Heresy 115

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 115, yet another chapter in the fast moving thread that takes a sideways look what’s really going in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Heresy started off a very long time ago as The Wall the Watch and a Heresy, questioning the widely-held assumptions that the Wall and the Watch were created to keep the Others at bay - and that its all going to finish up with Jon Snow being identified as the lost Targaryen heir and Azor Ahai rolled into one and riding a fire-breathing dragon to victory over the icy hordes intent on destroying all life. We still have our doubts. In general terms the thread has expanded to encompass the whole business of Ice and Fire [as distinct from the Game of Thrones], striving to understand the conflict as a whole.

Nevertheless we still concentrate on the Wall and what lies beyond, and the Stark connection to Winter. We can also claim with a fair degree of truth to know more than anybody else about the Others/white walkers and warging/skinchanging.

Beyond that there is no such thing as a heretic view on a particular topic, rather heresy is about questioning common assumptions and discussing the various possible outcomes, based either on clues in the text itself, or in identifying GRRM’s own sources and inspirations, ranging from Celtic and Norse mythology all the way through to Narnia. Nor is it a matter of agreeing a particular viewpoint and then defending it against all comers, and in fact the fiercest critics of some of the ideas discussed on these pages are our fellow heretics.

At first sight, stepping into our world might at first appear confusing, but what we are really engaged in is an exercise in chaos theory. While most threads concentrate on a particular issue or theory, we range pretty widely and more or less in free-fall, to try and reach an understanding of what may be happening through the resulting collision of ideas.

In the run-up to HERESY 100 Mace Cooterian very kindly organised a Centennial Seven project, looking at seven major topics in Heresy, featuring a specially commissioned introductory essay followed by a whole thread concentrating on that one topic. A link to Heresy 100 follows, in which will be found updated essays on the Seven, with a bonus essay on the Crows: http://asoiaf.wester...138-heresy-100/. Links are also provided at the end of each essay to the relevant discussions, and for those made of sterner stuff we also have a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy. Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy. It has been running for over two years now but we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that you observe the house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[comicwolf]

And to start off 115 I'm reposting my last-ish post from 114!

Missed most of the last Heresy, and most of this one, but a video that I'd missed cropped up and I wondered what other interpretations would be. It's from Sky Atlantic's post-show "Thronecast" and it's an interview with Ran.

From my reading it's pretty clear that from his insider position, D&D do know the major beats, character arcs, and the ending, which would seem to point to, as I, Black Crow, and others have argued, the show being a valid source for information for Heresies.

http://youtu.be/ORF5O0hXgoo

ETA: Relevant material begins around 2:04

[Urrax2]

And to start off 115 I'm reposting my last-ish post from 114!

Missed most of the last Heresy, and most of this one, but a video that I'd missed cropped up and I wondered what other interpretations would be. It's from Sky Atlantic's post-show "Thronecast" and it's an interview with Ran.

From my reading it's pretty clear that from his insider position, D&D do know the major beats, character arcs, and the ending, which would seem to point to, as I, Black Crow, and others have argued, the show being a valid source for information for Heresies.

http://youtu.be/ORF5O0hXgoo

ETA: Relevant material begins around 2:04

Says he doesn't know how it ends, just has his own pretty good guess. And Linda would be the same. That says to me that they don't know the answer to the central mystery, who/what are the Others.

[JNR]

From my reading it's pretty clear that from his insider position, D&D do know the major beats, character arcs, and the ending, which would seem to point to, as I, Black Crow, and others have argued, the show being a valid source for information for Heresies.

Which means D&D can't be curious about anything in the books, since they could pick up the phone and ask GRRM immediately.

But instead, Benioff admits they have always been curious about this particular topic.

I'd be very very much surpirsed. The real nature of the Others is the Big Reveal. It is going to be a huge surprise and no way GRRM will let it slip.

Quite agreed.

[JNR]

Says he doesn't know how it ends, just has his own pretty good guess. And Linda would be the same. That says to me that they don't know the answer to the central mystery, who/what are the Others.

Furthermore, Ran's opinions are not always very widely held ones. For instance, his opinion that Jon and Dany may fall in love, and that this is what is meant by the vision of the blue flower in the ice wall.

[avernite]

You miss the point I'm trying to make. The point is that the Skinchanger has a choice, the animals they have don't.Therefore, with that in mind a Warg is nothing special or unique and that is contrary to what BR told Bran.

Seeing that any skinchanger can become one.Weigh what we are told about what a Warg is, they share "with" a wolf, which I think means Direwolves because they seem to be the only ones in additon to the Crows that have and exercised that choice. Discount the word"Warg" and look at the definition who fits that?

Ah, well, in that case I may agree - but it makes the word warg, IMO, a bad one since it's used for lots of skinchangers, while the only evidence of this special bond seems to be with the Stark kids.

[Black Crow]

But then again what we've seen isn't actually a reveal as such. Its just what's in the books, for those who care to read them. Knowing that they are Craster's sons doesn't actually advance the understanding of the mystery. OK they were Craster's sons, but so what? Especially as he's dead.

