What role does Brandon Stark (a.k.a. Bran) have to play?

[Freefolk4life]

I'm baffled ppl still think Bran is gonna be the champion/avatar/helper of the Others. Why would leaf say bloodraven lingers for the "realms of men." Also Martin has made it clear again and again being a warg will always be looked down upon by normal men which explains why BR was considered evil by the gossip mills.

I actually tend to agree with you about BR. From the Dunk and Egg stories we receive a bit more info about his earlier life and it seems he is slandered and viewed as evil for his abilities, but in the one instance that Dunk comes in direct conversation with him, he seems apt and able and benevolent... but we don't really know.

I don't think the "Great Other" is evil. To me it seems as though he is necessary to oppose the Fire God. Light and Dark need each other...

[Apple the Great]

1. Bran has committed all three abominations mentioned by Varamyr Six Skins (or it seems he has)

2. He wargs and green seers longer and longer, which will slowly make him lose his identity as we hear many characters discuss over and over

3. He is being mentored by Bloodraven, a character often referred to as sorcerous and evil in the tales of dunk and egg... Whether he is "evil" or not is hard to say but I think he seems malicious

4. He is living among the COTF, a race who was once the enemy of men that we know very little about

5. Osha is always wary of the omens Bran reveals to her, saying little about them when she clearly knows more... She is scared of what Bran sees and reluctant to help him fulfill his task

Bran, in my opinion, is the champion of the others. Who else could be the champion of the others? I am not saying Bran is evil, because I don't believe the Others are necessarily "evil". Everything Martin has given us up to this point indicates that there is no good side or bad side, there are just two sides of the coin, the yin and yan that must collide. There is not a single character that does not possess good and bad characteristics (save Ramsay and the Freys who seem unlikely)

Who knows for sure , but seems to me that Bran is walking the path toward darkness.

The COTF fought the first men, for a bit, but then signed a treaty and lived in peace, presumably teaching them about the old gods and green seeing and what not. More importantly, since then, the COTF have helped the First Men fight the Others, which is surely more significant. The COTF made and I think it says shared obsidian 'dragon glass' spears and daggers with the FM and the NW, so I think the COTF aren't aiming to kill all humans. Especially given that Bran thinks that Leaf seemed 'sad' not vengeful.

I don't agree with the acts in the abominations, but who decides they're abominations? Varamyr learned them from some guy who probably learned them from a different guy who... my point is, these 'abominations' are arbitary decisions made up by people who are not authorities on the matter. Someone else has pointed out that non-skin changers don't trust skin changers so I'm not going to add anything more here.

I actually tend to agree with you about BR. From the Dunk and Egg stories we receive a bit more info about his earlier life and it seems he is slandered and viewed as evil for his abilities, but in the one instance that Dunk comes in direct conversation with him, he seems apt and able and benevolent... but we don't really know.

I don't think the "Great Other" is evil. To me it seems as though he is necessary to oppose the Fire God. Light and Dark need each other...

Actions speak louder than words. Look at what BR has done for the realm. Ignore what's said about him. You can to an extent ignore what he says. Look at what BR has done for the realm and ask yourself, has BR done things that damaged the realm? I can't think of anything bad that he did, and I can think of many selfless things that he did for the good of the realm, including going to the NW.

[Freefolk4life]

The COTF fought the first men, for a bit, but then signed a treaty and lived in peace, presumably teaching them about the old gods and green seeing and what not. More importantly, since then, the COTF have helped the First Men fight the Others, which is surely more significant. The COTF made and I think it says shared obsidian 'dragon glass' spears and daggers with the FM and the NW, so I think the COTF aren't aiming to kill all humans. Especially given that Bran thinks that Leaf seemed 'sad' not vengeful.

I don't agree with the acts in the abominations, but who decides they're abominations? Varamyr learned them from some guy who probably learned them from a different guy who... my point is, these 'abominations' are arbitary decisions made up by people who are not authorities on the matter. Someone else has pointed out that non-skin changers don't trust skin changers so I'm not going to add anything more here.

