Viserys, Renly and the case of Kinslaying

[Maester Pedant]

What are you actually talking about?

He's talking about the fact that Stannis is perfect in every respect and that every breath that Daenerys takes comes directly from the bowels of hell.

Basically, you need to be a "Danaerys (sic) appeaser" to consider that she wasn't a kinslayer.

Of course she is a kinslayer, since she is the most evil person who has ever existed.

[mormont]

The text disagrees with you there.

No, it doesn't. At best, a character (ie Jon) disagrees with me. And that's assuming that Jon would see the two cases as analogous, which I doubt. The quote suggests (probably rightly) that Ser Axell could have done something to prevent his brother being burnt by Melisandre: others have pointed out (certainly rightly) that Dany did all she could do save Viserys.

Now, that is from an outsider's perspective. From Dany's mind we see her thinking of her son as king on the Iron Throne

Yes, we do. But to argue that this implies any sort of malice aforethought about Viserys' death would be utterly ridiculous. It's a passing thought, made at a time when Dany's unborn son was Viserys' heir.

Dany thinks of Viserys as her brother in past tense.

Showing that she knows he is doomed, yes. But not showing that she had any way to prevent it (in fact, implying rather the reverse).

So, over all pretty identical to Axell and his brother.

Identical except for all the differences, I suppose.

[The Silver King]

I'm a Stannis fan but I think there is a reason GRRM chose to get rid of the silblings that way. None of them really tried to actively kill off their silbling. I am convinced that Stannis genuinely tried to talk some sense into Renly the same way Dany tried to do with Viserys. Mel probably wanted to do the shadow thing right away without a parley. Stannis is just extremely bad at conveying his feelings while Dany's failed persuasion was solely Viserys' fault.

I see what you mean. I guess I never really thought about it (mostly cause I'm not a Stannis fan) but he doesn't have POV chapters either so we really don't even know how he felt after Renly's death. Dany clearly feels bad about Viserys especially in her last aDwD chapter, I might have to rethink a few things about Stannis.

People forget that the whole shadow baby birthing was after Renlys death.

No doubt melisandre created one to kill Renly, but there is no evidence that Stannis knew or planned with Melisandre for THAT shadow assasination. In fact Stannis didnt fully believe or trust in the power if Melisandre at that point.

Of course Danaerys appeasers would deny this possibility without consideration. But these people would probably have followed her cheering from Yunkai only to starve or recieve the bloody flux while Danaerys is busy choosing her bed partner for the night...

Why do people try to escalate Dany threads to this stage?

[Stormland's Fury]

I see what you mean. I guess I never really thought about it (mostly cause I'm not a Stannis fan) but he doesn't have POV chapters either so we really don't even know how he felt after Renly's death. Dany clearly feels bad about Viserys especially in her last aDwD chapter, I might have to rethink a few things about Stannis.

Stannis is hunted by nightmares about the peach and seeing Renly's bloody throat (I think he even links the juice from the peach with the blood) and he confides in Davos that: "he only showed me a peach and I answered with my sword" (paraphrasing). He also says something along the lines that he still loved Renly as the boy he knew not the man he had become. It's save to assume that Stannis still cared about Renly and feels guilty.

Again, similar to Dany who still loves the boy Viserys was, but not the man he became. (hence naming a dragon after him)

[Mithras]

That's true, but Dany didn't even attempted to stop it. I think that's the important part. Not sure if she really thought in terms of Drogo not being able to prevent it.

The bared steel shone a fearful red in the glare from the firepits. “Keep away from me!” Viserys hissed. Ser Jorah backed off a step, and her brother climbed unsteadily to his feet. He waved the sword over his head, the borrowed blade that Magister Illyrio had given him to make him seem more kingly. Dothraki were shrieking at him from all sides, screaming vile curses.

Dany gave a wordless cry of terror. She knew what a drawn sword meant here, even if her brother did not.

