The rights of Tyrion

[Jô Maltese]

Varys said it all: Power is a shadow on a wall - Power resides where men believe it resides. When Tyrion comes back to Westeros riding Viserion, his Power image will rise dramatically. Add a historical victory (against the Others?) and huge wealth (the Lannister's inheritance and therefore the Iron Bank's trust) and there you have your legitimate king...

[SerArthurHeath]

Maegor was apparently killed by the throne but was so unpleasant that he could have been stabbed to death for other reasons. But true, the brute power approach did fail

[the conquoring bastard25]

A rebellion that he crushed and subdued. It's not like he was kicked off his throne. It's not every other King in England hadn't faced rebellion in the passed hundred years.

So come on, Next.

A powerful enough man could take the power of the church.

Think about it this way, how much do you know about Henry II of England and Thomas Becket?

Henry was starting question how much power the church had and the fact that a large portion of his subjects owed their allegiance to the crown only half of the time.

Now look at this, Aegon is walking into a political shit storm because of Cersi. The faith is armed and dangerous, just like in Henry's time. The faith reminds me of the Knights of Templar, and they did get as far as England. So Aegon a Prince that knows the seven's doctrine inside and out similar to Henry VIII whom was suppose to go to the clergy and become a priest. You know that right. The second son generally entered into the service of the church. This early training was just a beginning to Henry shaping the bible and the Pope/the Christian faith to it's knees.

A king was questioning the Pope, he dared to defy the Pope and he won!! Something that kings in England had been trying to do since William the Conquer landed in England.

Aegon maybe placed in a position to question the fact that some of his servants were only his servants half the time. That it's the people not the faith that make a king.

The High Septon is already walking on rotten ice as I see him becoming a Thomas Becket in the books. Someone that 's going to be sacrificed for his faith, for daring to befriend and be raised high by a king. That was really Thomas's biggest crime, that and plotting with his wife against him.

[the conquoring bastard25]

A rebellion that he crushed and subdued. It's not like he was kicked off his throne. It's not every other King in England hadn't faced rebellion in the passed hundred years.

So come on, Next.

A powerful enough man could take the power of the church.

Think about it this way, how much do you know about Henry II of England and Thomas Becket?

Henry was starting question how much power the church had and the fact that a large portion of his subjects owed their allegiance to the crown only half of the time.

Now look at this, Aegon is walking into a political shit storm because of Cersi. The faith is armed and dangerous, just like in Henry's time. The faith reminds me of the Knights of Templar, and they did get as far as England. So Aegon a Prince that knows the seven's doctrine inside and out similar to Henry VIII whom was suppose to go to the clergy and become a priest. You know that right. The second son generally entered into the service of the church. This early training was just a beginning to Henry shaping the bible and the Pope/the Christian faith to it's knees.

A king was questioning the Pope, he dared to defy the Pope and he won!! Something that kings in England had been trying to do since William the Conquer landed in England.

Aegon maybe placed in a position to question the fact that some of his servants were only his servants half the time. That it's the people not the faith that make a king.

The High Septon is already walking on rotten ice as I see him becoming a Thomas Becket in the books. Someone that 's going to be sacrificed for his faith, for daring to befriend and be raised high by a king. That was really Thomas's biggest crime, that and plotting with his wife against him.

[Wmarshal]

A rebellion that he crushed and subdued. It's not like he was kicked off his throne. It's not every other King in England hadn't faced rebellion in the passed hundred years.

So come on, Next.

A powerful enough man could take the power of the church.

Think about it this way, how much do you know about Henry II of England and Thomas Becket?

Henry was starting question how much power the church had and the fact that a large portion of his subjects owed their allegiance to the crown only half of the time.

Now look at this, Aegon is walking into a political shit storm because of Cersi. The faith is armed and dangerous, just like in Henry's time. The faith reminds me of the Knights of Templar, and they did get as far as England. So Aegon a Prince that knows the seven's doctrine inside and out similar to Henry VIII whom was suppose to go to the clergy and become a priest. You know that right. The second son generally entered into the service of the church. This early training was just a beginning to Henry shaping the bible and the Pope/the Christian faith to it's knees.

