Arthur Dayne lives

[The onion wight]

Felt the need to post at long last. Very obvious question that I'm sure has been asked many times before, but in GoT when Ned is in the crypts chatting to Robert he has a flashback to when his sister died

"The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sisters eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. I bring her flowers when I can, he said. Lyanna was fond of flowers."

So who are 'they' exactly? I thought only Howland Reed and Ned walked out of the ToJ alive? This says there was more than just Reed present. And yes I am a believer that Ser Arthur lives. If there's an obvious explanation then apologies in advance, I'm new to the boards :)

[FittleLinger]

Felt the need to post at long last. Very obvious question that I'm sure has been asked many times before, but in GoT when Ned is in the crypts chatting to Robert he has a flashback to when his sister died

"The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sisters eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. I bring her flowers when I can, he said. Lyanna was fond of flowers."

So who are 'they' exactly? I thought only Howland Reed and Ned walked out of the ToJ alive? This says there was more than just Reed present. And yes I am a believer that Ser Arthur lives. If there's an obvious explanation then apologies in advance, I'm new to the boards :)

Yes, it's most likely Wylla the wetnurse.

[The_Crannogman]

One belief is it is Wylla or some other servant who would be working at TOJ as Lyanna and the 3 KG would need some help

Another theory is that it was a squire of one of the 3 KG such as Gerold Dayne due to the fact that Doran calls him 'the most dangerous man in Dorne' and this may be due to the knowledge he posses and not his fighting skill as he couldn't kill Myrcella

I do believe that Arthur Dayne is alive though and I would point you in the direction of http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99024-lord-dustins-bones-arthur-dayne-being-alive/
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

[Maester Pedant]

He does live... forever in our hearts.

Surely Lyanna, a woman who likely had just given birth, or, at the very least, was very ill, was not alone at the tower of joy with 3 Kingsguards. There were other people there, such as servants. That's who "they" were.

[The onion wight]

He does live... forever in our hearts.

Surely Lyanna, a woman who likely had just given birth, or, at the very least, was very ill, was not alone at the tower of joy with 3 Kingsguards. There were other people there, such as servants. That's who "they" were.

Thanks for the responses. So basically GRRM is leaving a door open to pull out any available character to make the big reveal that R+L=J? And while I take on board what you're saying it's also true that there's nothing in the text to tell us one way or another? All we have from Neds flashbacks is that he rocked up with his posse, had a chat with Ser Arthur and Co, fight ensues, he sees his sister die and leaves with HR. No mention of any servants or wet nurses, which begs the question why doesn't GRRM mention them?

One belief is it is Wylla or some other servant who would be working at TOJ as Lyanna and the 3 KG would need some help

Another theory is that it was a squire of one of the 3 KG such as Gerold Dayne due to the fact that Doran calls him 'the most dangerous man in Dorne' and this may be due to the knowledge he posses and not his fighting skill as he couldn't kill Myrcella

I do believe that Arthur Dayne is alive though and I would point you in the direction of http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99024-lord-dustins-bones-arthur-dayne-being-alive/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

I think he is too. Thanks for the links will def read :)

[The onion wight]

One belief is it is Wylla or some other servant who would be working at TOJ as Lyanna and the 3 KG would need some help

Another theory is that it was a squire of one of the 3 KG such as Gerold Dayne due to the fact that Doran calls him 'the most dangerous man in Dorne' and this may be due to the knowledge he posses and not his fighting skill as he couldn't kill Myrcella

I do believe that Arthur Dayne is alive though and I would point you in the direction of http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99024-lord-dustins-bones-arthur-dayne-being-alive/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

Ser Arthur as Mance? And damn if it doesn't make some kind of sense. Brilliant lol

[Maester Pedant]

Thanks for the responses. So basically GRRM is leaving a door open to pull out any available character to make the big reveal that R+L=J? And while I take on board what you're saying it's also true that there's nothing in the text to tell us one way or another? All we have from Neds flashbacks is that he rocked up with his posse, had a chat with Ser Arthur and Co, fight ensues, he sees his sister die and leaves with HR. No mention of any servants or wet nurses, which begs the question why doesn't GRRM mention them?

I think he is too. Thanks for the links will def read :)

Perhaps he is, perhaps he's not. As far as we know at the moment, R+L=J is just speculation, regardless of how plausible. There is no reason to believe Arthur Dayne is alive. A pronoun is not enough grounds to support the theory that he is. I think Ned's flashback does not mention them because they don't merit any mention. They were there, but they were not important for what really mattered: the death of the 3 Kingsguards and Ned's final moments with Lyanna.

And if we're going to discuss what is not mentioned in Ned's flashback, then we should probably start with the elephant in the room: baby Jon himself. If the fact that Ned does not mention servants is an argument against this interpretation of the meaning of the "they", then the fact that he does not mention a baby is a very strong argument against R+L=J.

[The Snark of Winterfell]

Onion Wight, I like this theory. There are a lot of questions about why Ned returned Dawn to House Dayne, when it was South and he was going North. Also how Ned and Howland were able to defeat Arthur as well, bc by all accounts Arthur Dayne would have sliced the two of them in half. Wylla was there who worked for the Daynes.

There is a chance that Arthur, when Lyanna was crying out Ned's name and that she was dying, that Arthur knowing the noble Ned was kin to the child and that he was honorable enough to keep such a big secret and Howland Reed is a crag who has never been seen from again could also keep a secret.

I think the passage screams R-L=J personally, she was only able to die after she got his honorable Ned's word. Whatever it was it was big, bc it sent Ned into a fog (also the fact that his sister died, i get that), and I think it presumably involves Rhaegar.

But who knows, maybe Jon is dead and none of this means anything.