Her voice made Viserys turn his head, and he saw her for the first time. “There she is,” he said, smiling. He stalked toward her, slashing at the air as if to cut a path through a wall of enemies, though no one tried to bar his way.

“The blade… you must not,” she begged him. “Please, Viserys. It is forbidden. Put down the sword and come share my cushions. There’s drink, food… is it the dragon’s eggs you want? You can have them, only throw away the sword.”

“Do as she tells you, fool,” Ser Jorah shouted, “before you get us all killed.”

Viserys laughed. “They can’t kill us. They can’t shed blood here in the sacred city… but I can.” He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys’s breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. “I want what I came for,” he told her. “I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I’m taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I’ll cut the bastard out and leave it for him.” The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.

Distantly, as from far away, Dany heard her handmaid Jhiqui sobbing in fear, pleading that she dared not translate, that the khal would bind her and drag her behind his horse all the way up the Mother of Mountains. She put her arm around the girl. “Don’t be afraid,” she said. “I shall tell him.”

She did not know if she had enough words, yet when she was done Khal Drogo spoke a few brusque sentences in Dothraki, and she knew he understood. The sun of her life stepped down from the high bench. “What did he say?” the man who had been her brother asked her, flinching.

It had grown so silent in the hall that she could hear the bells in Khal Drogo’s hair, chiming softly with each step he took. His bloodriders followed him, like three copper shadows. Daenerys had gone cold all over. “He says you shall have a splendid golden crown that men shall tremble to behold.”

Viserys smiled and lowered his sword. That was the saddest thing, the thing that tore at her afterward… the way he smiled. “That was all I wanted,” he said. “What was promised.”

When the sun of her life reached her, Dany slid an arm around his waist. The khal said a word, and his bloodriders leapt forward. Qotho seized the man who had been her brother by the arms. Haggo shattered his wrist with a single, sharp twist of his huge hands. Cohollo pulled the sword from his limp fingers. Even now Viserys did not understand. “No,” he shouted, “you cannot touch me, I am the dragon, the dragon, and I will be crowned!”

I think Dany did all she could do but Viserys insisted on dying.

But that does not mean that Team fAegon will not exploit it and use as a (fairly succesful) black propoganda.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Here how it goes in the books.

A sense of dread closed around her heart. “Go to him,” she commanded Ser Jorah. “Stop him. Bring him here. Tell him he can have the dragon’s eggs if that is what he wants.”
(...)
Dany gave a wordless cry of terror. She knew what a drawn sword meant here, even if her brother did not. Her voice made Viserys turn his head, and he saw her for the first time. (...)
“The blade … you must not,” she begged him. “Please, Viserys. It is forbidden. Put down the sword and come share my cushions. There’s drink, food … is it the dragon’s eggs you want? You can have them, only throw away the sword.”

And the other one, so so very similar, at least in some observers' eyes:

Stannis studied her, unsmiling. “The Iron Throne is mine by rights. All those who deny that are my foes.”
(...)
Stannis frowned at her. “You presume too much, Lady Stark. I am the rightful king, and your son no less a traitor than my brother here. His day will come as well.”
(...)
“I am not without mercy,” thundered he who was notoriously without mercy. “Nor do I wish to sully Lightbringer with a brother’s blood. For the sake of the mother who bore us both, I will give you this night to rethink your folly, Renly. Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm’s End and your old seat on the council and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you.”

Identical, my ass. Dany "didn't even attempt to stop it". Only if you're very, very biased.

[Winter's Knight]

The bared steel shone a fearful red in the glare from the firepits. “Keep away from me!” Viserys hissed. Ser Jorah backed off a step, and her brother climbed unsteadily to his feet. He waved the sword over his head, the borrowed blade that Magister Illyrio had given him to make him seem more kingly. Dothraki were shrieking at him from all sides, screaming vile curses.

Dany gave a wordless cry of terror. She knew what a drawn sword meant here, even if her brother did not.

