Heresy 117

[Black Crow]

Just to interrupt, an interesting interview with GRRM's editor, Ann Groell link

We know that the producers of the TV show Game of Thrones know in broad strokes the ending of the main character arcs of a Song of Ice and Fire. Without giving anything away, do you know the ending, too?

No George is a very secretive fellow and guards his secrets well. I do know a few things from Winds of Winter, but mainly because we had to shorten a few elements in the book as it was already getting too long and he had to reveal a few secrets so I could help him redirect parts of the plot a bit. I do know the endpoint of Bran's story line - and Daniel Abraham who has been adapting the graphic novel of AGOT for me knows where Tyrion ends up [i am jealous of that]...

Endpoint of Bran's story line?

And with that enigma, I'm for bed, good night all.

[King Benjen II]

TWOW is already getting too long? Sounds like it's almost ready :)

This quote seems to hint Bran's story ends in TWOW, but it may be that the last bits were shifted into ADOS.

[lokisnow]

nah, the answer is easier than that:

Also, he has promised me that, when he finally wraps this great beast us, I can publish the five page letter outlining the bare bones of the “trilogy.” - See more at: http://universe.suvudu.com/q-and-a/anne-groell#.U4esnXL7c2y

Bran's storyline was probably revealed within that fave page letter outlining the trilogy. the story starts with him. and it ends with him.

[Harlan]

TWOW is already getting too long? Sounds like it's almost ready :)

This quote seems to hint Bran's story ends in TWOW, but it may be that the last bits were shifted into ADOS.

I think the book the editor was referring to was ADWD. ADWD was getting too long so GRRM had his editor help him cut it down which including shifting some things to the Winds of winter. The Editor knows some things from winds of winter because those things he knows were supposed to be in ADWD. (He also has the 5 page outline.)

[Phillip Frye]

According to the Chapter where Jon was climbing the Wall (or possibly the preceding Jon Chapter), it is made out of huge blocks of Ice… Are you suggesting that these huge blocks of ice are slowly expanding or somehow multiplying?

I'm going to go with the Lord Commander on this one, who would probably know best… The Watch used to be better funded/manned/supported & in years past they had the men to spare to cut blocks of ice during the winter & stack then atop the wall. This is why the wall is equipped with the cranes or whatever they call them @ the wall.

So, is this the same Jon Snow who was unreliable at interrogating ignorant wildling women and failed to ask follow-up questions, but when he repeats something to himself that Jeor Mormont told him, then it's Gospel straight from Heaven?

[Phillip Frye]

As for the cranes, could an engineer chime in and tell us what the counterweight was for lifting "enormous blocks of ice"? Another, even more "enormous block of ice"? The entire Night's Watch in a tug of war with the block? I wonder how a wooden crane is going to hold up while lifting an "enormous block of ice"? I wonder whether it would fall apart and splinter under the stress.

How does one transport "enormous blocks of ice" from the lakes north of the Wall to the Wall without roads? While this is epic fantasy, the proponents of the other theory (the Wall's height was increased through manual labor), can't just say it was magic. Maybe Martin was just sloppy and didn't consider the engineering. It's not like he ever said the Wall was magical, or anything like that.

[Phillip Frye]

New to site and first time commenting so excuse me if this has been discussed before but why is it that the wights came in force against the nights watch at the fist of the first men but never came in force vs the wildling horde? I know maynce says they lost a lot of people on the way down but he never talks about them coming in the hundreds like they did at the fist. Theres lots of plausible reasons for the wights not attacking them en masse but i was wondering if anyone had a good answer to why they didnt?

The Others were herding the wildlings to the Wall. Picking off stragglers kept them moving in the right direction. The Night's Watch got in the way of the wildlings and were going to hinder their march or break them up, so the Others broke up the Night's Watch.

Edited to Add: I missed The Butcher Crow's reply while scanning through. Sorry, this is redundant.

[Phillip Frye]

What if Azor Ahai was simply the name that the early priests of R'hllor gave to the Last Hero as they watched him fighting the White Walkers/Wights/Ice Spiders in their glass candles, and they never got even all the way through Dorne.

Early priests of R'hllor? From appearances, the red religion has its HQ in Volantis, not Asshai. We don't see much evidence of it to the east of Volantis. No red priests with the Ghiscari. I don't recall seeing any in Qarth, either. R'hllor looks to be neo-Valyrian in origin to my eyes.

Edited to Add: This is not my theory. I can't recall who made these points before.

[Phillip Frye]

I agree with you on this TOJ,its the same with the Shrouded Lord and the Night's King story which seems eerily similar.These stories could be like the Sumerian Deluge told from the angles of other cultures and religions.Somethings have been adapted to suit the relevent culture,but all in all the core might be the same.

I think that we have a winner, here.

[Phillip Frye]

I understand your premise, I just don't agree with it. If it was the Valyrian Empire, why would the legend of AAR refer to it as the "cold breath of darkness"? Why wouldn't it just be called the Valyrian Empire?

It makes sense for the legend not to call it the Long Night, because that's a Westerosi name for "a time of great darkness". If there was going to be some great darkness in Essos for Azor to have overcome, I think it should have been introduced by now.

A second Long Night has been foreshadowed like crazy in the books, there's no such equivalent for Essos that I can find.