The big reveal, so far not even hinted at in any way, is the likely Stark connection, not Craster.

[comicwolf]

Says he doesn't know how it ends, just has his own pretty good guess. And Linda would be the same. That says to me that they don't know the answer to the central mystery, who/what are the Others.

Who/what the Others are would, to me, be a major beat in the story. And he distinguishes between himself and the TV producers/writers, whom he says are in on those things.

[Urrax2]

The only source of info I can think of that says they are Craster's sons is the yarns of Craster's daughters/wives. We don't know what was happening to the baby in the show. My personal belief is that we were meant to think, erroneously, that it was becoming an Other, so that the Great Reveal will come as an even greater surprise.

And now I'll get off the subject!

[redriver]

But then again what we've seen isn't actually a reveal as such. Its just what's in the books, for those who care to read them. Knowing that they are Craster's sons doesn't actually advance the understanding of the mystery. OK they were Craster's sons, but so what? Especially as he's dead.

The big reveal, so far not even hinted at in any way, is the likely Stark connection, not Craster.

The big reveal so far is that humans,albeit babies as yet,can be transformed into Others.This seemed to be a major stumbling block for some,despite the major book clues that this was the case.But yes,the ultimate questions about the Others have not been answered yet.

[comicwolf]

Furthermore, Ran's opinions are not always very widely held ones. For instance, his opinion that Jon and Dany may fall in love, and that this is what is meant by the vision of the blue flower in the ice wall.

But I'm not talking about HIS opinions, but about his reveal that the TV producers and writers know the end path, character arcs, major story beats. They're working off the same hymn sheet as GRRM. Ran's theories have nothing to do with what I was trying to say.

[comicwolf]

Which means D&D can't be curious about anything in the books, since they could pick up the phone and ask GRRM immediately.

But instead, Benioff admits they have always been curious about this particular topic.

Quite agreed.

No, they could be curious about many things in the books. Minor details are not plotted ahead of time, as stated. But they are aware of major points. The Night's King having a bony crown is a detail. The Night's King still being around and turning Craster's boys into WWs is an important plot point.

[comicwolf]

The big reveal so far is that humans,albeit babies as yet,can be transformed into Others.This seemed to be a major stumbling block for some,despite the major book clues that this was the case.But yes,the ultimate questions about the Others have not been answered yet.

Transformed into Walkers... ;)

[Lord Ravenstark]

But then again what we've seen isn't actually a reveal as such. Its just what's in the books, for those who care to read them. Knowing that they are Craster's sons doesn't actually advance the understanding of the mystery. OK they were Craster's sons, but so what? Especially as he's dead.

The big reveal, so far not even hinted at in any way, is the likely Stark connection, not Craster.

"How does one transform a newborn into a adult-looking, able to speak, walk, eloquent sword mastery, etc?"

It'd only raise more mysteries.

[redriver]

Transformed into Walkers... ;)

I know some on here seem to imagine there's a difference between White Walkers and the Others,but I've yet to be convinced of any difference whatsoever.

The show does indicate some sort of hierarchical pecking order but not enough to show a WW/Other difference.

[redriver]

"How does one transform a newborn into a adult-looking, able to speak, walk, eloquent sword mastery, etc?"

It'd only raise more mysteries.

If,as it seems,Martin is drawing heavily on Sidhe lore,then you need to know that time is different in the Otherlands-300 years there can be a day in human terms.

[comicwolf]

I know some on here seem to imagine there's a difference between White Walkers and the Others,but I've yet to be convinced of any difference whatsoever.

The show does indicate some sort of hierarchical pecking order but not enough to show a WW/Other difference.

And if you have yet to be convinced then you have yet to be convinced. You may never be convinced. You may be half convinced and led on to a completely tangential path that does or doesn't convince others. And all of these things are not just ok, but fantastic, fun, thought-provoking, and truly madly deeply Heretical!

[Black Crow]

I know some on here seem to imagine there's a difference between White Walkers and the Others,but I've yet to be convinced of any difference whatsoever.

The show does indicate some sort of hierarchical pecking order but not enough to show a WW/Other difference.

Again its important to appreciate the constraints of the show. GRRM refers to them indiscriminately while the show avoids confusing the groundlings by sticking with white walkers, likewise because the Nights Watch are referred to as crows, the black birdies are all ravens

[comicwolf]

"How does one transform a newborn into a adult-looking, able to speak, walk, eloquent sword mastery, etc?"

It'd only raise more mysteries.

Did I miss something? Was it suggested that the babies are instantly turned into fully-grown WWs?

[redriver]

And if you have yet to be convinced then you have yet to be convinced. You may never be convinced. You may be half convinced and led on to a completely tangential path that does or doesn't convince others. And all of these things are not just ok, but fantastic, fun, thought-provoking, and truly madly deeply Heretical!

Can't argue with that!