Her voice made Viserys turn his head, and he saw her for the first time. “There she is,” he said, smiling. He stalked toward her, slashing at the air as if to cut a path through a wall of enemies, though no one tried to bar his way.

“The blade… you must not,” she begged him. “Please, Viserys. It is forbidden. Put down the sword and come share my cushions. There’s drink, food… is it the dragon’s eggs you want? You can have them, only throw away the sword.”

“Do as she tells you, fool,” Ser Jorah shouted, “before you get us all killed.”

Viserys laughed. “They can’t kill us. They can’t shed blood here in the sacred city… but I can.” He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys’s breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. “I want what I came for,” he told her. “I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I’m taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I’ll cut the bastard out and leave it for him.” The sword point pushed through her silks and pricked at her navel. Viserys was weeping, she saw; weeping and laughing, both at the same time, this man who had once been her brother.

Distantly, as from far away, Dany heard her handmaid Jhiqui sobbing in fear, pleading that she dared not translate, that the khal would bind her and drag her behind his horse all the way up the Mother of Mountains. She put her arm around the girl. “Don’t be afraid,” she said. “I shall tell him.”

She did not know if she had enough words, yet when she was done Khal Drogo spoke a few brusque sentences in Dothraki, and she knew he understood. The sun of her life stepped down from the high bench. “What did he say?” the man who had been her brother asked her, flinching.

It had grown so silent in the hall that she could hear the bells in Khal Drogo’s hair, chiming softly with each step he took. His bloodriders followed him, like three copper shadows. Daenerys had gone cold all over. “He says you shall have a splendid golden crown that men shall tremble to behold.”

Viserys smiled and lowered his sword. That was the saddest thing, the thing that tore at her afterward… the way he smiled. “That was all I wanted,” he said. “What was promised.”

When the sun of her life reached her, Dany slid an arm around his waist. The khal said a word, and his bloodriders leapt forward. Qotho seized the man who had been her brother by the arms. Haggo shattered his wrist with a single, sharp twist of his huge hands. Cohollo pulled the sword from his limp fingers. Even now Viserys did not understand. “No,” he shouted, “you cannot touch me, I am the dragon, the dragon, and I will be crowned!”

I think Dany did all she could do but Viserys insisted on dying.

But that does not mean that Team fAegon will not exploit it and use as a (fairly succesful) black propoganda.

Ooooh actually I can point at Jorah's actions and call him "kingslayer" much more easily than I can call her kinslayer.

He deliberately calls Vis a fool while Dany is trying to appease-it's at this point that Vis turns on Dany.

[Mithras]

Ooooh actually I can point at Jorah's actions and call him "kingslayer" much more easily than I can call her kinslayer.

He deliberately calls Vis a fool while Dany is trying to appease-it's at this point that Vis turns on Dany.

Aawwh, Jorah. You are right. That was a huge mistake.

Twice exiled, and small wonder, Tyrion thought. I’d exile him too if I could. The man is cold, brooding, sullen, deaf to humor. And those are his good points.

[LordStoneheart]

Off-topic, I feel like we should rename Jorah from the series. He's nothing like the book Jorah as quoted above other than name and sometimes function. Any ideas?

[Leonardo]

I'm a big fan of Renly, however he knew Stan is, and basically plotted to kill him from the moment he got his army together. He would have killed him in battle and been a kinslayer himself

Renly didn't have to be crowned king either; its pretty obvious stan is wasn't going to father anymore children and with shireens delicate health renly was the heir apparent anyways.

He should have won the Tyrells FOR Stannis if he didn't want to be a kinslayer; said political marriage was certainly not out of the question and shows how ambitious Renly was. Stannis knows the battle for the dawn is coming again through meliaandre, so at least he has that going for him.

