Boarsbane Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Renly does not know that the older brother comes first in the sucession. Yes he does. Does Renly realize now that his brother the king is dead, Stannis as the older brother makes decisions for his family? Yes he does. Does Renly go against that arrangement? Yes He does. At that point Does Renly PUT HIS LIFE AND OTHERS THAT FOLLOW HIM AT RISK? hE SURE DOES. Renly is the head of his own household, Stannis has no authority over him. And Renly isn't rebelling on the basis of Robert's kids being bastards so the actual line of succession is irrelevant, to Renly he and Stannis are both rebels only Stannis cooked up an excuse and Renly has a bigger army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 What facts does he know?Stannis doesn't even know. He strongly suspects. Because we are given a unique narrative view, we know Stannis' suspicions are real, but he doesn't. His suspicions conform to his desires in a way which would seem ridiculously convenient to an outsider, or court of law, or w/e.Or, to put it another way...Baratheons are famed for their thick dark hair and joy of life.Robert had thick dark hair and a joy of life. The laughing storm, likewise. Renly, too.....BUT WAIT A MINUTE...Now, imagine that argument presented by Renly a year after Stannis is crowned. You gonna buy it? Your way off, I could care less about the bastards. Renly is under the control of Stannis, Stannis is the older brother. Stannis makes decisions for the Baratheons and Renly is a Baratheon. Now If Renly wants to go around Stannis authority that is folly. Stannis had a right to kill Renly Stannis is a kinslayer and rightfully so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Renly is the head of his own household, Stannis has no authority over him. And Renly isn't rebelling on the basis of Robert's kids being bastards so the actual line of succession is irrelevant, to Renly he and Stannis are both rebels only Stannis cooked up an excuse and Renly has a bigger army. It makes sense, Renly I guess would assume others have the same disregard for law and custom in the face of their selfish desires as he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Renly is the head of his own household, Stannis has no authority over him. And Renly isn't rebelling on the basis of Robert's kids being bastards so the actual line of succession is irrelevant, to Renly he and Stannis are both rebels only Stannis cooked up an excuse and Renly has a bigger army. Renly is not the head of his own household, it does not work that way. Stannis is the leader and Renly, should have yielded to his authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 It makes sense, Renly I guess would assume others have the same disregard for law and custom in the face of their selfish desires as he does. And he would be right. Stannis has no proof of the incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 And he would be right. Stannis has no proof of the incest. Of course he wouldn't be, Stannis never sought to usurp his older brother as Renly did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Renly is not the head of his own household, it does not work that way. Stannis is the leader and Renly, should have yielded to his authority. He clearly is, he is Lord of Storm's End, the ancestral seat of House Baratheon. If anything Renly is the head of House Baratheon, Robert giving him Storm's End basically says that. Stannis even changes his sigil, while Renly keeps the Baratheon sigil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 And he would be right. Stannis has no proof of the incest. Even w/out proof of the incest Stannis is the leader and Renly, ignored his authority. If Stannis wants to go in a certain direction Renly should have SWALLOWED (HA, HA) his pride and followed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Egg was crowned because Aemon refused the throne, and the Grand Council had the power to nominate him, it was a special situation. Besides, there was no other heir besides one feeble-minded daughter of Aerion, who was behind Egg in the line of succession anyway. Ned didn't wanted to kill all the children because there was no need: he was going to reveal without a doubt that they were bastards. And he was against killing Dany for moral and ethical reasons, not political ones. Why do you think Tywin killed Rhaegar's children and Robert tried to kill Aerys'? Because as long as they are alive, they were a threat, despite the fact the entire dynasty was overthrown. And they were just children, Stannis a grown man and one of the most respected commanders in the 7 Kingdoms, known for his strength and determination, from a dynasty that has not been overthrown. Again, do you actually believe that Renly and the Tyrells, specially the latter, would just let Stannis alive and free? Seriously? Because if you do, there's a bridge I'd like to sell you.Firstly, do you see how many exceptions/special cases there are just here, to this rule. A rule that often doesn't apply is not a rule, really. It's a generalization. That's how feudal succession works. There are various arguments presented, and unless there is a strong reason not to, people often agree to either abide by the will of the former ruler or follow a line of succession simply because it curtails some of the warring some of the time.Secondly, Robert only tried to kill Viserys/Dany after she was pregnant. Again, the reality of power vs. the illusion. Before that happened Robert's reign went untroubled by Viserys/Dany, and had Dany not found dragons, would remain that way.Stannis was also known for being incredibly unpopular and was starting to be known for religious persecution. But that's all beside