Ruthven Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Identity is one of central themes of the story. In some cases it gets as tangible as a character seemingly dying, only to come back to life. Sometimes it is hidden characters, coming back into the story. But most importantly, I think, is how the main characters in the series see themselves, while they are going through their respective struggles. See Theon, Arya, and Sansa. Tyrion has a fake name in the east and he takes control and chooses a different name; one that fits him better. Jon is offered the chance to become a Stark but chooses to remain a Snow. I think this is all connected. There may or may not be a big reveal or two with a character coming back from "perceived" dead, but if it happened it will have something to do with identity, and self awareness. Yes, I like this idea. We see it with Dany, too, with the move from Stormborn to the Khaleesi to the Mother of Dragons to the Breaker of Chains to Mhysa. Clearly, there will be a reveal as someone reveals themselves to be someone else - someone long dead. Someone tall, good natured, scared of thunder and capable only of saying one word... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Joker Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Arthur Dayne's dead. That's an absolute fact. Qhorin was Qhorin. And no, Mance is not Rhaegar fucking Targaryen. People need to go find something more productive to do than waste everyone's time with absolutely terrible theories. *bows down* THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The onion wight Posted May 27, 2014 Author Share Posted May 27, 2014 The "levels" of dead is important. Many people has to pretend to be dead to save their necks: Brandon, Rickon, Davos. But they are eventually revealed to be alive and well.Some others have deaths "open": Theon, Connington, Sandor. It's not spelled out but it's almost a given that they never died. (it's like a rule in fiction: no witness, no body: alive)Some others return via magic: Berric, Cat, Gregor, and here is a problem. Not everybody can perform such resuscitation, so, that's why only Berric and Cat (and probably Jon, a major character) are returning. And maybe Gregor never died. Maybe there was a way to "transplant" his head or making him walk and function without one. GRRM doesn't simply kill a person and at the next episode says "look! I'm fine!" just because. There are reasons.Perhaps you'd like to point to where in the text it says Arthur Dayne is killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowen Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Whilst I don't Thin Arthur Dayne survived I've always struggled with him dying knowing how bad ass he was,I came to the conclusion that as Rheagar died on the Trident and Ned was at the ToJ maybe he did a Ben Kenobi and let himself be killed as the game was up so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Back in the late 90's/early '00's, I was convinced that Arthur Dayne was alive and would be revealed in a later book. I believed this because the ToJ is the best mystery in the series, Dayne was a badass, and he was mentioned so often (nearly as much as Rhaegar) I figured Martin was keeping him fresh in our minds for a reason. Mostly I believed this because he paralleled a character from Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, which inspired GRRM to write ASOIAF. Nowadays I think that Martin probably flirted with the idea, and maybe even planned to do it, but the story has grown past that, and like the five year gap, was scrapped. Which is fine. Barristan Selmy has filled the old badass knight role quite well, so not having Dayne around isn't so bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Araujo da Costa Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 Ser Arthur Dayne is actually Elvis. He went into hiding, got fatter, dresses up as himself and puts on shows at the Stony Sept brothel, doing cover versions of his duel with the Smiling Knight using a polished copper sword instead of Dawn. It's sad, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooseHB Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Arthur Dayne's dead. That's an absolute fact. Qhorin was Qhorin. And no, Mance is not Rhaegar fucking Targaryen. People need to go find something more productive to do than waste everyone's time with absolutely terrible theories. I have a real problem with this. This is dismissive. Here's why: OP: I have a theory: Premise Supporting detail Supporting detail Premise Supporting detail Supporting detail Supporting detail Premise Supporting detail Supporting detail Supporting detail Conclusion Rebuttal: Your theory is wrong: <Crickets> If there is a place in the text of any of the books where someone with first-hand knowledge, or even second-hand, states that Arthur Dayne is dead, then quote it. Otherwise, "Arthur Dayne's dead. That's an absolute fact," is about as meaningful as "It is known." Ultimately, GRRM knows, and theoretically, he's going to share that knowledge eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrettyPig Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I have a real problem with this. This is dismissive. Here's why: OP: I have a theory: Premise Supporting detail Supporting detail Premise Supporting detail Supporting detail Supporting detail Premise Supporting detail Supporting detail Supporting detail Conclusion Rebuttal: Your theory is wrong: <Crickets> I'm still trying to work through this protocol, myself - clearly there are some crackpots and highly unlikely/stupid theories that can be discussed ad naueseam without much supporting detail or textual evidence needed, but there are other topics that are apparently verboten even with the inclusion of supporting detail/textual evidence. Granted, I am still new and don't know the dynamic or the history, but I gotta say, it's confusing as hell to try and figure out what can be talked about, and if something can't be talked about, why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C0bR Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Howland and probably Wylla, would be my guess. Howland and Ned were the only survivors, as Ned thinks to himself: good, this is clearly an inconclusive evidence as has been noted many times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of Jon Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 IMO Arthur Dayne became The Halfhand to protect / assist Mance Rayder who was really Rhaegar. Very complicated other threads have contributed many pages of fierce debates on the subject. All I will say to convince anyone at the moment is think of each character in bigger picture. Dayne is revered as an incredible knight and warrior who was chivalrous and without equal - a Kingsguard through and through. Qhorin, the greatest ranger in the Watch, a swordsman without equal, completely devoted. We do not really SEE either character prove their worth in combat. It is only implied that there are so talented. Qhorin's mission was to bring Jon as close as possible to Mance (theoretically Rhaegar). He even died in the attempt. If the theory is true, one can see why a Kingsguard would give up his life if it would help bring Rhaegar's son to him. I know most of you will hate it.... Mostly This. I'm in the camp of Mance = Rhaegar, Qhorin = Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ned knew about it, and helped set it up. Which to respond to the OP means that Arthur Dayne is not alive because Jon and Ghost killed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GERM Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I didn't read the whole thread. If Dayne lived, that would make the count of cairns they built wrong. We'd be missing a dead person; they definitely brought Lyanna north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of the Falls Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Holand Reed , Ned, and his promise to Lyanna left the tower together. It would be awesome if Authur Dayne was alive but I doubt it. They're would be no need to return his sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 If there is a place in the text of any of the books where someone with first-hand knowledge, or even second-hand, states that Arthur Dayne is dead, then quote it. Otherwise, "Arthur Dayne's dead. That's an absolute fact," is about as meaningful as "It is known." Eddard Stark, in his own thoughts: "They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. Ten combatants, eight dead men, Dayne among them. Explicitly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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