Three Shadows in Bran's Vision

[Minuteman]

I think the shadow identities are exactly who they appear to be: Sandor, Jaime, and unGregor. In the vision the shadows aren't doing anything other than looming over Ned and the Stark girls. Consider how the story arcs of Sandor, Jaime, and Gregor have in fact haunted the story arcs of the Ned and his daughters. Sandor is easy: he was there when Ned was betrayed and again when he died (which troubles Sandor later), the San-San threads need not be expounded on, and he ultimately brought Arya to the point where she could leave for Braavos. Jaime broke Ned's leg which kept him from departing KL on time ultimately leading to his death, Jaime was sent to be traded for Arya and Sansa, and left Brienne the means to continue her search for both. Ned dispatched Beric Dondarrion and company to bring Gregor to justice which led to the irrevocable break with the Lannisters and gave rise to the BwB. Gregor's men captured Arya only to lose her to the BwB and then to the Hound. There isn't any interraction with Sansa yet but I strongly suspect that unGregor will be Cersei's champion in a TBC involving Sansa and her accusation of regicide in Joffrey. So I think it would be fair to say that Sandor, Jaime, and Gregor/unGregor have been haunting Ned and his daughters through the entire series and will continue to do so until the end.

[Voice]

Because of the previosly used simbology Lanister-gold I think joffrey is the most likely candidate to be shadow 2. Bran sees Sansa and Arya very clearly, wich makes me assume that the shadows are people relevant to the events hapenning to them. Sandor being shadow 1 directly relates to Arya through Mikkenn. But who would Barristan relate to? Is kinda confusing to make him shadow 2 justo to serve as representation of honor and good. Seems more logic that the golden shadow is Joffrey because he's directly responsible for Sansa crying herself to sleep.

Joffrey is a very good candidate, I agree. Barristan relates to Bran. Or, perhaps I should say, Bran relates to Barristan. There is no knight he admires more, and he wants to be knight himself someday.

His admiration for Barristan really comes out in the following passage, Bran II AGOT, just before his fall, and his coma began. He was about to go see his lifelong hero. But was nearly killed instead. He couldn't go to the Trident himself. He had to watch from his third-eye's window. He saw his father and sisters surrounded by shadows. One had the terrible face of a hound, but no armor (not a knight). One was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful (armored like a knight), and the last was in armor made of stone, filled with blood (armored like a knight). Notice the contrast in the wording. While the first and third shadows are ominous, the second is not. If it were indeed Joffrey, it should be ominous as well (not only does he abuse Sansa, he orders his father's head stricken off), rather than beautiful. What would a seven year old Stark find beautiful? I think the answer is: honor, duty, honesty, loyalty, chivalry, and skill at arms. If you've read the D&E novellas, you will no doubt have noticed that GRRM often uses "a horse," "armor," and "earning your spurs," as symbols of knighthood. Bran feels he is on the cusp of attaining his, just before the fall. Here's the passage:

For days, Bran could scarcely wait to be off. He was going to ride the kingsroad on a horse of his own, not a pony but a real horse. His father would be the Hand of the King, and they were going to live in the red castle at King's Landing, the castle the Dragonlords had built. Old Nan said there were ghosts there, and dungeons where terrible things had been done, and dragon heads on the walls. It gave Bran a shiver just to think of it, but he was not afraid. How could he be afraid? His father would be with him, and the king with all his knights and sworn swords.

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another's swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

Two of the Kingsguard had come north with King Robert. Bran had watched them with fascination, never quite daring to speak to them. Ser Boros was a bald man with a jowly face, and Ser Meryn had droopy eyes and a beard the color of rust. Ser Jaime Lannister looked more like the knights in the stories, and he was of the Kingsguard too, but Robb said he had killed the old mad king and shouldn't count anymore. The greatest living knight was Ser Barristan Selmy, Barristan the Bold, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Father had promised that they would meet Ser Barristan when they reached King's Landing, and Bran had been marking the days on his wall, eager to depart, to see a world he had only dreamed of and begin a life he could scarcely imagine.

And remember this isn't Sansa's point of view. She's the only one who thinks Joffrey is beautiful. This is Bran's point of view, and for him, being a chivalrous, honorable, true-steel knight of the Kingsguard is his life's dream. He's about to meet the man he hopes to one day become...