I have a brother I love dearly, I'm a huge Renly fan, and I think Stannis was well within his rights to kill Renly once it was certain what Renly meant to do. I'm the younger brother btw, so I'm in renly's place there as well ;D

[Winter's Knight]

Off-topic, I feel like we should rename Jorah from the series. He's nothing like the book Jorah as quoted above other than name and sometimes function. Any ideas?

Hottie McSmokin'pants

Missionary Mormont is what a friend calls him, 'cause she spends a lot more time....praying due to him.

[Nyrhex]

1. No, it doesn't. At best, a character (ie Jon) disagrees with me. And that's assuming that Jon would see the two cases as analogous, which I doubt. The quote suggests (probably rightly) that Ser Axell could have done something to prevent his brother being burnt by Melisandre: others have pointed out (certainly rightly) that Dany did all she could do save Viserys.

2. Yes, we do. But to argue that this implies any sort of malice aforethought about Viserys' death would be utterly ridiculous. It's a passing thought, made at a time when Dany's unborn son was Viserys' heir.

3. Showing that she knows he is doomed, yes. But not showing that she had any way to prevent it (in fact, implying rather the reverse).

4. Identical except for all the differences, I suppose.

1. And without a few characters giving us thier opinion, what do we have to base what is and is not considered kinslaying in the world of ASOIAF? The two cases are exactly the same - One sibling commits a crime and is execurted for it - one is burned at the stake, the other dies from a crown of molten gold poured on his head. In both cases the other sibling stood and did nothing as the punishment was being carried out. What could Axell have done? What could Dany have done? It does'nt matter since the point that Jon makes is that no effort was made, regardless of there being an actual option to save the brother. Like Axell, once the punishment was decided upon Dany stood and watched, gave up on the notion that this man was her brother, and then thought to herself that he was not a true x (believer in Axell's mind, dragon in Dany's). It's the same thing and to argue that it is differnet is laughably arbitrary and biased.

2. Ridiculous? Viserys was 23 when he died. To argue that Dany thinks of her son as her brother's heir, and that this makes him the future king, means that Dany does not believe that her 23 year old brother would have children. That is rediculous. Dany thinking of her son as king on the Iron Throne is definatly thinking instead of Viserys and his heirs, not after.

3. And? Jon considers the in-action by itself as good enough as kinslaying or close enough. Dany's ability to claim women and protect them from being raped and sold is in complete disregard to Dothraki custom and rules, yet she does have that influence. The argument that she did not have the power to act is both flawed, and irrelevant.

4. Identical for all intent and purpose. The only differences are the sexes of the kinslayer/close-to-kinslayer, death by fire or by severe burns, and the degree of influence over the king. Axell clearly has little influence, as we see in ASOS, and Dany clearly has much, as we see just two Dany chapters later.

[mormont]

1. And without a few characters giving us thier opinion, what do we have to base what is and is not considered kinslaying in the world of ASOIAF?

That's rather the wrong way of looking at it. What we have, all we can have, is opinions - it is a matter of opinion. Jon's opinion is that Axell Florent is the next thing to a kinslayer: my opinion is that Jon is wrong. Your opinion may well differ. That's fine. All of us have opinions, and many of those will differ, but that's the nature of the issue at hand.

The two cases are exactly the same

Really? So far as I can see, Alester Florent never even met a Dothraki, let alone being killed by one. ;)

OK, so you don't mean exactly the same. You mean, the important details are comparable. But even there, you're on shaky ground. There's zero evidence that Axell Florent tried to prevent his brother from committing treason, for example. Really, the only important thing that these three cases - Axell Florent, Renly and Dany - have in common is that a relative wound up getting killed. The circumstances, the means, the details are all different.

2. Ridiculous?

Yes.

Viserys was 23 when he died. To argue that Dany thinks of her son as her brother's heir, and that this makes him the future king, means that Dany does not believe that her 23 year old brother would have children.

No, it doesn't. It just means that he was Viserys' heir at that moment, and that she thought of him as such at that moment.