Actions speak louder than words. Look at what BR has done for the realm. Ignore what's said about him. You can to an extent ignore what he says. Look at what BR has done for the realm and ask yourself, has BR done things that damaged the realm? I can't think of anything bad that he did, and I can think of many selfless things that he did for the good of the realm, including going to the NW.

Fair enough, all valid points. Who do you think would be a possible candidate for Champion of the Others then?... if you believe there will be one.

[Black Crow]

1. There is no evidence in the books that the Singers ever fought the Others.

2. If the white walkers are Craster's sons they are not an invading army

[Apple the Great]

Fair enough, all valid points. Who do you think would be a possible candidate for Champion of the Others then?... if you believe there will be one.

I've not really thought about a Champion of the Others. I certainly don't think they care much for or need humans. Perhaps a new Night's King, though I can't think of many candidates for that. Maybe some would say Stannis? Perhaps Benjen Stark?

1. There is no evidence in the books that the Singers ever fought the Others.

2. If the white walkers are Craster's sons they are not an invading army

Fair enough. I can't think why the COTF would give the NW obsidian if they weren't keen on helping humans fight the Others, and Nan says that a hero sought out the COTF in the hope that their magic could defeat the Others - this is speculation - but since we know that the First Men did in fact overcome the Others, when previously they couldn't it suggests that the hero did find the COTF and they did help him. But off the top of my head, and without instantly reading through all the novels, you're right, I don't remember the books explicitly saying that the Singers ever fought the Others.

If the Others are Craster's sons, they are not an invading army. As the Spartans said to Philip II of Macedonia... "if." I guess that if the Others are in fact humans that have been transformed like in the series (given the writers know where GRRM is going with the books it may be right), then some of them will be Craster's sons, others (pun intended) will be other Wildlings. North of the Wall they might not be an invading army therefore, but they are certainly hostile, and they don't seem to want to live with man. South of the Wall they will be invaders. But getting tied up in whether they are invaders or not is a meaningless semantic. The Others are hostile to humans, and from the legends within ASOIAF, it seems as though they will kill every person until they control all of Westeros and perhaps beyond if they can freeze the narrow sea. While GRRM doesn't like the goodies/baddies formula, and good/bad is a point of view, I think few would argue that the Others are going to be the main threat to Westeros and thus the baddies. Only the Freys and Boltons are more obviously baddies.

[Black Crow]

The obsidian business is a red herring. Thanks to Sam we're led to believe that its used for killing white walkers - this is perfectly true but it was originally used by the Singers to kill the First Men.

The 100 pieces is significant because it represents one piece for each of the 100 kingdoms of men and therefore is most likely a symbolic gift arising out of the Pact.

As to the white walkers no-one is denying that they are mad bad and dangerous to know, rather its a question of figuring out who is behind them and why.

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

Is there a closer relationship between the children of the forest and the Others than there might seem to be?
Possibly, possibly. It's a topic that will be developing as the story continues, and so I can't say much more right now.

[mediterraneo]

I'm in with the complex interaction between Children, Starks and other half human beings.
If the Pact was a simple businness, not relevant for the end game which will be a straightforward wrestling match between good and evil, we would have known some more detail on it.
"Good" and "evil" will not be categories useful to define what's exactly happening with the human-children-resto of the others interaction.

And Bran's role will be ethically blurring too, but to me will involve some form of sacrifice and willingly connecting to the whole roots of the things.
Cheers!

[igrewupinKL]

Bran will replace bloodraven. He will help fight against the others through the weirwoods/whatever they do there in that cave with the CotF.

He will not be prince of winterfell/king in the north. He will become the trees, the soil, the animals, the birds (he will fly).

[Ser Elvin of Clymer]

I kind of hope I'm wrong (because I'm not sure how effective re-using this idea would be), I also think GRRM would alter things to make them personal to his story (as he does when appropriating so many other fantasy and Sci Fi tropes), but I think he might steal a plot twist from Babylon 5.

Spoilers for that!

I think Bran is either able to reach through the Weirwood network into the past and can influence/speak to the original Bran the Builder, or is able to Warg into him to create the Wall or tell him to create it (possibly other things like Dragonstone as well.)

This is similar to Vaelynn's arc in B5 (and there is a Maester Vaelynn mentioned in AFfC prologue) which involves time travel, and a character becoming a legend we have been aware of since book 1.

