Heresy 117

[Kyll.Ing.]

I don't think the riddle is specific. Here's part of what Tyrion tells Brown Ben Plumm regarding how he knows Dany's dragons would have liked him:

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"Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons, dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes ... nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why."

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Sounds like a bit of background Martin has yet to reveal...

Bit of background? I think you're mistaken on that part, since it looks a lot more like an easter egg to me. Read that quote again. It's a reference to The Hobbit, where there is a big talking dragon hoarding gold and gems, having four legs, a huge belly, and making riddles. I think that quote is just Martin's way of saying "My dragons are different".

[MaesterSam]

Truman used nukes twice on Japan, so we know there was plenty of uranium available to use it on Korea, Vietnam, various unsavory adventures in Central and South America, Iraq and Afghanistan, how come we didn't use it again?

Magic generally has a price. There is also strong suggestions that magic is a finite resource. Using the hammer of the water does not indicate that they could keep using magic like that, it may very well be that using the hammer of the waters meant they couldn't do any magic for a long while, because they'd depleted their armory to use it.

There's also the thought that the Night's Watch oath is an execution ceremony, that all members of the Night's Watch are supposed to say their vows at a heart tree, be sacrificed there, and become a Walker. Or maybe a wight, The night's watch wears black because it's part of the truce terms so that they are still visible to men. That's why the thirteen walkers in the end of S4E4 were all wearing Night's Watch Black.

1) We didn't use nukes after WW2 b/c it's morally wrong to kill so many innocents, and the world community would disapprove. In the case of Children vs Andals, it would have been self defense. I'm sure you would agree that if another country attacked the US mainland and was winning, driving all of us across the Canadian border, that they would eat some nukes before we would just give up and let our race die out.

2) I do like this explanation. Kind of like Mel can't make unlimited shadow babies with the same man. Still... IIRC, they used the Hammer once against the FM (on the arm of Dorne), then the Long Night occurred sometime later, and the second Hammer was used after the Andals arrived, to try to sever the Neck. So the WW had been tried and proven extremely effective, while the Hammer did not accomplish its purpose either time. Why not stick with a weapon guaranteed to work? Again, I know it seems like an extreme weapon, but these were invaders taking over the entire continent and about to drive the species to extinction...

I think the point I am trying to make is I don't think the Children really can control the WW. They start out human; it wouldn't surprise me if it was human sorcery/magic that created them (maybe even by accident?). Maybe the Last Hero was a human greenseer like Bran, and he had to find the Children so they could teach him how to control the WW. Or not. I just feel like if the Children had this power they would not be hiding behind a Wall in a frozen land waiting to die out.

3) VERY cool idea! Maybe the original NW brothers were WW - humans altered to be more effective in cold conditions. Perfect ice warriors.... There's the parallel with Robert Strong, who also was turned into a superhuman fighter using magic. (I don't think they would have been wights, b/c the oath says "it shall not end until my death" so it's unlikely they were killed immediately after saying it. Sounds like death does end it. But turning into WW.... very possible.Then again, if the NW are the WW...who are they defending the Wall against?)

“Her king is missing.” Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second

sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. “The horselords built

wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.”

Why did the Dothraki leave one Sphinx behind? I think we would expect the Dothraki to either take both or take one and destroy the other. If the Sphinxes are part Stallion though they might have had some respect for whatever the Sphinxes symbolize.

They took the male Sphinx and later they provided the male part for the rebirth of dragons.

Perhaps the male and female sphinxes were not identical? Maybe the male had something about it the Dothraki identified with (mane or whatever, any difference from the female would be a clue), so that's why they only took that one?

If it is nothing more than a border, why built a 700' tall wall? Wouldn't a simple hedge, fence, or row of stakes serve?

GRRM's writing style usually reveals plots & reasoning that are more developed than a 700' tall wall simply marking a border.

Good point. Really, it seems like an exaggerated barrier regardless of who the enemy is - since it's warded and the WW/wights presumably can't cross anyway. So yes, a row of stakes should have served as well, so long as magic prevents crossing of WW.

So we don't really have an explanation for why they felt the need to build such a huge structure... which means it may have been intended for some other purpose besides protecting the 'realms of men' against WW (or wildlings, for that matter. They are not a big enough threat to justify such extravagant defenses).

[addicted to snow]

GRRM's choice of wording is rather unclear considering you didn't actually quote GRRM. Here is the actual quote you're looking for....