the point. A rule whose conditions are established post-fact is not a rule. And, yes, actually. I believe Renly would have been perfectly fine with Stannis living. I think his vision was essentially himself replacing Robert in Robert's situation, but doing a better job of it. Stannis as MoS and smouldering on Dragonstone would have been part of the decor.The Tyrells, less so, I agree, but that's a separate argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Of course he wouldn't be, Stannis never sought to usurp his older brother as Renly did. Just his nephew with no proof. Remember we know for sure Robert's kids are bastards but Stannis does not, and his idea of proof is one of Robert's bastards having black hair and blue eyes, he doesn't even have this kid either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Even w/out proof of the incest Stannis is the leader and Renly, ignored his authority. If Stannis wants to go in a certain direction Renly should have SWALLOWED (HA, HA) his pride and followed. Wow now you are making jokes about Renly's sexuality? I think I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Your way off, I could care less about the bastards. Renly is under the control of Stannis, Stannis is the older brother. Stannis makes decisions for the Baratheons and Renly is a Baratheon. Now If Renly wants to go around Stannis authority that is folly. Stannis had a right to kill Renly Stannis is a kinslayer and rightfully so.No, wrong. Renly is the head of his own house. Has his own Seat, his own sigil, appoints his own council, etc. And if you believe fully in the principle you are espousing, then Joff was head of House Baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 And, yes, actually. I believe Renly would have been perfectly fine with Stannis living. I think his vision was essentially himself replacing Robert in Robert's situation, but doing a better job of it. Stannis as MoS and smouldering on Dragonstone would have been part of the decor. Hell, the fact that he thinks that Stannis is about to join him before Stannis sneak attacks Storm's End shows he expected them to work together, with Stannis paying him respect as his king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 It makes sense, Renly I guess would assume others have the same disregard for law and custom in the face of their selfish desires as he does.So who did law and custom say was Stannis' king, Aerys or Robert? And failing Aerys, Targs or Robert?What did law and custom suggest was Stannis' duty when he thought he found out about treason within Robert's House? Tell Robert, and be damned what the consequences to himself would be, or sulk off to DS and not say a word after JA dies until he uses it for his own claim?In case you aren't paying attention Stannis and Renly both tend to make decisions which further their own interests. They just use different body language and rhetoric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 He clearly is, he is Lord of Storm's End, the ancestral seat of House Baratheon. If anything Renly is the head of House Baratheon, Robert giving him Storm's End basically says that. Stannis even changes his sigil, while Renly keeps the Baratheon sigil. You are so wrong not one place in heraldry does it fall to Renly to make decisions for house baratheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 We have Stannis' POV and it makes certain he believes full well what we know to be truth, there is no burden of proof on belief, he doesn't have to prove he is the king to believe he is the king or to be right that he is the king. Stannis believes he is the king by law, he is correct, Renly knows he is not the king by law, he just doesn't care he is a usurper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 Wow now you are making jokes about Renly's sexuality? I think I'm done. Another Reason why Renly would not be leading anyone anywhere. Half the realm knows and makes complete fun of the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 No, wrong. Renly is the head of his own house. Has his own Seat, his own sigil, appoints his own council, etc.And if you believe fully in the principle you are espousing, then Joff was head of House Baratheon. Wrong! Stannis makes the decisions and Renly should listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 We have Stannis' POV and it makes certain he believes full well what we know to be truth, there is no burden of proof on belief, he doesn't have to prove he is the king to believe he is the king or to be right that he is the king. Stannis believes he is the king by law, he is correct, Renly knows he is not the king by law, he just doesn't care he is a usurper.What? Do you hear what you're saying. You are CONCURRENTLY advocating a strict adherence to a rigidly defined rule of succession AND saying proof and law are meaningless if someone really really believes he's right.Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 We have Stannis' POV and it makes certain he believes full well what we know to be truth, there is no burden of proof on belief, he doesn't have to prove he is the king to believe he is the king or to be right that he is the king. Stannis believes he is the king by law, he is correct, Renly knows he is not the king by law, he just doesn't care he is a usurper. A supposedly just man like Stannis should have some proof if he plans on usurping his nephew. No one is going to believe his letter, it looks like a self serving lie. Honestly if I didn't know for fact Joff, Tommen, and Myrcella were bastards from Jaime and Cersei's POV I wouldn't believe Stannis either with his flimsy evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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