Which do you prefer GOT Books or Series?

[sj4iy]

Ramsay was not needed? What? he is the one who convinces theon to murder the millers boys. ie convincing him to turn to evil. in the books he both seduces theon to evil then punishes him for it, making there relationship even more twisted. Also the meaning of the word reek is lost.

I already said that it gave Theon much better character development than in the books because he's doing it of his own volition.

Ramsay wasn't necessary to have Theon do something terrible. He still suffers for what he's done in season 3. The meaning of the name "Reek" is pretty obvious to anyone watching the show, even without the backstory in the books.

[Miodrag]

Ramsay was not needed? What? he is the one who convinces theon to murder the millers boys. ie convincing him to turn to evil. in the books he both seduces theon to evil then punishes him for it, making there relationship even more twisted. Also the meaning of the word reek is lost.

Of course Ramsay wasn't needed for show-apologists. For them, nobody and nothing's ever needed, unless D&D say or do otherwise. Looks like the significance of any aspect of ASOIAF simply escapes them, until they see the pale shadow of it in the show: then it becomes the most important thing in the world, inclusion of which is true testament to D&D brilliance.

[Hath4]

He did not in the show dragmar convinced him to do the deed. he takes reeks place. the reek name holds none of the significance it did in the book. it would have much deeper meaning if you knew that ramsay had a servant named reek and ramsay himself used the name to dupe theon. I generally support the changes, but this was a stupid one and continues to effect the arc.

[ground_control]

This didn't stop them from say, casting Margaery for just a few scenes in season 2, presumably contracting Dormer for multiple seasons and banking on S3 being confirmed for her salary to be worth it (she's no movie star but I assume Dormer's not cheap). Seeing as they cast Dagmer in the role of Reek anyway, it seems pretty absurd to me that they decided to cut Ramsay out. You could make the argument that the whole Reek deception would have been confusing on screen, in which case they could simply have done away with it and had Ramsay captured by Rodrik under his true identity.

I never said they couldn't have done things another way, or chosen to delay casting other characters, just that I think delaying Theon was *a* reasonable choice.

[Miodrag]

both of them saying they never saw Cersei as funny until Lena auditioned for the role (did they even READ AFfC???)

They actually said that? Jesus, it's always worse than I imagined. And not only AFFC, they had to sleepwalk through ACOK too - Cersei's "Gods be good, I'm starting to believe Robert was the clever one" line, when Tyrion informs her Stannis sailed to Storm's End, obviously didn't catch their attention. Hilarious, really.

And just out of curiosity, I'd really like to see Lena's audition tape. Like, D&D, who at that point never saw Cersei as funny, picked something for Lena to read, and when she did, they discovered that - Cersei can be funny? How did that work at all? I mean, was Lena intentionally funny (in which case, it'd be interesting to find out why did she make that choice), or was maybe her audition one more thing D&D managed to misinterpret completely, or they actually decided then and there to model TV Cersei not after book character but after Lena?

[protar]

Margaery was necessary because of Renly. Ramsay wasn't necessary and the extra time spent on Theon was well spent. In any case, Margaery's 'few scenes' were full of character development in Season 2 alone.

You can't just introduce a whole host of characters that aren't necessary in a tv show and then not have them show up until later. Moving Ramsay didn't detract from his character at all. Not having Margaery by Renly's side would have been a HUGE problem for her character's story. They didn't mess anything up.

Clearly Ramsay was necessary because despite wanting to cut him out they needed someone to take his exact role. Why not just cast him? The only downside to this is the lack of confirmation of Season 3, but the show had been such a hit that it would have been a pretty safe bet to go forwards with it anyway. It would have been no more of a risk than contracting Dormer and Margaery was no more essential to S2 than Ramsay could have been. They could have just said that Renly has a wife and mention her every now and then. In fact I'd say Ramsay was far more essential to S2 than Margaery was. The end of Theon's arc in S2 was a confusing mess as a result of his exclusion.