I think the shadow identities are exactly who they appear to be: Sandor, Jaime, and unGregor.

If you read through the comments you'll see that "exactly who they appear to be" is a matter of opinion, and varies widely. If you re-read the chapter, I think you will rule out Jaime as the second shadow for yourself. Bran finds Jaime Lannister anything but beautiful.

In the vision the shadows aren't doing anything other than looming over Ned and the Stark girls.

Yes, I think you are due for a re-read. Only one shadow looms over them. The others are simply "around."

Consider how the story arcs of Sandor, Jaime, and Gregor have in fact haunted the story arcs of the Ned and his daughters. Sandor is easy: he was there when Ned was betrayed and again when he died (which troubles Sandor later), the San-San threads need not be expounded on, and he ultimately brought Arya to the point where she could leave for Braavos. Jaime broke Ned's leg which kept him from departing KL on time ultimately leading to his death, Jaime was sent to be traded for Arya and Sansa, and left Brienne the means to continue her search for both.

All true enough. But there are clear issues with Jaime.

The first, is that he leaves the Trident to search for the wolf, the butcher's boy, and Arya, long before Ned begins pleading with the king, and doesn't return to the king's party until long after. So he isn't even present at Castle Darry when these events are occurring.

The second, as mentioned, is Bran does not find Jaime beautiful.

The third, is that Jaime has already been accounted for, earlier in the dream.

Again, I think if you carefully re-read this chapter, you will rule Jaime out yourself. When Bran sees Jaime, he screams, and begins to fall faster. The Three Eyed Crow wants Bran to fly, and is showing him events to motivate him to hold on to life, and awaken because winter is coming.

Ned dispatched Beric Dondarrion and company to bring Gregor to justice which led to the irrevocable break with the Lannisters and gave rise to the BwB. Gregor's men captured Arya only to lose her to the BwB and then to the Hound.

I do not dismiss the events you describe, but do you really think that Beric Dondarrion going after the Mountain, the Mountain's men unknowingly capturing Arya and her eventual escape from them, cast him as a more ominous shadow looming over Ned and his family than Ser Ilyn Payne? ...Ser Ilyn Payne... who cuts off the direwolf's head in front of both of his daughters.

Again, I do not dismiss these events you've described, but there's no way they are more impactful upon the Starks than the actions of Ser Ilyn Payne.

There isn't any interraction with Sansa yet but I strongly suspect that unGregor will be Cersei's champion in a TBC involving Sansa and her accusation of regicide in Joffrey.

Serious problems with this.

First.... yes, there is zero interaction with Sansa. Sansa isn't even in King's Landing, and won't be, if this trial by combat ever takes place... Though it likely will take place, GRRM has surprised us before. Perhaps the valonqar will strangle Cersei before the combat ever occurs. So while we might suspect unGregor to be her champion (it's pretty obvious), that suspicion is not enough to base your argument on. But there is a bigger issue....

Respectfully, you are mistaken in the reason for the trial by combat. I mean no offense, but I think you are due for a reread as you are misremembering the reason for Cersei's trial. This trial does not involve Sansa, nor anything to do with Joffrey's regicide. No. Sansa is not on trial, nor does she have anything at all to do with it, nor does she have anything at all to do with the accusations against the queen. Cersei is on trial, her alone, for capital crimes of her own doing (the plot to frame Margaery for adultery and treason, seducing Osney kettleblack and having him give false witness against Margaery, all of which are discovered by the High Septon).

So I think it would be fair to say that Sandor, Jaime, and Gregor/unGregor have been haunting Ned and his daughters through the entire series and will continue to do so until the end.

Really? Sandor is dead, so I don't think he'll be bothering any Starks. Jaime has one hand, and hasn't posed a threat to House Stark since he pushed Bran out of the window. Robb whipped his whole host in one night, you will remember, and the Kingslayer hasn't been a threat to anyone since. He is a different man now. If anything, Catelyn Stark will be haunting him now. Gregor/unGregor, as demonstrated above, have little and less to do with the Starks. If you weigh the Mountain's actions against Ser Ilyn Payne's actions, I think this is pretty clear.