A king was questioning the Pope, he dared to defy the Pope and he won!! Something that kings in England had been trying to do since William the Conquer landed in England.

Aegon maybe placed in a position to question the fact that some of his servants were only his servants half the time. That it's the people not the faith that make a king.

The High Septon is already walking on rotten ice as I see him becoming a Thomas Becket in the books. Someone that 's going to be sacrificed for his faith, for daring to befriend and be raised high by a king. That was really Thomas's biggest crime, that and plotting with his wife against him.

Thomas Becket was made a martyr, in fact his death only strengthen the religious,

As to Henry VIII yeah he crushed his. Know why? Because unlike the kings of the Iron Throne the Pope was far away, not his neighbor.HS can rally all of the south to his side, no king can battle a king with his power, that is why we have a decade long faith revolt. You Awgon or Dany can gut a man and make hima martyr and it ends there? That is the farthest from the truth.

[complexphoenix]

Thomas Becket was made a martyr, in fact his death only strengthen the religious,

As to Henry VIII yeah he crushed his. Know why? Because unlike the kings of the Iron Throne the Pope was far away, not his neighbor.HS can rally all of the south to his side, no king can battle a king with his power, that is why we have a decade long faith revolt. You Awgon or Dany can gut a man and make hima martyr and it ends there? That is the farthest from the truth.

No, the HS cannot rally all the South to his side, only a portion of it. There are plenty of lords who will take the king's side over that of the Faith, either because they aren't particularly pious, because they preferred it when the Faith wasn't armed, or because they don't think the Faith should be challenging the power of the king.

Note that although Maegor was never able to subdue the Faith, the Faith never subdued him either. In the end Jaehaerys resolved the conflict with a compromise that was more advantageous to the Crown than to the Faith - the Faith had to give up its swords and look the other way while the Targaryens practiced incest, and all the Crown had to do was guarantee holy men the full protection of the laws. So I'd say the Crown can be reasonably said to have won the Faith Militant Rebellion even if it wasn't a blowout victory.

[Wmarshal]

No, the HS cannot rally all the South to his side, only a portion of it. There are plenty of lords who will take the king's side over that of the Faith, either because they aren't particularly pious, because they preferred it when the Faith wasn't armed, or because they don't think the Faith should be challenging the power of the king.

Note that although Maegor was never able to subdue the Faith, the Faith never subdued him either. In the end Jaehaerys resolved the conflict with a compromise that was more advantageous to the Crown than to the Faith - the Faith had to give up its swords and look the other way while the Targaryens practiced incest, and all the Crown had to do was guarantee holy men the full protection of the laws. So I'd say the Crown can be reasonably said to have won the Faith Militant Rebellion even if it wasn't a blowout victory.

You seem to forget they had ask them to stop, because in the end Jaeherys could never crush them.

[complexphoenix]

You seem to forget they had ask them to stop, because in the end Jaeherys could never crush them.

I said: Jaehaerys still got the better end of the bargain in the end, getting peace on eminently favorable terms. The Faith remained, but it was disarmed and defanged. High Septons from that time on never dared to challenge the Iron Throne and served to put a veneer of divine legitimacy on whatever the king decided to do for his own reasons, until the High Sparrow had the good fortune to come along when the realm was ruled by Cersei the Moron. The Faith Militant is back now, but it's not yet as numerous or well-established as it was in days of old.

The Faith will surely fight with everything it's got against a threat to its existence, but Tyrion is not that threat. His installment as Lord of Casterly Rock does have the moral and legal trouble of him being a kinslayer, but although Tyrion is not pious, neither is he about to embark on a crusade to destroy the Faith. The Faith has lived with impious lords and dubious legal claims to various lands before without too much trouble. As long as Tyrion lets them be, they can always choose to look the other way from the whole kinslaying thing on the grounds that his claim is legitimate by the law of male-preference primogeniture. He was convicted of killing Joffrey in a trial by combat, and he was sentenced to death by Tommen's regent; if the new king or queen grants him a pardon, is that anything for the Faith to get upset about? I really don't see why it's worth it for them to bother. Some of the more fanatical would argue it as a matter of principle, but the High Sparrow, though pious, is also much too pragmatic to raise a stink with someone who has dragons over something that doesn't pose a serious threat to the Faith.