In any case I don't think actor contracts was the reason why Ramsay was cut. The reason imo was that they thought the whole Reek switcheroo would be too confusing, but they still wanted there to a mystery about Ramsay's identity. So they cast Dagmer instead and then cast Ramsay for S3, cooking up the poorly written and widely reviled plot line we got in S3 and are for some reason continuing to get in S4.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Honestly what they should have done was make ACOK around 15 episodes half way into season 3 rather than trying to fit the book in ten episodes. Then they would've had the time to do the WInterfell storyline correctly, and the Quorin Halfhand storyline correctly. There would not have been a episode 9 Blackwater. but so what, Blackwater doesn't become a lesser episode just because you show it as episode 3 of season 3. That would have also given them more time to do the Robb/Jeyne romance properly rather than a ridiculous field nurse introduction, and more importantly, they would have had the time to explain what is happening in Robb's campaign so the viewer understood exactly how the war is going.

[sj4iy]

Clearly Ramsay was necessary because despite wanting to cut him out they needed someone to take his exact role. Why not just cast him? The only downside to this is the lack of confirmation of Season 3, but the show had been such a hit that it would have been a pretty safe bet to go forwards with it anyway. It would have been no more of a risk than contracting Dormer and Margaery was no more essential to S2 than Ramsay could have been. They could have just said that Renly has a wife and mention her every now and then. In fact I'd say Ramsay was far more essential to S2 than Margaery was. The end of Theon's arc in S2 was a confusing mess as a result of his exclusion.

In any case I don't think actor contracts was the reason why Ramsay was cut. The reason imo was that they thought the whole Reek switcheroo would be too confusing, but they still wanted there to a mystery about Ramsay's identity. So they cast Dagmer instead and then cast Ramsay for S3, cooking up the poorly written and widely reviled plot line we got in S3 and are for some reason continuing to get in S4.

And yet I found it completely fine and very well done.

See how people's opinions can differ?

[Miodrag]

And yet I found it completely fine and very well done.

See how people's opinions can differ?

Wrong. What you wrote is not opinion, but an impression. Opinions are the foundation of any debate, while, on the other hand, it's impossible to debate with impressions.

[protar]

And yet I found it completely fine and very well done.

See how people's opinions can differ?

You found what well done? The season of torture or the confusing mess at the end of season 2? The former is pretty widely hated, so you're free to like it but you're still very much in the minority. The later - well they did a fine enough job getting around Ramsay not being there, but that wasn't necessary. I don't know anyone who understood what was going on with that ending. Has it not occurred to you that maybe you only thought it was fine because you've read the books and the confusion didn't affect you? For someone who doesn't have knowledge of the source material the ending to Theon's arc is completely nonsensical.

[sj4iy]

You found what well done? The season of torture or the confusing mess at the end of season 2? The former is pretty widely hated, so you're free to like it but you're still very much in the minority. The later - well they did a fine enough job getting around Ramsay not being there, but that wasn't necessary. I don't know anyone who understood what was going on with that ending. Has it not occurred to you that maybe you only thought it was fine because you've read the books and the confusion didn't affect you? For someone who doesn't have knowledge of the source material the ending to Theon's arc is completely nonsensical.

I was talking about Theon's season 2 arc and introducing Ramsay later. No, I didn't care for the torture scenes, but I never care for torture scenes, short or long, so I hold my opinion back on that because I can't stand to watch them very long. I do think that it definitely showed Ramsay for what he was...playing around with Theon by 'rescuing him' only to lead him back. The psychological warfare done to him was tremendous, to the point where he thinks any 'rescue' is just another trick. I had goose prickles during the entire bath scene in the last episode, it was nearly as bad as the torture in some respects. So I think they have done the job they set out to do.

And I watch it with my in-laws and discuss the show with my friends and my sister. I'm the only one who has read the books. None of them have found Theon's arc to be in any way at all confusing, although they have had various opinions as to his torture. Actually, the things they ask me most about are Dany's story lines as well as what's going on in King's Landing. Some of them don't even realize why Dany is heir to the throne. But Theon's story is pretty easy to follow in the show.

[protar]

I was talking about Theon's season 2 arc and introducing Ramsay later. No, I didn't care for the torture scenes, but I never care for torture scenes, short or long, so I hold my opinion back on that because I can't stand to watch them very long. I do think that it definitely showed Ramsay for what he was...playing around with Theon by 'rescuing him' only to lead him back. The psychological warfare done to him was tremendous, to the point where he thinks any 'rescue' is just another trick. I had goose prickles during the entire bath scene in the last episode, it was nearly as bad as the torture in some respects. So I think they have done the job they set out to do.

