Viserys, Renly and the case of Kinslaying

[Maester Pedant]

So if someone is being executed in front of you, for a crime he actually committed, and for which he knew the sentence is death, and you had absolutely nothing to do with encouraging the crime or sentencing him, and there's nothing you can do to stop it, then you not only have an obligation to say something, but failing to do so counts as killing them?

You are absolutely right.

All this still results in her not trying to save a relative.

I wasn't saying attempting Viserys but Drogo, no matter how futile it would be. I understand why she had enough, but this is about the technicality of kinslaying not the circumstances.

Trying to stop Viserys was trying to save him!

There was no other way to save him. What he did was not a crime that could be pardoned. The Dothraki are ruthless, and he committed what is perhaps the worst crime from their perspective. Even if Drogo was merciful (which I doubt he could be), there were other Khals there. Even the dosh khaleen would demand his death, when they found out!

Even if he hadn't been killed that very instant, because they couldn't come up with a way of killing him without bloodshed, what do you think would happen the very instant Viserys put a foot outside Vaes Dothrak?

Dany is not a kinslayer. She did everything she could to save Viserys.

[The Silver King]

All this still results in her not trying to save a relative.

I wasn't saying attempting Viserys but Drogo, no matter how futile it would be. I understand why she had enough, but this is about the technicality of kinslaying not the circumstances.

Really? She asked Jorah to get him out of there and she even offered him her dragon eggs, which were the most precious things to her at the time. Viserys disregarded her words and he payed for it so I really don't see how anyone can say she did nothing.

[Stormland's Fury]

Really? She asked Jorah to get him out of there and she even offered him her dragon eggs, which were the most precious things to her at the time. Viserys disregarded her words and he payed for it so I really don't see how anyone can say she did nothing.

I don't question her intentions or that she was trying to save him from himself, she was right. But how would it be seen in public? They don't know what she was thinking only that she maybe didn't speak up for him. In that world songs spread where she just stood idly by while her brother burned to death. Probably some assume that she did it on purpose to get power. Westeros/Essos are not the most objective bunch and go often by hear-say. Robb turned into a wolf at times after all.

That's the same reason Stannis got scot-free from "killing" Renly.

[Maester Pedant]

I don't question her intentions or that she was trying to save him from himself, she was right. But how would it be seen in public? They don't know what she was thinking only that she maybe didn't speak up for him. In that world songs spread where she just stood idly by while her brother burned to death. Probably some assume that she did it on purpose to get power. Westeros/Essos are not the most objective bunch and go often by hear-say. Robb turned into a wolf at times after all.

People won't say that because of her action or inaction. People will use that against her because they hate her. Any action in her past will be put in the worst possible light to denigrate her. Had she begged for Viserys' life, I'm sure they would find a way to turn that into a negative thing. Or they would just fail to mention that and still portray the scene as the actions of an ambitious shrew who killed her own brother for his claim to the Iron Throne.

Case in point: the readers of AGoT have access to Dany's thoughts during that scene, and to her actions before Viserys' death, and yet some of them choose to look at it in the worst possible light.

In other words, (and I truly hate this phrase and myself for using it and I swear this is the first and last time I will ever use it) "haters gonna hate".

[Stormland's Fury]

To be fair, what happened stayed basically in the tent and no one (in-universe) questioned why Viserys died. That seems more like a narrative device.

[Asha's Suckling Babe]

There is a difference in the 'laws' of Westeros and Dothraki. In Westeros there are no defined punishments for crimes, and for a crime for which someone is beheaded, another might be exiled or sent to the Wall. But for bearing steel in Vaes Dothrak the sentence is death, there would be no point in begging for Viserys's life.

I don't question her intentions or that she was trying to save him from himself, she was right. But how would it be seen in public? They don't know what she was thinking only that she maybe didn't speak up for him. In that world songs spread where she just stood idly by while her brother burned to death. Probably some assume that she did it on purpose to get power. Westeros/Essos are not the most objective bunch and go often by hear-say. Robb turned into a wolf at times after all.

