Viserys, Renly and the case of Kinslaying

[TheButcherCrow]

It could be argued that both cases were monarchs executing someone for treason.

[Minsc]

Actually, I am wondering exactly why Renly hoped to replace Cersei with Margaery Tyrell and why he feared Cersei so much.

I don't know maybe the fact that she is a psychotic madwoman who is relentlessly cruel to those she believes has wronged her and she has just killed his older brother.

[Nyrhex]

I don't know maybe the fact that she is a psychotic madwoman who is relentlessly cruel to those she believes has wronged her and she has just killed his older brother.

Cersei only goes downhill later, and Renly was planning to replace her a year before Robert died. Not that he suspected her of killing his brother, he saw the boar do that.

Renly was a Tyrell pawn. It's as simple as that.

[Minsc]

Cersei only goes downhill later, and Renly was planning to replace her a year before Robert died. Not that he suspected her of killing his brother, he saw the boar do that.

Renly was a Tyrell pawn. It's as simple as that.

Cersei was always nuts.

There is no proof that Renly was a puppet.

[Nyrhex]

Cersei was always nuts.

There is no proof that Renly was a puppet.

To call her a psychotic madwoman is different than saying that she is not 100% sane. She did murder some of her husband's bastards, and she did sleep with her own brother. But that is not how she was seen by anyone.

And Renly was trying to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells. There is no clear win for him here, only for the Tyrells. Tyrells are happy -> Loras is happy -> Renly is happy. Renly does not know about the Twincest until after he crowns himself. He was still trying to replace his brother's wife and disinherit his nephews in order to get the Tyrells happy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

They wanted to replace Cersei because the Lannisters had too much power in KL.

[Minsc]

To call her a psychotic madwoman is different than saying that she is not 100% sane. She did murder some of her husband's bastards, and she did sleep with her own brother. But that is not how she was seen by anyone.

And Renly was trying to replace the Lannisters with the Tyrells. There is no clear win for him here, only for the Tyrells. Tyrells are happy -> Loras is happy -> Renly is happy. Renly does not know about the Twincest until after he crowns himself. He was still trying to replace his brother's wife and disinherit his nephews in order to get the Tyrells happy.

He wants to replace the Lannisters as they are too powerful and generally are terrible people, meanwhile the Tyrells are strong choice in how they have one of the only high born options to replace the Lannisters (as Doran wouldn't marry Arianne to Robert nor Ned wouldn't likely marry Sansa to Robert) along with the fact that Renly has strong influence with the Tyrells because of his relationship with Loras thus that equally helps his power base.

[Nyrhex]

They wanted to replace Cersei because the Lannisters had too much power in KL.

"They" being the Tyrells (by using Renly), who saw the power the Lannisters had, and wanted it for themselves. Thier attempt with Renly was not to aid the Baratheons for the goodness of thier heart. It was an attempt to replace one powerfull family with another.

He wants to replace the Lannisters as they are too powerful and generally are terrible people, meanwhile the Tyrells are strong choice in how they have one of the only high born options to replace the Lannisters (as Doran wouldn't marry Arianne to Robert nor Ned wouldn't likely marry Sansa to Robert) along with the fact that Renly has strong influence with the Tyrells because of his relationship with Loras thus that equally helps his power base.

And?

The Tyrells are the single most powerfull family, are not above killing a 13 year old, starving the city, working with LF, and are overall every bit as power hungry as the Lannisters. Look at thier actions post Blackwater. The court is growing ever Tyrell, and the Lannisters are not even replaced yet.

Willas and Garlan being cool guys and Marg playing the innocent tennage girl is realy a poor excuse to plot the removal of your brother's wife, along with her children (so that the marriage with Marg would actually mean something), or to wage war on your nephews with the declared intent to place thier heads on spikes.

[Minsc]

"They" being the Tyrells (by using Renly), who saw the power the Lannisters had, and wanted it for themselves. Thier attempt with Renly was not to aid the Baratheons for the goodness of thier heart. It was an attempt to replace one powerfull family with another.

And?

The Tyrells are the single most pwerfull family, are not above killing a 13 year old, starving the city, working with LF, and are overall every bit as power hungry as the Lannisters. Look at thier actions post Blackwater. The court is growing ever Tyrell, and the Lannisters are not even replaced yet.

Willas and Garlan being cool guys and Marg playing the innocent tennage girl is realy a poor excuse to plot the removal of your brother's wife, along with her children (so that the marriage with Marg would actually mean something), or to wage war on your nephews with the declared intent to place thier heads on spikes.

When was that?

The fact that they like power doesn't make them as terrible as the Lannisters, moreover like I said Renly has an in with the Tyrells though his relationship with Loras that their increased power helps himself while Lannister increased power endangers him.

[Sullen]

"They" being the Tyrells (by using Renly), who saw the power the Lannisters had, and wanted it for themselves. Thier attempt with Renly was not to aid the Baratheons for the goodness of thier heart. It was an attempt to replace one powerfull family with another.

You don't need to be a genius to see that the Lannisters had way too much power in King's Landing, Oblivious Eddard thought so as well. Both Renly and the Tyrells benefit from replacing Cersei with Margery.

And?

The Tyrells are the single most pwerfull family, are not above killing a 13 year old, starving the city, working with LF, and are overall every bit as power hungry as the Lannisters. Look at thier actions post Blackwater. The court is growing ever Tyrell, and the Lannisters are not even replaced yet.

