued that the mail was tampered at the Wall by Bowen and his fellows.

Oh wow, that is interesting, and thanks for the links.

Of course, I had the reservations regarding Stannis and his honor, but that comment changed my mind.

I've always wondered how Jon would react to the Berantheons since they were also instrumental in the fall of House Stark, (I never understood Neds slavish loyalty to Robert), but to find out later they were responsible for the death of his true father and complicit in the deaths of his true siblings.

[Alia of the knife]

I had put this in another thread when the subject of War of the Roses came up, but realized it might be better here.

I am reading Anya Seton's classic,"Katherine," the story of the two people who were the "nexus" for the War of the Roses, the Black Princes brother, John of Gaunt and his mistress, (and later wife as well as sister-in-law to Chaucer), Katherine Swynford, who would be the mother of the Beaufort line, and found similarities here as well as Faulkners "conflicts of the heart" to events in aSoIaF.

"If no love is, ah God, what feel I so?

And if love, what thing and which is he?

If love be good from whence cometh my woe?

If he be wicked, a wonder thinketh me...."

- Troilus and Criseyde (1366-1367)

John of Gaunt and Plantaganet pride vs.Targaryen Blood of the Dragon.

At the banquet when Katherine first spies the Kings third son, John of Gaunt:

"As he strode down the hall between the kneeling varlets and the bowing courtiers, Katherine felt the impact of ruthless vitality and pride.He is more king than King himself, she thought, staring fascinated."

(She may not have cried like Lyanna, but banquets seem to be the happening place, and colors as well as sigils are ripe with symbology).

The kings mistress, Alice Perrers, observation of Katherines unfashionable beauty:

"She has something else- a great deal else," said Alice Perrers soft laughing voice from the corner," and if you ladies are too stupid to see, the men won't be. Thanks to God that the King is shortsighted, I can fill his entire vision-and shall."

(Katherine had dark auburn hair and grey eyes which was "unfashionable" though beauty she was, at a time when serene blondes, (such as Blanche of Lancaster, the Dukes wife), with high foreheads and finely arched brows were all the rage. Her dark lashes were noteworthy as well).

This "something" is what I always attributed to not only Lyanna, but an adult Arya as well. Obvious beauties, (with Arya growing into such beauty), but something beyond as well. I think with Arya the reader will always have a sense of her beauty through the eyes and reactions of others, but never hers.

John of Gaunt as a child after a traumatic encounter with the jealous son of his beloved wet nurse, Isolda over wanting to hold a royal gerfalcon which John told him he could not, and the son accused him of being a bastard and not true born. After a scuffle, the falcon was taken from him as punishment by his father, the king.

" He scarcely missed the falcon after that., for the poison Pieter had instilled spread slowly through his soul. He ceased to play with other children, but kept to himself and grew silent and morose."

John of Gaunts nephew, Richard II, would go on to legitimize the children born prior to the marriage of the Duke, (and later his Duchess), Katherine with the provision that their offpring would never lay claim to the throne.

Of course that would be a promise not kept as Henry the VII did that very thing.

I just found the parallels so striking as the story seems to have aspects in the beginnings of the conflict as well as the aftermath.