I agree with you that the legend of Azor Ahai goes back much farther than the Valyrian conquest of the Ghiscari. I know that the Valyrian-Ghiscari wars lasted a long time, but they wrapped up shortly before the Valyrian conquest of the Rhoyne (according to our most recent extract from the World Book), which was only one thousand years prior to ASOIAF. Azor Ahai seems to go much further back, even if we chop the "recorded five thousand years ago" down to size, per Hoster Blackwood.

[Phillip Frye]

I think you are looking for "demarcation" which not only refers to a boundary but also the limits of something.

I agree with this 100%,and will add as crazy as it may sound the Wall is a different sought of life.The language Martin uses when refering to it points to that.It has moods and the color changes to reflect,it defends itself (all observations by Jon) and it has a freaking hidden door that speaks and cries.

Yep that bugger is supernaturally growing.

Thank you. It's a demarcation, and hard to miss at that.

[Phillip Frye]

Getting back to cranes (what can I say? I loved playing with construction toys as a little boy.), they would be extremely useful in carrying large loads, smaller than "enormous blocks of ice" quarried out of lakes, such as the gravel, building equipment, and siege engine parts to be used on top of the Wall.

In fact, I seem to recall that some of the cranes or siege engines were abandoned and half-buried in the Wall. I wonder if they were buried by the "enormous blocks of ice" that they had hauled up from seven hundred feet below?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Thank you for pointing out the hair color changes of Theon and Lancel. I'd forgotten about that. I've also frequently wondered if Jon's hair would shift to white/silver, but I had nothing to base it on besides the parallels with Finn McCool. Not sure it will happen but, if it does, it might help him overcome some of the stigma of being "False Dmitri II."

My pleasure. And for what it's worth - the hair whitening and premature aging, etc, does seen to be connected with the process of death and rebirth/second life. Theon was thought dead (at one point even insists that his former self died), then returns to life with a new identity. Lancel experiences a spiritual/religious rebirth through confession and repentance. I don't think it's so far-fetched to imagine something similar happening in Jon's storyline.

[Ser Ma'am]

(snip)

I do know the endpoint of Bran's story line - and Daniel Abraham who has been adapting the graphic novel of AGOT for me knows where Tyrion ends up [i am jealous of that]...

Endpoint of Bran's story line?

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think this is particularly fascinating. What about Bran's story line specifically would an editor need to know? Any why would the graphic novel fellow need to know about Tyrion?

[JNR]

So, is this the same Jon Snow who was unreliable at interrogating ignorant wildling women and failed to ask follow-up questions, but when he repeats something to himself that Jeor Mormont told him, then it's Gospel straight from Heaven?

Jon personally sees the foundation blocks as he approaches the Wall in SoS.

Also, while climbing it, he observes how the blocks were imperfectly laid, so as to form horizontal ledges and vertical chimneys in the gaps. If the Wall wasn't built by men, it was done in such a way as to fool Jon from his vantage point a few inches away.

ETA: Those who consider the show as providing evidence for the world of the books should also consider that on the show, you can easily spot the layers of blocks when the Wall is seen from miles away.

[Mithras]

Bran's story line might end similar to Bran the Blessed's story.

[JNR]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think this is particularly fascinating. What about Bran's story line specifically would an editor need to know? Any why would the graphic novel fellow need to know about Tyrion?

Good questions.

Bran's storyline conclusion might be so closely tied to the overall series conclusion that it was part of the original five-page summary GRMM wrote. If as I suspect he echoes Brandon the Builder, that would make pretty good sense.

I also wonder if, since graphic novels are a visual medium, GRRM decided to drop some sort of visual clue about Tyrion's story that isn't in the books. Example: instead of Tyrion simply casting a large shadow... he casts a large shadow that has something in it that shouldn't be there.

More generally, I was not at all surprised to hear Anne Groell underscore just how important Keeping His Many Secrets is to GRRM. This is something I've stressed in the past too, and people have doubted, but I don't think they can any more.

[Ser Ma'am]

More generally, I was not at all surprised to hear Anne Groell underscore just how important Keeping His Many Secrets is to GRRM. This is something I've stressed in the past too, and people have doubted, but I don't think they can any more.

That caught my eye as well, for a lot of reasons. I've always thought that the concept of knowing was a crucial aspect of GRRM's series. It's a major thematic element, reflected in the way GRRM reveals knowledge to the reader. If those mysteries get revealed too early, it doesn't just "spoil" it for us, it undermines something about how GRRM is telling this story.

[Harlan]

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think this is particularly fascinating. What about Bran's story line specifically would an editor need to know? Any why would the graphic novel fellow need to know about Tyrion?

Maybe nothing. GRRM works with these people on a regular basis. It seems possible to me that they asked a bunch of questions, and he said "Well, fine. You get one question..." or something. GRRM is secretive about his story but he is still human. If people ask him questions, its human nature to answer them....

[Phillip Frye]

Jon personally sees the foundation blocks as he approaches the Wall in SoS.

Also, while climbing it, he observes how the blocks were imperfectly laid, so as to form horizontal ledges and vertical chimneys in the gaps. If the Wall wasn't built by men, it was done in such a way as to fool Jon from his vantage point a few inches away.

ETA: Those who consider the show as providing evidence for the world of the books should also consider that on the show, you can easily spot the layers of blocks when the Wall is seen from miles away.

Granted. Those are some pretty big blocks. Many times larger than the stones that make up the pyramids. How do you reckon they were set into place by men?