“I shall not see Oldtown again. I know that now.” The old man tightened his grip on Sam’s arm. “I will be with my brothers soon. Some were bound to me by vows and some by blood, but they were all my brothers. And my father … he never thought the throne would pass to him, and yet it did. He used to say that was his punishment for the blow that slew his brother. I pray he found the peace in death that he never knew in life. The septons sing of sweet surcease, of laying down our burdens and voyaging to a far sweet land where we may laugh and love and feast until the end of days … but what if there is no land of light and honey, only cold and dark and pain beyond the wall called death?”

Thanks for reiterating that… I believe that I too noted that the quote was far from accurate, but it was the best I could manage being dyslexic as hell...

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Did Maester Aemon just say the last sentence of that quote off the top of his head - randomly? That's how I took it the first 100 times that I heard it.

Or did Maester Aemon say "Only cold & dark & pain beyond the wall of death" because he is familiar with a belief of a frozen hell in the heart of winter? The same "frozen hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell" that Ned once considered.

Let me be clear that the words I am focusing on are: "only cold and dark and pain beyond the wall called death..."

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GRRM boasts that he thinks about each & every word that he writes… There is probably nothing to this, but GRRM could be hinting that Maester Aemon was familiar with 'Stark Lore'… Either way, we will more than likely never know...

[addicted to snow]

So I was thinking about, "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" and "the Last Hero". What if the conveniently numbered fellowship that left to seek the CotF were the chiefs of the mountain clans among them, The Stark? So the LH/Stark finds the cave-dwelling, tree-huggers and begs for their help. Of course they say, but at a price. They offer The Stark a way for his blood, his house, to survive. They must give up one son every generation and in return the singers would guide The Stark to a place where they would be safe from the winter. With little choice he agrees and the singers lead him through an elaborate and lengthy cave system emerging at what is now, Winterfell. The hot spring would keep House Stark safe from any winter. The Stark builds first a wooden hall then probably some sort of motte & bailey structure then stone etc etc.

"There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" - Two possibilities.

1- The Stark asked for this as part of the deal struck with the singers it ensures the bloodline by allowing the sacrifice to skip a generation if only one son is born and grows to manhood.

2 - The singers include this addendum to the deal for reasons unknown threatening dire consequences if Winterfell should be ruled by anyone other than the Starks. The singers then induce Bran to break this proviso when he & Rickon leave at the end of aCoK. that's about the time winter starts rolling in right?

I think that "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" has something to do with the Others, not necessarily the Children of the Forest… Could be wrong though...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler

Perhaps he's left us an Easter Egg, and he literally means the Riddle of the Sphinx:

Sophocles version:

"What goes on four feet in the morning, two feet at noon, and three feet in the evening?"

Athenaeus's version:

"A thing there is whose voice is one;

Whose feet are four and two and three.

So mutable a thing is none

That moves in earth or sky or sea.

When on most feet this thing doth go,

Its strength is weakest and its pace most slow."

Oedipus (who killed his father and married his mother), was the one that answered the riddle, and the answer was "Man", because humans are born as babies and first crawl on all fours, then walk on two legs, then walk with a can in old age.

Of course, the interesting thing is that "woman" is just as valid an answer.

Then there's Emerson's adaptation:

The Sphinx

Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

The Sphinx is drowsy,

Her wings are furled:

Her ear is heavy,

She broods on the world.

"Who'll tell me my secret,

The ages have kept?--

I awaited the seer

While they slumbered and slept:--

"The fate of the man-child,

The meaning of man;

Known fruit of the unknown;

Daedalion plan;

Out of sleeping a waking,

Out of waking a sleep;

Life death overtaking;

Deep underneath deep?

"Erect as a sunbeam,

Unspringeth the palm;

The elephant browses,

Undaunted and calm;

In beautiful motion

The thrush plies his wings;

King leaves of his covert,

Your silence he sings.

"The waves, unashamed,

In difference sweet,

Play glad with the breezes,

Old playfellows meet;

The journeying atoms,

Primordial wholes,

Firmly draw, firmly drive,

By their animate poles.

"Sea, earth, air, sound, silence,

Plant, quadruped, bird,

By one music enchanted,

One deity stirred,--

Each the other adorning,

Accompany still;

Night veileth the morning,

The vapor the hill.

"The babe by its mother

Lies bathed in joy;

Glide its hours uncounted,--

The sun is its toy;

Shines the peace of all being,

Without cloud, in its eyes;

And the sum of the world

In soft miniature lies.

"But man crouches and blushes,

Absconds and conceals;

He creepeth and peepeth,

He palters and steals;

Infirm, melancholy,

Jealous glancing around,

An oaf, an accomplice,

He poisons the ground.