Sansa and Arya, on different occasions, had briefly glimpsed the Mountain, then went on with their lives.

Contrast this with the image of Ser Ilyn Payne looming over Ned at the Great Sept of Baelor, as Sansa weeps and Arya holds secrets in her heart. They are both present, watching their father plead with a king. It should also be noted that the Hound and Ser Barristan Selmy are also in attendance for this event. Arya notices that Ser Ilyn has Ice, her father's greatsword. And Sansa faints as the "King's Justice" cuts off their father's head.

No one has ever loomed over them the way Ser Ilyn loomed over them.

[TheLadyKnight]

Great points. Cersei and Joff are definitely worthy of consideration. Though, I remind you, Bran does not find them beautiful, and "armor" is something GRRM uses repeatedly to signify knights and knighthood.

I like the idea of the second shadow referring to House Lannister, though again, Bran would not find that one beautiful in such a case. It is a cool interpretation nonetheless though. :cheers: House Martell has zero impact on House Stark so I'd rule that one out.

Thanks. You obviously make some good ones yourself. :)

I noticed that you used Bran's age earlier in the topic (and also Brienne's gender) to argue against Cersei (i.e. Bran being a young boy and Brienne being attracted to Jaime), but I think you're trying to sexualize the beauty in those cases while not doing the same for Barristan. Why would it be impossible for Bran or Brienne to find Cersei beautiful when she's been called the most beautiful woman in Westeros? It doesn't have to be sexual in nature, just like it wouldn't be with Barristan.

That's my main quibble, though I'm also still not sold on "armored like the sun" being literal armor. I think it could be, but I don't think it has to be in that particular case.

Prophesies are tricksy hobbitses (woops, wrong fandom ;)).

[Slowpoke Martin]

rofl its pretty simple to grasp what Bran is seeing IS THE PRESENT not some stupid foreshadowing events.

LOL the people that bring up Oberyn as a shadow are incredibly retarded, THE GUY IS NO WHERE NEAR THEM!!!!!! So why the hell would anyone bring his name up???

OP I agree with you on who the shadows are and the reasons you give for them, most of these posters need to learn to read properly because their reading comprehension is absolutely terrible.

[Voice]

Thanks. You obviously make some good ones yourself. :)

I noticed that you used Bran's age earlier in the topic (and also Brienne's gender) to argue against Cersei (i.e. Bran being a young boy and Brienne being attracted to Jaime), but I think you're trying to sexualize the beauty in those cases while not doing the same for Barristan. Why would it be impossible for Bran or Brienne to find Cersei beautiful when she's been called the most beautiful woman in Westeros? It doesn't have to be sexual in nature, just like it wouldn't be with Barristan.

That's my main quibble, though I'm also still not sold on "armored like the sun" being literal armor. I think it could be, but I don't think it has to be in that particular case.

Prophesies are tricksy hobbitses (woops, wrong fandom ;)).

LOL :cheers:

My mention of Brienne was that she finds Jaime beautiful...not Cersei. I don't mean to sexualize the perception of Cersei's beauty, only draw attention to Bran's lack of interest in women at this point in the story, and his passionate interest in knighthood and honor.

Your quibble is quite valid in any case. Bran should be able to recognize a beautiful woman as beautiful even if he isn't motivated sexually.

My main objection to Cersei being the second shadow is Bran is falling, falling, still falling, faster and faster, the ground rushing ever upward towards him, just after seeing Cersei and Jaime together. It was a frightening experience for him, even before Jaime pushed him from the window. He realized the conversation he was overhearing wasn't for his ears. It sounded as if the man were hurting the woman... soft wet sounds. Then he looked. He saw the queen and her brother coupling together. The queen meets his eye and screams, "He saw us!" Bran loses his grip and a feeling of vertigo sweeps over him. Jaime rushes toward him and stops his fall.

These are the faces of death for Bran.

When I say he doesn't find Jaime and Cersei beautiful, I'm not trying to sexualize Cersei's beauty, or Jaime's for that matter. I am trying to illustrate that these faces hold only terror for our seven year old Bran. He loved to climb. He was going to be a knight himself someday. He saw the golden lion twins doing something that scared him, they scared him. Jaime scared him. Cersei scared him. He is still falling away from them... still filled with the fear they put in him... The Three Eyed Crow is trying to make him fly, but when he sees a golden face swim out of the mist, he begins to fall even faster.