And I watch it with my in-laws and discuss the show with my friends and my sister. I'm the only one who has read the books. None of them have found Theon's arc to be in any way at all confusing, although they have had various opinions as to his torture. Actually, the things they ask me most about are Dany's story lines as well as what's going on in King's Landing. Some of them don't even realize why Dany is heir to the throne. But Theon's story is pretty easy to follow in the show.

I wouldn't be surprised if the ending of Theon's arc was so confusing it went over viewer's heads entirely. I mean did any of your viewers say "so I guess it was that bastard of the Dreadfort who took Winterfell at the end?" I'm also kind of confused as to how you can simultaneously say you liked Theon's S2 arc, and dislike torture scenes. Theon's S2 was pretty much entirely torture scenes. The false escape was really the only bit of any value.

Imo Theon's arc should have been:

S2: Introduce Ramsay in person and have him clearly take Winterfell, capture Theon etc.

S3: Theon captured by Ramsay. Introduce Jeyne Pool as a fellow captive of Ramsay, setting up the marriage plot in the final episode. No more than 3 or 4 episodes devoted to Theon.

S4: The first half of Theon's ADWD arc, culminating in the wedding to Jeyne.

[Yojimbo]

They actually said that? Jesus, it's always worse than I imagined. And not only AFFC, they had to sleepwalk through ACOK too - Cersei's "Gods be good, I'm starting to believe Robert was the clever one" line, when Tyrion informs her Stannis sailed to Storm's End, obviously didn't catch their attention. Hilarious, really.

And just out of curiosity, I'd really like to see Lena's audition tape. Like, D&D, who at that point never saw Cersei as funny, picked something for Lena to read, and when she did, they discovered that - Cersei can be funny? How did that work at all? I mean, was Lena intentionally funny (in which case, it'd be interesting to find out why did she make that choice), or was maybe her audition one more thing D&D managed to misinterpret completely, or they actually decided then and there to model TV Cersei not after book character but after Lena?

Indeed, and is one of the reason why I can't get behind the notion D&D liked the books. Cersei in the books has never been shown as anything other than a self-important fool, the very title she keeps on institing other people are, what makes her character so great is GRRM allowed a character like her to have so much power. Cersei is so delusional she think all her plans are utter "gold", it the fault of her "peers" (more like enemies in Cersei's mind) can't see her true genius. Honestly I can't wait to see Cersei chapters in aWoW, to see how far Cersei can mess things up for the realm and herself, because she is literally a walking, talking joke; the true tragedy is her actions will lead to massive suffering for the realm and it people. One of the funnest things in aSoIaF for me was when Aurine Waters steals Cersei fleet, I burst out laughing the first time I read that, and it still gives me a chuckle today :D

But what do we get in the show? A loving mother making the best of a bad situation..............

Wrong. What you wrote is not opinion, but an impression. Opinions are the foundation of any debate, while, on the other hand, it's impossible to debate with impressions.

I think it safe to say that the best you are going to get my friend :frown5:

[Haldebrandt]

Do you guys know of any reviews of the books by people who started reading after seasons 2 or 3? Readers impressions of the show are everywhere of course, but I'm looking for viewers impressions of the books (preferably after the second season).

[Miodrag]

I think it safe to say that the best you are going to get my friend :frown5:

I can't deny these show-apologists do have a strategic thought in them: they know that, once on the territory of opinions, the show can't look good - so they stick to impressions. And the discipline of it is also remarkable.

[sj4iy]

I wouldn't be surprised if the ending of Theon's arc was so confusing it went over viewer's heads entirely. I mean did any of your viewers say "so I guess it was that bastard of the Dreadfort who took Winterfell at the end?" I'm also kind of confused as to how you can simultaneously say you liked Theon's S2 arc, and dislike torture scenes. Theon's S2 was pretty much entirely torture scenes. The false escape was really the only bit of any value.

Imo Theon's arc should have been:

S2: Introduce Ramsay in person and have him clearly take Winterfell, capture Theon etc.

S3: Theon captured by Ramsay. Introduce Jeyne Pool as a fellow captive of Ramsay, setting up the marriage plot in the final episode. No more than 3 or 4 episodes devoted to Theon.

S4: The first half of Theon's ADWD arc, culminating in the wedding to Jeyne.