[The_Crannogman]

Ser Arthur as Mance? And damn if it doesn't make some kind of sense. Brilliant lol

The only thing going against him being mance is that apparently mance was brought to the wall as a child and he grew up there. He could obviously be any other mysterious character or good swordsman such as Qhorin Half-hand or the hooded man of winterfell, who knows who he is now or when he will appear but I like the idea that he is working with Howland Reed either chilling in the neck or doing jobs for him such as the HM.

[joluoto2]

The staff at ToJ. That's they.

[The onion wight]

The staff at ToJ. That's they.

What staff? The staff that we've decided should have been there even though Ned doesn't think about any of them at all, not even a little bit, even though he thinks about his banner men, the KG, HR and his sister. Why has GRRM left these mythical staff out of the text? Because they're unimportant? If R+L=J is true then these staff, whoever they are, are very very important to the story. If there were staff members present as witnesses then more than just HR knows of the events, if there weren't any staff then 'they' were either KG or Ned's banner men.

The only thing going against him being mance is that apparently mance was brought to the wall as a child and he grew up there. He could obviously be any other mysterious character or good swordsman such as Qhorin Half-hand or the hooded man of winterfell, who knows who he is now or when he will appear but I like the idea that he is working with Howland Reed either chilling in the neck or doing jobs for him such as the HM.

Yeah I'm a tad skeptical about the Mance theory. The main supporting evidence seems to be that Mance is a badass fighter and Ser Arthur was a badass fighter so they must be the same man. I'd love for Ser Arthur to be a known character, be just like GRRM to make a big reveal. Damn I hope he's alive, love that guy even though we've never experienced him in the books.

[Fat Mac]

What staff? The staff that we've decided should have been there even though Ned doesn't think about any of them at all, not even a little bit, even though he thinks about his banner men, the KG, HR and his sister. Why has GRRM left these mythical staff out of the text? Because they're unimportant? If R+L=J is true then these staff, whoever they are, are very very important to the story. If there were staff members present as witnesses then more than just HR knows of the events, if there weren't any staff then 'they' were either KG or Ned's banner men.

Well Ned also doesn't think "the boy I'm posing as my bastard is actually my sister's son with the former Crown prince" so that argument doesn't really make sense.

Wylla is mentioned, and she might have been the only other one on the scene. Even if there were more, it wouldn't be necessary for them to cross Ned's mind all the time. Especially given the other people in the scenario.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't believe that Artur is alive but if he was this is why I would believe that he could be.

[Fireball07]

I'm sorry, it doesn't make any sense for Dayne or any of the KG to be alive.

[The Bittersteel]

He's definitely dead I think. There's something about asoiaf which makes people see characters returning everywhere

[Suzanna Stormborn]

He's definitely dead I think. There's something about asoiaf which makes people see characters returning everywhere

lol maybe it's because they do return everywhere

Cat

Beric

Aegon had his head bashed in, now there's a kid claiming to be him.

Jon in WoW

All the Ironborn who are part of Aeron's drowned men

Brynden Rivers

The Mountain

People missing, presumed dead, who may come back at some point.

Benjen

Howland

Gerion Lannister

Pate

Arya

Mance

Sansa

JonCon

Shiera Seastar

The Hound

People who are basically definitely dead but fans still think they are alive

Rhaegar

Ashara

Ned

Aerys

Arthur Dayne

Lyanna

Balon Greyjoy

So I can understand why some posters are confused or uncertain about death as a finality in ASOIAF.

[sj4iy]

No, I don't think he's alive. Ned wouldn't have walked away if Dayne or any of the other KG were.

[Pigeon Pie]

One belief is it is Wylla or some other servant who would be working at TOJ as Lyanna and the 3 KG would need some help

Another theory is that it was a squire of one of the 3 KG such as Gerold Dayne due to the fact that Doran calls him 'the most dangerous man in Dorne' and this may be due to the knowledge he posses and not his fighting skill as he couldn't kill Myrcella

I do believe that Arthur Dayne is alive though and I would point you in the direction of http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99024-lord-dustins-bones-arthur-dayne-being-alive/

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

Or it could be just a maester. If Rhae knew that Lyanna was pregnant when he had left (and he must have) then he surely hired a maester to take care of her as a part of her household (or in this case, towerhold lol)

[HoboJed]

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away

Okay, so the important parts here:

• "seven against three" - ten fighters in total

"only two had lived to ride away" - could either mean two of the seven, or two of all ten (or even two of the three, but that seems highly unlikely)

"used its bloody stones to build eight cairns" - eight cairns implies eight bodies.

So, the only way it is feasible that Arthur Dayne is still alive is if "only two" meant of Eddard and his men (leaving the fate of the Kingsguard unmentioned), and if Eddard had made cairnes to any surviving Kingsguard to hide their fate...

... it's possible that Arthur Dayne is still alive, but that is a pretty big stretch, and I can't imagine it would add anything to the story.

[King Jaime Lannister]

IMO Arthur Dayne became The Halfhand to protect / assist Mance Rayder who was really Rhaegar. Very complicated other threads have contributed many pages of fierce debates on the subject.

All I will say to convince anyone at the moment is think of each character in bigger picture. Dayne is revered as an incredible knight and warrior who was chivalrous and without equal - a Kingsguard through and through. Qhorin, the greatest ranger in the Watch, a swordsman without equal, completely devoted.

We do not really SEE either character prove their worth in combat. It is only implied that there are so talented.

Qhorin's mission was to bring Jon as close as possible to Mance (theoretically Rhaegar). He even died in the attempt. If the theory is true, one can see why a Kingsguard would give up his life if it would help bring Rhaegar's son to him.

I know most of you will hate it....