"Out spoke the great mother,

Beholding his fear;--

At the sound of her accents

Cold shuddered the sphere:--

'Who, has drugged my boy's cup?

Who, has mixed my boy's bread?

Who, with sadness and madness,

Has turned my child's head?'"

I heard a poet answer

Aloud and cheerfully

"Say on, sweet Sphinx! thy dirges

Are pleasant songs to me.

Deep love lieth under

These pictures of time;

They fade in the light of

Their meaning sublime.

"The fiend that man harries

Is love of the Best;

Yawns the pit of the Dragon,

Lit by rays from the Blest.

The Lethe of Nature

Can't trance him again,

Whose soul sees the perfect,

Which his eyes seek in vain.

"To vision profounder,

Man's spirit must dive;

His aye-rolling orb

At no goal will arrive;

The heavens that now draw him

With sweetness untold,

Once found,--for new heavens

He spurneth the old.

"Pride ruined the angels,

Their shame them restores;

Lurks the joy that is sweetest

In stings of remorse.

Have I a lover

Who is noble and free?--

I would he were nobler

Than to love me.

"Eterne alternation

Now follows, now flies;

And under pain, pleasure,--

Under pleasure, pain lies.

Love works at the centre,

Heart-heaving alway;

Forth speed the strong pulses

To the borders of day.

"Dull Sphinx, Jove keep thy five wits;

Thy sight is growing blear;

Rue, myrrh and cummin for the Sphinx,

Her muddy eyes to clear!"

The old Sphinx bit her thick lip,--

Said, "Who taught thee me to name?

I am the spirit, yoke-fellow;

Of thine eye I am eyebeam.

"Thou art the unanswered question;

Couldst see thy proper eye,

Always it asketh, asketh;

And each answer is a lie.

So take thy quest through nature,

It through thousand natures ply;

Ask on, thou clothed eternity;

Time is the false reply."

Uprose the merry Sphinx,

And crouched no more in stone;

She melted into purple cloud,

She silvered in the moon;

She spired into a yellow flame;

She flowered in blossoms red;

She flowed into a foaming wave:

She stood Monadnoc's head.

Thorough a thousand voices

Spoke the universal dame;

"Who telleth one of my meanings

Is master of all I am."

[Urrax2]

...Of course, the interesting thing is that "woman" is just as valid an answer.

...

Well, I think Sophocles's answer was "anthropos," Man as a human of either sex, rather than "aner," Man as a male human.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Bit of background? I think you're mistaken on that part, since it looks a lot more like an easter egg to me. Read that quote again. It's a reference to The Hobbit, where there is a big talking dragon hoarding gold and gems, having four legs, a huge belly, and making riddles. I think that quote is just Martin's way of saying "My dragons are different".

No mistake. Easter eggs are fun for readers - but the sphinx and the dragon are linked by enough in-story content for us to see that Martin has more to tell here for his own narrative. So that's what I mean by "background." Clearly Tyrion has read some things about the sphinx that have not yet been disclosed (to us). And Maester Aemon seems to have revealed the answer to a question or puzzle he knows - but that we have not encountered in the text. Together with the carved beasts we see in King's Landing, Oldtown, Essos, etc... it looks like Martin is setting up some intrigue for his future books - and eventually, I expect we'll get a bit more history on the meaning of the Sphinx in Planetos.

The Hobbit allusion is a great catch, though. :cheers:

Perhaps he's left us an Easter Egg, and he literally means the Riddle of the Sphinx:

Oedipus (who killed his father and married his mother), was the one that answered the riddle, and the answer was "Man", because humans are born as babies and first crawl on all fours, then walk on two legs, then walk with a can in old age.

Of course, the interesting thing is that "woman" is just as valid an answer.

Then there's Emerson's adaptation:

For my money,it's the Emerson poem that's most intriguing here. This is the poem discussed in the Emerson quote I posted above...

[wolfmaid7]

If it is nothing more than a border, why built a 700' tall wall? Wouldn't a simple hedge, fence, or row of stakes serve?

GRRM's writing style usually reveals plots & reasoning that are more developed than a 700' tall wall simply marking a border.

I have to disagree with this because it's not entirely correct.In the Wall edition of the project i had brought up a quote by GRRM that shed light on this. He said " The Wall took hundreds of years to complete and thousands of years to build". When the Wall was finished finished,it could have been only 100ft high,indicated by it being done in "hundreds of years". JNR brought up a good point about how the NK was able to spot the "Wight lady".It could have only happened if the Wall was considerably shorter.