I think that no one who would learn the exact situation, and who would understand the gravity of the crime Viserys commited, would call her a knislayer. But of course people who spread the rumors are going to be selective with the information.

[Stormland's Fury]

There is a difference in the 'laws' of Westeros and Dothraki. In Westeros there are no defined punishments for crimes, and for a crime for which someone is beheaded, another might be exiled or sent to the Wall. But for bearing steel in Vaes Dothrak the sentence is death, there would be no point in begging for Viserys's life.

.

I think that's what Viserys failed to see on top of believing he was owning them.

I think that no one who would learn the exact situation, and who would understand the gravity of the crime Viserys commited, would call her a knislayer. But of course people who spread the rumors are going to be selective with the information.

Yeah, just wrote a post where I think it's unlikely the events even left the tent. Which is even similar to Renly's death.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

That's true, but Dany didn't even attempted to stop it. I think that's the important part. Not sure if she really thought in terms of Drogo not being able to prevent it.

Jared of House Frey, I name you liar. She tried to stop it over and over several times. At the end, she only could watch in shock.

[Maester Pedant]

I think that's what Viserys failed to see on top of believing he was owning them.

Yeah, just wrote a post where I think it's unlikely the events even left the tent. Which is even similar to Renly's death.

Actually, I think there are rumours about it mentioned in ADwD, IIRC.

[Nyrhex]

Haven't we done these topics (individually and in comparison) to death already?

Dany has no real way to prevent Viserys' death. To suggest that incident was 'kinslaying' is not just pushing a point, it's giving it an almighty shove. It's certainly not in any way parallel or similar to what happened to Renly, whether or not you choose to say that what happened to Renly was kinslaying. There is no comparison. Complaining of Dany getting a 'clean sheet' while Stannis gets 'demonised' is therefore just daft.

The text disagrees with you there.

If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent’s brother had been burned by

Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What

sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

Doing nothing, standing and watching even when your brother is guilty and the king orders him dead, seems to be seen as so close to the definition of kinslaying that to Jon, it is too vague to conclude that it is not actual kinslaying. Did Axell have an option, when Stannis sentenced his brother to death? Had he tried to prevent it, he would have been added to the fire for treason as well. Yet Jon still sees him as either a kinslayer or the next bext thing.

Now, that is from an outsider's perspective. From Dany's mind we see her thinking of her son as king on the Iron Throne, and in Visery's last moments on earth:

She did not know if she had enough words, yet when she was done Khal Drogo spoke a few brusque sentences in Dothraki, and she knew he understood. The sun of her life stepped down from the high bench. “What did he say?” the man who had been her brother asked her, flinching.

It had grown so silent in the hall that she could hear the bells in Khal Drogo’s hair, chiming softly with each step he took. His bloodriders followed him, like three copper shadows. Daenerys had gone cold all over. “He says you shall have a splendid golden crown that men shall tremble to behold.”

Dany thinks of Viserys as her brother in past tense. She translates Drogo, and may know what is coming. We don't know if she knowingly did not translate his orders to grab Viserys, or if it was left unsaid.

Last thing she thinks:

He was no dragon, Dany thought, curiously calm. Fire cannot kill a dragon.

So, over all pretty identical to Axell and his brother. Going with a Westerosi POV, Dany is either a kinslayer or the next best thing.

[Stormland's Fury]

Actually, I think there are rumours about it mentioned in ADwD, IIRC.

But nothing transpired really or they're dismissed, wasn't it Brienne (the only one living who knew what happened) who says as much? Even Loras still blamed Brienne IIRC.

[The Silver King]

I don't question her intentions or that she was trying to save him from himself, she was right. But how would it be seen in public? They don't know what she was thinking only that she maybe didn't speak up for him. In that world songs spread where she just stood idly by while her brother burned to death. Probably some assume that she did it on purpose to get power. Westeros/Essos are not the most objective bunch and go often by hear-say. Robb turned into a wolf at times after all.

That's the same reason Stannis got scot-free from "killing" Renly.