The alternative reading - that this thought indicates that Dany intended harm to her brother - is the very definition of 'tenuous'.

Dany thinking of her son as king on the Iron Throne is definatly thinking instead of Viserys and his heirs, not after.

And the evidence for this is...?

I mean, to say that your reading of a passage is 'definitely' the case, you need some evidence that fits with that reading. There's not a word of Dany's POV that independently suggests she ever planned any harm to her brother. She does think he won't ever succeed in conquering the Seven Kingdoms, mind you - so it's entirely natural that she would picture her son, not Viserys, as their ruler.

The argument that she did not have the power to act is both flawed, and irrelevant.

If the argument is that she did have the power to act, the argument that she didn't can be flawed, and it can be wrong, but it can't be irrelevant. To say that it was 'irrelevant' would imply that Dany's intervention or non-intervention wasn't a factor.

But in any case, the argument is correct.

[Maester Pedant]

1. And without a few characters giving us thier opinion, what do we have to base what is and is not considered kinslaying in the world of ASOIAF? The two cases are exactly the same - One sibling commits a crime and is execurted for it - one is burned at the stake, the other dies from a crown of molten gold poured on his head. In both cases the other sibling stood and did nothing as the punishment was being carried out. What could Axell have done? What could Dany have done? It does'nt matter since the point that Jon makes is that no effort was made, regardless of there being an actual option to save the brother. Like Axell, once the punishment was decided upon Dany stood and watched, gave up on the notion that this man was her brother, and then thought to herself that he was not a true x (believer in Axell's mind, dragon in Dany's). It's the same thing and to argue that it is differnet is laughably arbitrary and biased.

2. Ridiculous? Viserys was 23 when he died. To argue that Dany thinks of her son as her brother's heir, and that this makes him the future king, means that Dany does not believe that her 23 year old brother would have children. That is rediculous. Dany thinking of her son as king on the Iron Throne is definatly thinking instead of Viserys and his heirs, not after.

3. And? Jon considers the in-action by itself as good enough as kinslaying or close enough. Dany's ability to claim women and protect them from being raped and sold is in complete disregard to Dothraki custom and rules, yet she does have that influence. The argument that she did not have the power to act is both flawed, and irrelevant.

4. Identical for all intent and purpose. The only differences are the sexes of the kinslayer/close-to-kinslayer, death by fire or by severe burns, and the degree of influence over the king. Axell clearly has little influence, as we see in ASOS, and Dany clearly has much, as we see just two Dany chapters later.

You're comparing two very different situations. Viserys' acts in Vaes Dothrak were criminal and sacrilegous. There was nothing Dany could do to stop the punishment - and she did try to stop Viserys from committing the crime. Drogo might have tolerated Dany's disregard for Dothraki rules and custom in a context where he was, after all, the supreme and only ruler, but that does not indicate in the least that he could have done the same in the sacred city, in the presence of other Khals, and under the authority of the dosh khaleen.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll, troll... I don't care how far away Dany is from Westeros, or how perfect is she or does she have plot armor, SHE ISN'T A VILLAIN.

Her biggest mistakes is that readers started to become fixated on false nonpredictableness of this books (AOSIAF is predictable, get over it), then they notice that isn't true, and suddenly they rage over internet.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Sorry for grammar mistakes.

[Mithras]

Viserys openly insulted Drogo in front of other Dothraki including khals. In such a violent culture, if Drogo did less, his authority might have been weakened. Many Dothraki would think that he grew soft and feeble. Dany's further intervention might have been worse. A khal does not take orders from a khalesi.

[Batbob45]

Dany was not a Kinslayer. Her brother brought it on himself.

I admit, I have trouble deciding if Renly's death was or was not Kinslaying. Renly died when Stannis was asleep. On the other hand, the shadow did look like Stannis.