[Wmarshal]

I said: Jaehaerys still got the better end of the bargain in the end, getting peace on eminently favorable terms. The Faith remained, but it was disarmed and defanged. High Septons from that time on never dared to challenge the Iron Throne and served to put a veneer of divine legitimacy on whatever the king decided to do for his own reasons, until the High Sparrow had the good fortune to come along when the realm was ruled by Cersei the Moron. The Faith Militant is back now, but it's not yet as numerous or well-established as it was in days of old.

The Faith will surely fight with everything it's got against a threat to its existence, but Tyrion is not that threat. His installment as Lord of Casterly Rock does have the moral and legal trouble of him being a kinslayer, but although Tyrion is not pious, neither is he about to embark on a crusade to destroy the Faith. The Faith has lived with impious lords and dubious legal claims to various lands before without too much trouble. As long as Tyrion lets them be, they can always choose to look the other way from the whole kinslaying thing on the grounds that his claim is legitimate by the law of male-preference primogeniture. He was convicted of killing Joffrey in a trial by combat, and he was sentenced to death by Tommen's regent; if the new king or queen grants him a pardon, is that anything for the Faith to get upset about? I really don't see why it's worth it for them to bother. Some of the more fanatical would argue it as a matter of principle, but the High Sparrow, though pious, is also much too pragmatic to raise a stink with someone who has dragons over something that doesn't pose a serious threat to the Faith.

Then simple ask him, that was the main point of my argument, at end of day he is the only one that can remove his taint. Gutting HS isn't going to help them.

[complexphoenix]

Then simple ask him, that was the main point of my argument, at end of day he is the only one that can remove his taint. Gutting HS isn't going to help them.

Removing the current High Septon and replacing him with their own puppet HS would leave some people disaffected, but most would fall in behind the new HS.

Another thing I just remembered: when Stannis converts to the Lord of Light and allows Melisandre to burn the sept of Dragonstone, thus declaring himself an enemy of the Faith, he loses exactly one of his bannermen, the ostentatiously pious Guncer Sunglass. The rest of them don't care much and stay with him. Pretty much everybody in the South is nominally affiliated with the Seven, but only a few are pious enough to defy the king for the sake of the Faith.

If the theory that you've been espousing in this thread were correct, Stannis' burning of the sept should have completely destroyed his cause, right then and right there. It didn't. From that I conclude that you are giving the Faith way too much credit.

[Michael Herman]

Couldn't he just blame Varys for his father's death? What evidence is there after all? They know Varys helped him escape, Varys disappeared at the same time as Tyrion, plus he killed Kevan in the same way.

If Tyrion recognises that Varys killed Kevan he can prove that he was not responisble and due to the similarity of the murders he could say that Varys killed Tywin too, then he can blame LF for Joffrey's death and claim CR.

[Wmarshal]

Removing the current High Septon and replacing him with their own puppet HS would leave some people disaffected, but most would fall in behind the new HS.

Another thing I just remembered: when Stannis converts to the Lord of Light and allows Melisandre to burn the sept of Dragonstone, thus declaring himself an enemy of the Faith, he loses exactly one of his bannermen, the ostentatiously pious Guncer Sunglass. The rest of them don't care much and stay with him. Pretty much everybody in the South is nominally affiliated with the Seven, but only a few are pious enough to defy the king for the sake of the Faith.

If the theory that you've been espousing in this thread were correct, Stannis' burning of the sept should have completely destroyed his cause, right then and right there. It didn't. From that I conclude that you are giving the Faith way too much credit.