I don't have to like watching the torture to appreciate what they were doing with his character...for me, it's two separate things. Just like there are many things that disturb me in this show, yet I still love watching it (same for the books). And what you proposed means that the writers run out of material very quickly. Hell, for all we know, Theon may die in TWoW and have a very specific purpose for doing so that another storyline has to match. I won't make my final judgment of whether it was stretched out too much until I've seen all of it.

I also don't like comparing it directly to the books because that way lies madness. I can read the books and watch the show and accept them as two different interpretations and enjoy them as such. For example, I loved Jon's storyline in the books with his defending the Wall without help...and I love his storyline in the show where he goes off to Craster's Keep. I don't have to choose one over the other...I can enjoy both of them. And while I don't enjoy torture scenes in the books or on TV, they don't exactly ruin a story if the story is compelling.

[Aldark]

Well , the series is spectacular , yes the show is veeery good. But then they start not to follow the book exactly in some parts , and as time passes they do it more and more. So the books have to take the cake for me. If the show is veeeery good as i stated , the books are veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery good. Mr. Martin is awesome...!

[Good Guy Garlan]

What about Dany's war on slavery, especially ADWD part? Is there any similar example of such a brilliant depiction of the damage an oppressive system leaves on the oppressed?

Oh, really? There are literally hundreds of examples of this, fictional or otherwise, and all of them better than the Meereen debacle.

What about Narrative in the life of Frederick Douglass, Incidents in the life of a slave girl, The Color Purple, 12 Years a Slave, Slaughterhouse-five, Schindler's Ark, The Kite Runner, 1984, Brave New World, V for Vendetta, Uncle Tom's Cabin, In the Garden of Beasts, The Book Thief, Wool, Fahrenheit 451. Even a book by dear Benioff fulfills this criteria, The City of Thieves.

For the record, I think Asoiaf could very well be considered great literature, but trying to pass it off as this completely unique thing by disregarding hundreds of works of literature is simply ridiculous

[protar]

I don't have to like watching the torture to appreciate what they were doing with his character...for me, it's two separate things. Just like there are many things that disturb me in this show, yet I still love watching it (same for the books). And what you proposed means that the writers run out of material very quickly. Hell, for all we know, Theon may die in TWoW and have a very specific purpose for doing so that another storyline has to match. I won't make my final judgment of whether it was stretched out too much until I've seen all of it.

I also don't like comparing it directly to the books because that way lies madness. I can read the books and watch the show and accept them as two different interpretations and enjoy them as such. For example, I loved Jon's storyline in the books with his defending the Wall without help...and I love his storyline in the show where he goes off to Craster's Keep. I don't have to choose one over the other...I can enjoy both of them. And while I don't enjoy torture scenes in the books or on TV, they don't exactly ruin a story if the story is compelling.

It wouldn't have resulted in them running out of material at all. I only said half of his ADWD material in S4, leaving the other half for S5 which would align with ADWD anyway. Then S6 would have moved into TWOW territory anyway so Theon's arc would be in perfect sync with everyone else's.

For me it's impossible to enjoy D+D's random deviations on their own right for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I find them to be poorly written - Craster's Keep was mindless filler for example. And secondly because they deny long time fans of the series any opportunity to see their favourite scenes translated on screen. This is going to be the only large scale adaptation of ASOIAF for ages, possibly ever. Future adaptations can take liberties, the first one should do everything it can to remain faithful. If D+D wanted to write their own story they could have written their own TV show. Not that I believe D+D could write a successful TV show (or a successful anything for that matter.) without help but...opinions, opinions.

[ChildoftheTropicalForest]

Book series by far.

I started with seasons 1 and 2 and borrowed ASoS from my son when I just HAD to find out what happened next. What this did for me was establish the characters, putting faces to the names, understanding Westeros' real threat from Season One's first scene, and a very broad skim of the seven kingdoms.

The books answered so many questions that the series couldn't begin to touch simply due to time constraints. Now I am on my second read of

the series and almost through Feast...having begun at Storm reading Feast, Dance, Thrones, and Clash (wouldn't recommend this order). I've also read Hedge Knight, Sworn Sword, and Mystery Knight and am currently halfway through The Princess and the Queen. (I also own Lands of Ice and Fire, two of said maps are on my closet doors for quick reference ...it was a Christmas gift from my son...thoughtful kid, no?).

Thank you HBO for giving me a taste of what is now a full blown addiction! The wait for TWoW is almost unbearable...uggghhhh!