The Thousands of years to build was because the NW kept adding to the already completed Wall to keep out the Wildlings who could climb it.It could have been a line of stones on the ground it would have accomplished its magical purpose,but it would do nothing to stop Wildlings.

GRRM's choice of wording is rather unclear considering you didn't actually quote GRRM. Here is the actual quote you're looking for....

“I shall not see Oldtown again. I know that now.” The old man tightened his grip on Sam’s arm. “I will be with my brothers soon. Some were bound to me by vows and some by blood, but they were all my brothers. And my father … he never thought the throne would pass to him, and yet it did. He used to say that was his punishment for the blow that slew his brother. I pray he found the peace in death that he never knew in life. The septons sing of sweet surcease, of laying down our burdens and voyaging to a far sweet land where we may laugh and love and feast until the end of days … but what if there is no land of light and honey, only cold and dark and pain beyond the wall called death?”

Nice, as this quote in totality could actually be anything other than "a cold hell for the Starks."

[Amoracchius]

Brown Ben Plumm claims to have some Targ blood, which would make the dragons take to him. I suspect he is descended from Nettles, who must have had some Targ blood too.

Brown Ben's Targ ancestry is pretty well established without needing to get Nettles involved. I'm curious, why do you think he is a descendant of Nettles?

[Urrax2]

Brown Ben's Targ ancestry is pretty well established without needing to get Nettles involved. I'm curious, why do you think he is a descendant of Nettles?

Pure speculation. Nettles was brown and a dragonrider/Targ, she could have passed both on to Brown Ben. She could have been the "dragon princess" whom a forebear married. Or she could be the "second drop"of dragon blood that Tyrion suspected. All speculation, or perhaps conjecture.

[Amoracchius]

Pure speculation. Nettles was brown and a dragonrider/Targ, she could have passed both on to Brown Ben. She could have been the "dragon princess" whom a forebear married. Or she could be the "second drop"of dragon blood that Tyrion suspected. All speculation, or perhaps conjecture.

Interesting, but I think Tyrion was referring to the story of Ossifer Plumm, whose wife gave birth to a son more than nine months after his death, resulting in the joke that he had "a cock six feet long." It seems likely that Ossifer's child was actually the product of an affair between his Targ wife and someone else in her family, hence Tyrion telling him that he either had "Two drops" of dragon blood, "or a cock six feet long."

[Urrax2]

Interesting, but I think Tyrion was referring to the story of Ossifer Plumm, whose wife gave birth to a son more than nine months after his death, resulting in the joke that he had "a cock six feet long." It seems likely that Ossifer's child was actually the product of an affair between his Targ wife and someone else in her family, hence Tyrion telling him that he either had "Two drops" of dragon blood, "or a cock six feet long."

That's certainly what it seems on the face of it. But GRRM has a way of fooling us. We'll see.

[addicted to snow]

Nice, as this quote in totality could actually be anything other than "a cold hell for the Starks."

Well, actually, reading the quote in it's entirety is great for understanding why Aemon & Sam were talking about death to begin with, but it has zero bearing on the thoughts that I presented regarding GRRM's word selection that is specific to the last line of Aemon's quote.

No matter how you break it down, these two quotes could be describing the same place (& the more I think about GRRM's writing style, they more than likely are):

"Frozen Hell"… Ned Stark

"cold & dark & pain beyond the wall called death"… Maester Aemon

Two ways of describing the same place… I wonder how Aemon could have come by this knowledge (Assuming that the Starks of Winterfell are all bound for some Frozen Hell - The Heart of Winter)?

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It is little things like this that make GRRM an exceptional writer… As of now, we don't know if it is a clue, and there is no way to prove that it is or is not some kind of hint / clue / foreshadowing. However after GRRM reveals that the Others are actually Starks (Dead Starks of Winterfell), we will be able to pick up on the clue & realize that Aemon was somehow familiar with the Stark Family Lore - Which could mean that Rheagar was aware of the Stark-Other connection & that opens a huge can of worms...

[addicted to snow]

I have to disagree with this because it's not entirely correct.In the Wall edition of the project i had brought up a quote by GRRM that shed light on this. He said " The Wall took hundreds of years to complete and thousands of years to build". When the Wall was finished finished,it could have been only 100ft high,indicated by it being done in "hundreds of years". JNR brought up a good point about how the NK was able to spot the "Wight lady".It could have only happened if the Wall was considerably shorter.