[Nyrhex]

1. That's rather the wrong way of looking at it. What we have, all we can have, is opinions - it is a matter of opinion. Jon's opinion is that Axell Florent is the next thing to a kinslayer: my opinion is that Jon is wrong. Your opinion may well differ. That's fine. All of us have opinions, and many of those will differ, but that's the nature of the issue at hand.

2. OK, so you don't mean exactly the same. You mean, the important details are comparable. But even there, you're on shaky ground. There's zero evidence that Axell Florent tried to prevent his brother from committing treason, for example. Really, the only important thing that these three cases - Axell Florent, Renly and Dany - have in common is that a relative wound up getting killed. The circumstances, the means, the details are all different.

3. And the evidence for this is...?

I mean, to say that your reading of a passage is 'definitely' the case, you need some evidence that fits with that reading. There's not a word of Dany's POV that independently suggests she ever planned any harm to her brother. She does think he won't ever succeed in conquering the Seven Kingdoms, mind you - so it's entirely natural that she would picture her son, not Viserys, as their ruler.

4. If the argument is that she did have the power to act, the argument that she didn't can be flawed, and it can be wrong, but it can't be irrelevant. To say that it was 'irrelevant' would imply that Dany's intervention or non-intervention wasn't a factor.

But in any case, the argument is correct.

1. Then "To suggest that incident was 'kinslaying' is not just pushing a point, it's giving it an almighty shove" is again, an opinion, and it is completely legitimate to suggest that Dany is a kinslayer according to some of the views on that definition we see in the books. It's not giving anything an almighty shove, it's going with views that are already described in the books. To protray it as a violent act to stretch the definition is false, since it is only going with a broad definition of the term that is already in the text. Kinslaying is not an exact science in the books. We see realy nothing to suggest that any deity actually gives a shit, and it is only the opinions of the people of the world in the books that matter, and we have a veriety of opinions regarding what is and is not kinslaying.

2. The argument is not that one brother tried to prevent the other from commiting treason, it is that regardless of what the brother did, just standing there and doing nothing while he is being executed is, or is very close to, kinslaying.

3. When her son sat the Iron Throne, she would see that he had bloodriders of his own to protect him against treachery in his Kingsguard.

If Dany thinks that Viserys would never sit the throne, than she is either intending to get rid of him, wait for him to do something stupid and be removed, or press her or her son's claim before Viserys. Either way, it's clear that she intends for her son to become king on the Iron Throne instead of Viserys. She thinks this at a time that Viserys is still alive, and young enough to marry and have several children who would logically be well before Dany's son in life for the throne. If she already treats her son's coronation as a question of "when", she is definatly thinking that there would be reason for him to ascend the throne instead of her brother, or her brother's possible heirs.

4. The argument that Jon makes is that regardless of the actual ability to make a difference, just standing there and watching is very close to, if not outright kinslaying. Axell has far less pull in Stannis' court than Dany has over Drogo. His options are far more limited, yet Jon still considers him in such low regard.

You're comparing two very different situations. Viserys' acts in Vaes Dothrak were criminal and sacrilegous. There was nothing Dany could do to stop the punishment - and she did try to stop Viserys from committing the crime. Drogo might have tolerated Dany's disregard for Dothraki rules and custom in a context where he was, after all, the supreme and only ruler, but that does not indicate in the least that he could have done the same in the sacred city, in the presence of other Khals, and under the authority of the dosh khaleen.

Why are they different? Alester had commited treason as well. There was nothing Axell could do to stop the punishment, and even when he has far less pull on his king than Dany has on hers, Jon regards him as either a kinslayer or very close to one.

[Stormland's Fury]

Dany was not a Kinslayer. Her brother brought it on himself.

I admit, I have trouble deciding if Renly's death was or was not Kinslaying. Renly died when Stannis was asleep. On the other hand, the shadow did look like Stannis.

I always wondered if the shadow might simply look like the one who fathered the shadow, regardless of the intention. It's a shadow after all.