Then the public's perception of what happened is wrong, unless told from the perspective of someone who was actually there most tales travelling around planetos are pretty iffy. Whether the songs don't mention it or not she did try to save her brother and even if she didn't I still wouldn't consider her a kinslayer.

[HexMachina]

But nothing transpired really or they're dismissed, wasn't it Brienne (the only one living who knew what happened) who says as much? Even Loras still blamed Brienne IIRC.

Winds of Winter spoiler

The news definitely spread and was distorted. Arriane wonders why Viserys was allowed to die by Dany

[Stormland's Fury]

Then the public's perception of what happened is wrong, unless told from the perspective of someone who was actually there most tales travelling around planetos are pretty iffy. Whether the songs don't mention it or not she did try to save her brother and even if she didn't I still wouldn't consider her a kinslayer.

I don't consider her one either. I was more arguing what ramifications things like that could have on a person. Twofiaf is full of such injustices.

[Stormland's Fury]

Winds of Winter spoiler

The news definitely spread and was distorted. Arriane wonders why Viserys was allowed to die by Dany

Ok thanks. Didn't read that chapter yet though, but that speaks for GRRM that it at least comes up after so much time has passed.

[Storm's Arrival]

People forget that the whole shadow baby birthing was after Renlys death.

No doubt melisandre created one to kill Renly, but there is no evidence that Stannis knew or planned with Melisandre for THAT shadow assasination. In fact Stannis didnt fully believe or trust in the power if Melisandre at that point.

Of course Danaerys appeasers would deny this possibility without consideration. But these people would probably have followed her cheering from Yunkai only to starve or recieve the bloody flux while Danaerys is busy choosing her bed partner for the night...

[The Silver King]

I don't consider her one either. I was more arguing what ramifications things like that could have on a person. Twofiaf is full of such injustices.

Agreed. Well I think Dany is well accustomed to being villainized, I mean they are rumours she bathes in blood and all that nonsense. For every tale that can spread about her being a kinslayer, two more spread about her trying to abolish slavery.

I just find it strange that people think she should be considered kinslayer and that the OP melds her situation with one that is much more cut and dry. I hardly see Stannis get any flak for killing Renly since he was a usurper but Dany who gets a sword held to her pregnant stomach and still tries to save her brother gets labelled even a possible kinslayer. The whole thing baffles me.

[Stormland's Fury]

No doubt melisandre created one to kill Renly, but there is no evidence that Stannis knew or planned with Melisandre for THAT shadow assasination. In fact Stannis didnt fully believe or trust in the power if Melisandre at that point.

The second one was on him no doubt (no relative anyway). The Renly one was extremely vague. I'm sure Stannis even hoped it would have nothing to do with killing Renly. What happened if the shadow assassin killed Margaery or Mace instead or even just brainwashed Renly with the shadow magic? That could also mean Stannis' victory.

[Stormland's Fury]

Agreed. Well I think Dany is well accustomed to being villainized, I mean they are rumours she bathes in blood and all that nonsense. For every tale that can spread about her being a kinslayer, two more spread about her trying to abolish slavery.

I just find it strange that people think she should be considered kinslayer and that the OP melds her situation with one that is much more cut and dry. I hardly see Stannis get any flak for killing Renly since he was a usurper but Dany who gets a sword held to her pregnant stomach and still tries to save her brother gets labelled even a possible kinslayer. The whole thing baffles me.

I'm a Stannis fan but I think there is a reason GRRM chose to get rid of the silblings that way. None of them really tried to actively kill off their silbling. I am convinced that Stannis genuinely tried to talk some sense into Renly the same way Dany tried to do with Viserys. Mel probably wanted to do the shadow thing right away without a parley. Stannis is just extremely bad at conveying his feelings while Dany's failed persuasion was solely Viserys' fault.

[HexMachina]

Of course Danaerys appeasers would deny this possibility without consideration. But these people would probably have followed her cheering from Yunkai only to starve or recieve the bloody flux while Danaerys is busy choosing her bed partner for the night...

What are you actually talking about?