No need to nit-pick, Wolfmaid7, 100 ft or 700 ft, it makes no matter, I believe that my analysis still holds…

I don't think that you truly believe that GRRM imagined a wall of ice (however short or tall) & included it in this story because he wanted an interesting feature to mark a border?

Nope, there is more to The Wall (which is one of ASOIAF's more prominent intrigues) than just a border...

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I think that I will comment on JNR's past comment of the Night's King identifying beauty from atop the wall, which means that it could not have been 700' tall. This is an excellent observation on JNR's part, but I think that it could be irrational to assume that GRRM always thinks of this sort of thing… Just for the record, I have no opinion on the height of the wall at any given time & I cannot imagine that it will ever be important to the plot development.

[wolfmaid7]

No need to nit-pick, Wolfmaid7, 100 ft or 700 ft, it makes no matter, I believe that my analysis still holds…

I don't think that you truly believe that GRRM imagined a wall of ice (however short or tall) & included it in this story because he wanted an interesting feature to mark a border?

Nope, there is more to The Wall (which is one of ASOIAF's more prominent intrigues) than just a border...

--

I think that I will comment on JNR's past comment of the Night's King identifying beauty from atop the wall, which means that it could not have been 700' tall. This is an excellent observation on JNR's part, but I think that it could be irrational to assume that GRRM always thinks of this sort of thing… Just for the record, I have no opinion on the height of the wall at any given time & I cannot imagine that it will ever be important to the plot development.

What your saying doesn't make sense,you specifically questioned a 700ft Wall. I am telling you based on what GRRM said there was a point in which the Wall was done and all other additions had more to do with Wildlings than the Supernatural.

I don't think it was to mark a border,it was unclear what you were refferring to.

May i remind you.YOU were the one who commented on the height of the Wall in the first place, so you did have an opinion on it.

Now all of a sudden the height wouldn't be important in the future because your claim was dismissed by fact.......Seriously ATS you flip flop more often than the turns it takes to cook a pancake.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Oh hey, BTW... I found Lightbringer:

"Poetry is a sword of lightning, ever unsheathed, which consumes the scabbard that would contain it."

-- Percy Bysshe Shelley

:fencing:

[Phillip Frye]

3) VERY cool idea! Maybe the original NW brothers were WW - humans altered to be more effective in cold conditions. Perfect ice warriors.... There's the parallel with Robert Strong, who also was turned into a superhuman fighter using magic. (I don't think they would have been wights, b/c the oath says "it shall not end until my death" so it's unlikely they were killed immediately after saying it. Sounds like death does end it. But turning into WW.... very possible.Then again, if the NW are the WW...who are they defending the Wall against?)

I seem to recall Dolores Edd predicting something similar:

"Once they figure a way to work a dead horse, we'll be next. Likely I'll be the first too. 'Edd,' they'll say, 'dying's no excuse for laying down no more, so get on up and take this spear, you've got first watch tonight.' Well, I shouldn't be so gloomy. Might be I'll die before they work it out."

[Phillip Frye]

Oh hey, BTW... I found Lightbringer:

"Poetry is a sword of lightning, ever unsheathed, which consumes the scabbard that would contain it."

-- Percy Bysshe Shelley

:fencing:

In that case, Mance Rayder must be Azor Ahai.

[Phillip Frye]

What your saying doesn't make sense,you specifically questioned a 700ft Wall. I am telling you based on what GRRM said there was a point in which the Wall was done and all other additions had more to do with Wildlings than the Supernatural.

I don't think it was to mark a border,it was unclear what you were refferring to.

May i remind you.YOU were the one who commented on the height of the Wall in the first place, so you did have an opinion on it.

Now all of a sudden the height wouldn't be important in the future because your claim was dismissed by fact.......Seriously ATS you flip flop more often than the turns it takes to cook a pancake.

I agree that Woldmaid has the best of this argument with Addicted to Pancakes. Martin specifically stated that the Wall was much smaller when it was first raised, which makes it like something that delineates between one realm and another. I know that I am forgetting a word here. Wolfmaid, could you please help me out? What word am I forgetting?

[Phillip Frye]

However, that said, I remain doubtful that any efforts by the Lord Commanders ever increased the size of the Wall. I subscribe to the theory that it has been growing supernaturally, all on its own. Martin has also confirmed that the crushed gravel has not been increasing the size of the Wall. It is almost all ice.

BTW, I am aware of Jeor Mormont's statement that huge blocks of ice were raised by earlier Lord Commanders. That is myth.