Willas and Garlan being cool guys and Marg playing the innocent tennage girl is realy a poor excuse to plot the removal of your brother's wife, along with her children (so that the marriage with Marg would actually mean something), or to wage war on your nephews with the declared intent to place thier heads on spikes.

They have yet to be proven to be as ruthless as the Lannisters at the time Renly tries to replace Cersei and their public image is also much better. Robert is also falling out with Cersei more everyday. Fortifying the Crown's alliance with the most powerful Great House is not only advantageous for Renly, it's advantageous for the whole Realm.

As for Renly crowning himself, he only does so after the Lannister coup. He tried to take them under his protection right before Robert died in case you had forgotten. There is also nothing to show that Renly would have killed Tommen and Myrcella, to do so would have been a PR nightmare, and Renly is extremely concerned with his public image. (As are the Tyrells)

[mormont]

Renly was a Tyrell pawn. It's as simple as that.

Is it?

Which Tyrell is he supposed to be a pawn of? Mace? Unlikely. Lord Puff Fish is not the subtle scheming sort. Olenna? She's not in favour of placing her granddaughter on the throne. Loras? Whatever you think of Renly, it's clear Loras is not the brains in that relationship.

Yes, Renly probably did want to please the Tyrells. But that doesn't mean he did this at their behest. He's quite capable of wanting to please the Tyrells and coming up with a plan that will do so. As to what he'd gain: presumably, he'd become Hand of the King, and Robert would then revert to his habit of leaving the Hand to effectively run the kingdom. So there's that. In addition, the Tyrells would take over as the main funders of the Crown, and probably dominate the Small Council, so Renly would effectively be running the realm with his allies, as opposed to the growing Lannister influence as at AGOT which presumably was marginalising Renly.

[Stormland's Fury]

Aw c'mon you can't have dodge that with a glib elision.

Either "conscious inaction" makes everyone in that tent a killer for not intervening to save Viserys's life. They should have begged and wailed and arm wrestled with Drogo and anything less that this would make them guilty and we can say they killed Viserys as much as Drogo did.

Or we can say that actually that sounds like a load of nonsense and that "conscious inaction" does not make the tentful of spectators slayers. And is that's the case then neither is Dany a slayer nor, ergo, a kinslayer.

Seems pretty simple to me.

.

Kinslaying was the important word, not slayer.

[the trees have eyes]

I'm just going to talk about Dany. I think an argument can be made that Dany is thrice over a Kin/Kingslayer.

1) Viserys. No Dany didn't kill him directly but she did absolutely nothing to stop his death. She didn't say a peep. She actively wanted him dead and could have stopped it if she wanted. She didn't though and watched him die. I don't buy the argument that she was powerless to stop Drogo. She was carrying his son who is the "Stallion who mounts the world". He was willing to invade Westeros for her yet people don't think he would have punished Viserys in some other way if she asked? We will never know though because she never asked because she wanted him dead.

Btw, Is it Kinslaying if you kill you husband or does it have to be a blood relative?

2) Draego - Dany killed her son and the future King by using blood magic. She didn't intend to do this yet she is responsible.

3) Drogo - Dany smothers him. Yes it was a mercy killing yet she still killed him.

Why does this matter? When she gets to Westeros will these tales follow her? If people think she is some demon spawn who smothers her own husband, usurped her brothers throne, and killed her own son with blood magic, then she is in for some real problems.

Dany doesn't control Drogo. You also have an interesting interpretation of Dothraki culture and their sacred laws. The only thing you were correct on is the bolded part. Strike one.

MMD performed the blood magic that killed Rhaego and it was Jorah who carried her into the tent against instructions. Strike two.

Yes a kinslayer has to kill a blood relative. She does kill Drogo but as you note it is a mercy killing. Not of a blood relative though. Strike three.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I'm just going to talk about Dany. I think an argument can be made that Dany is thrice over a Kin/Kingslayer.

1) Viserys. No Dany didn't kill him directly but she did absolutely nothing to stop his death. She didn't say a peep.

Dude, if you're lying outright ("she did absolutely nothing to stop his death. She didn't say a peep"), why not go big? Dany deliberately killed Viserys. She ordered her goons to hold him down, personally poured the gold on his head and laughed gleefully while doing that. Don't be shy.

[Batbob45]

even thought Renly agreed that Dany should be assassinate, upsurp her brother,and starve the smallfolks at King Landing Renly didn't deserved to be murder by shadow. He was a Kinmocker. A kinmocker is a term my made up when someone mock an innocent member of their family. the exceptions to being called a Kinmocker is if the person that is doing the mocking is defending themself and the person they are mocking is an older sibling of the same gender. Renly mocking Shireen count as Kinmocking. Renly mocking Joffrey and Stannis doesn't count because Joffrey is not blood and Stannis is his older sibling who is not innocent.Joffrey use to mock and torment his sibling so he a Kinmocker. Being a Kinmocker is not as bad as being a Kinslayer, but it still is a A hole thing to do to uour own family. At worst, Renly should of been Stannis' prisoner. Those brothers should of listen to Cat.

Dany's brother made his own bed, so he must lay on it( her brother mad his choice and he had to face the effects of the choices. I agree that Drogo is his own Khal. I don't blame Dany for what happen to Viserys, I bame Viserys for being such a cruel and drunk idiot.