I'm intentionally trying to be a little vague (so as not to spoil), Vaelynn is probably spelled differently in B5, and this was probably one of the best surprises I have ever been tricked by outside of ASoIaF's own twists.

[Wildling Queen]

I think I'm a little confused now. I've always believed that the Others were a different species, not at all human, while wights are dead humans reanimated by the magic of the Others. And since wights seem hell-bent on killing humans, that would make them enemies of man. Craster's sons, I thought, were being turned into wights. Am I wrong?

[Kyll.Ing.]

^Or just babies are tasty enough that the Others decide to keep away from Craster and his wives to secure a steady supply. Hard to tell, since we haven't actually been told anything substantial about them.

I wonder if the Others really are all they have been jacked up to be? Perhaps those we see attacking the Fist are just a few remaining stragglers, as depleted as the Night's Watch, trying to cause some mischief in memory of the glory days 8000 years ago. Perhaps they too suffer from internal conflicts, with various factions or individuals trying to seize power. Maybe even, in their legends, the White Walkers of old built the Wall to keep the southrons and their scary frozen fire weapons away. After all, the Night's Watch would be unlikely to settle further north than the convenient, big, sturdy-looking barrier they can hide behind.

There are tons of fantasy books out there with a mystical faction like the Others, a collective group of powerful, well-organized monsters acting as a single entity, "evil" being their only character trait. Look at the Ringwraiths in LOTR, for instance. They are not individuals, but members of a "race" who seem to be perfectly coordinated with each other at all times, acting in pursuit of the same goal, and you can hardly imagine them in a setting where they are not trying to destroy the world. It would totally be within the spirit of Martin to deconstruct this trope, showing that the Others have to deal with logistics and politics too, and that they "live" for other things than conquering the world.

[Black Crow]

I think I'm a little confused now. I've always believed that the Others were a different species, not at all human, while wights are dead humans reanimated by the magic of the Others. And since wights seem hell-bent on killing humans, that would make them enemies of man. Craster's sons, I thought, were being turned into wights. Am I wrong?

Its actually quite simple [!]

The white walkers are, according to Stannis "demons made of ice and snow and cold", we've also seen in the books andhad confirmed in the show that they are actually Craster's sons. Some of us in Heresy reckon them to be in effect golems created out of ice and snow and cold and animated with the spirits of Craster's sons.

Whatever the process involved Craster's sons are white walkers not wights

They are not, and back in the day, were not an invading army.

For that they need to raise the dead as wights.

[Wildling Queen]

Okay, but the White Walkers weren't originally Craster's sons. So there has to be something more to them, don't you think?

[Black Crow]

Crasters sons are just the present generation certainly, but the point is that they are human changelings, not a separate race.

Why not look into heresy.

[Wildling Queen]

Crasters sons are just the present generation certainly, but the point is that they are human changelings, not a separate race.

Why not look into heresy.

Sigh. Okay, I'll try read the heresy threads again, although the people who post there are very smart and a lot of times their analyzing goes waaaay over my head.

[Black Crow]

Go to the OP and follow the link to Heresy 100

[Vogarro's Hand]

Dany is insane, that's why Bran would be good for her, since he'd keep her grounded and in touch with her humanity. It's a fool's dream though, I know.

Isn't BR hooked up to the tree like it's some sort of life support machine? Which Bran shouldn't really need?

Would be fun seeing that, a warg and a greenseer trying to keep a dragon in touch with her humanity.

[The Others Side]

bran is the westerosi jesus

[Reek Havoc]

Bran's purpose is to play the informer. He tells the other characters things that they need to know that they couldn't possibly have knowledge of otherwise. That, and bring some of the mystical things to light for reader that other characters would have no way of knowing anything about.

[Arlan of Pennytree]

Unfortunately, we won't see that happen most likely, but his ability to warg dragons-probable-him becoming Lord of Winterfell-likely. His 'sight' will be crucial.

If Jon Snow (or Jon Targaryen) claims the Iron Throne (which is his by right), the decree that Rob had made naming him his heir to the crown could be voided/turned down by Jon, putting Bran back as rightful king in the north. . .Or would it be Sansa?