The sparrows hold control, HS dies, one them replace him.

You seem so kin to forget all religious men serving Stannis are plotting to murder Melisandre because they believe she is what keeps Stannis from the seven. The Stan as you forget are deep in Rh'llor.

What points have I made that involved all men abandoning kings? I have brought this whole time that killing an HS or taking his power when you can simple ask ask him to free Tyrion for something you easily give to some else that Tyrion doesn't is going to start a revolt. Now what about the Stan proves me wrong?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Couldn't he just blame Varys for his father's death? What evidence is there after all? They know Varys helped him escape, Varys disappeared at the same time as Tyrion, plus he killed Kevan in the same way.

If Tyrion recognises that Varys killed Kevan he can prove that he was not responisble and due to the similarity of the murders he could say that Varys killed Tywin too, then he can blame LF for Joffrey's death and claim CR.

He could but I think Tyrion takes pride in having killed Tywin and wouldn't ever let someone else take credit.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Well, it's murder, so yes

Tyrion killing Tywin is absolutely murder, but I was wondering about the general case.

Also, is there a self-defense option under Westerosi law?

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

Yeah, he has no right. Cersei is a woman and Jaime is a KG. By rights it should've gone to Kevan, but now that Kevan's dead, as are Tywin's other brothers, the heir could be Lancel, but he's the lord of Darry and I don't see him accepting the position, so... it's gotta' be Martyn. Still, if Tyrion wins Dany over and takes over Westeros with her, then he can be legitimized again, so it's more boasting about how he's going to be the heir, and not that he actually IS the heir.

[Jasta11]

There are courts in Westeros, and the most expected and universal form of law, the trial by combat, took place. He lost, by all laws from Dorne to the Wall, is no lord, but a dead man.

And Jaime was a Kingslayer most foul everywhere from Dorne to the Wall too. Didn't even need a trial to sort that one out. Yet Robert granted him a pardon and while the stigma never left Jaime (like it will never leave Tyrion), if the current King/Queen says Tyrion is Lord and can impose it, he will be. Whenever he will last long or be effective is another debate altogether, but the question of your claim's rightness is of secondary importance to how much power you can get behind said claim. Just ask Renly.

[Wmarshal]

Being called a kingslayer and losing a trial by combat is not the same. Tyrion lost his trial and as such law is suppose to die. Jaime was never arrested or faced trial.

[Jasta11]

Being called a kingslayer and losing a trial by combat is not the same. Tyrion lost his trial and as such law is suppose to die. Jaime was never arrested or faced trial.

Because he doesn't need to have a trial in the first place. He's standing over Aerys's dead body with a bloody sword and never for a second denies he did the deal. A trial is superfluous at that point. By ''westerosi law'', he's a kingslayer and oathbreaker should be put to death or at the very least exiled to the Wall. But because Robert is now in charge and couldn't care less about Aerys snuffing it if he tried, Jaime is pardoned and the legal implications of his act are tossed into the wind.

Same thing will happen if, say, Tyrion supports Dany and Dany wins the IT. Oh dear, the Imp killed the usurper Joffrey and the betrayer/murderer of her family Tywin? Why should she care again?

Laws in Westeros are whatever works at the time for the people in power, except for exceptionally honorable people like Ned, and even then. Martin spends the entire series hammering that in our skulls. To say that Tyrion now objectively has no possible claim seems a bit silly in light of that. He's a son of Tywin, and will always be able to press his claim if he has enough force behind it.

[FalseSpring]

Why would tyrion even want to go back? He could just become a rich illyrio of sorts using his cleverness and retire from politics. He might be interested in dragons but something tells me he'd rather read about them than ride them.

[Jasta11]

Why would tyrion even want to go back? He could just become a rich illyrio of sorts using his cleverness and retire from politics. He might be interested in dragons but something tells me he'd rather read about them than ride them.

Well, he's already making deals to take the Rock back, and his monologues do show a desire for it. Whenever he will seriously press his claim remain to be seen, but he's definitely interested.