Lo and behold, the 3EC begins to show Bran the realm, his home, his family, and the perils facing them. At the Trident, strangers surround his family. One looks to be armored like the sun, to Bran. Golden and beautiful, to Bran. He almost met him. He was going to depart that day on a real horse of his own. But he got tossed from a window instead. Cersei and Jaime are the personification of the end of Bran's normal boyhood, and the creators of Bran the Broken.

[Voice]

rofl its pretty simple to grasp what Bran is seeing IS THE PRESENT not some stupid foreshadowing events.

LOL the people that bring up Oberyn as a shadow are incredibly retarded, THE GUY IS NO WHERE NEAR THEM!!!!!! So why the hell would anyone bring his name up???

OP I agree with you on who the shadows are and the reasons you give for them, most of these posters need to learn to read properly because their reading comprehension is absolutely terrible.

No reason to speak ill of our fellow commenters Ser, but I am glad you can see what I see :cheers:

The debate is constructive. I admit that I sometimes think if folks would just do a quick reread of these chapters, a lot of the argument could be avoided. But I think it is good to hash it all out nonetheless.

For every comment made there are multiple lurkers thinking the same thing. And in addressing the debate, further details surface.

I don't want to force feed people my own interpretation, though it might seem that way at times LOL. Instead I hoped to add to the discussion my first-read interpretation that has only grown stronger with time. I've lost count of how many times I've read and listened to the series now, and I've yet to hear alternative candidates for these shadows that fit the descriptions nearly so well. Even at this point I remain open to other possibilities, but I think the text itself supports The Hound, Ser Barristan, and Ser Ilyn, far more than the alternatives presented in the essay at the Citadel.

[Modesty Lannister]

Nice OP. I used to think exactly like you. I even got more arguments as to why the third shadow was supposed to be Payne than you. However, I've changed my mind since.

Why?

Well, as you yourself so precisely and diligently listed, Bran's vision is about precise characters close to him doing certain things at a certain moment.

But, around them danger is looming.

- storm (Catelyn and Ser Roderick)

- something horrible beyond the curtain of light in the heart of winter (Jon)

- dragons (danger to everyone in that tableau)

- three shadows

I agree with the poster Naturally Low Highborn (I hope I got this right B) ) that shadows do not represent people. Why? Because, the vision names characters precisely and not all of them are Starks, so why would Bran describe some non-Stark characters as characters and the others as shadows? No, shadows represent more than characters. They are symbols of danger and/or omen.

Or, as Patchface would say:

"The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord."

Prologue - ACOK

So, what do the shadows represent?

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Bran III. AGOT

Shadow 1 (linked to Arya) - is neither Gregor, not Sandor. It is House Clegane. Both brothers will come to feature prominently on Arya's hit list. The Mountain and his soldiers will be responsible for the ordeal Arya went through from the moment she got separated from her family in KL to the moment she met BwB. After that, she will continue her journey with the Hound right up until the moment she goes to Braavos. So, her hardship in Westeros is directly linked to the House Clegane. By meeting them, her childhood ends and her trauma goes on and on. It does not mean that they necessarily caused the trauma. The Hound was with Arya during the Red Wedding and he saved her. It means that brothers Clegane are the presence that marks a forthcoming period of her life that will change her forever.

Shadow 2 (linked to Sansa) - are the Lannisters. At the moment of Bran's vision she is engaged to Joffrey, her dealings with queen Cersei will lead to her father's arrest and execution turning her into a hostage. Tywin will be ultimately responsible for Robb's death. Tyrion she will wed and his downfall will be her way out of captivity (parallel to dynamics between Arya and the Hound). And Jaime will send Brienne after her to protect her.

Shadow 3 (linked to both) - is the Titan of Braavos. Arya will start her education with Syrio. Sansa will start hers with Littlefinger. The former was the first sword of Braavos. The latter's family originates from Braavos, but his financial dealings are linked to Braavos (the IBoB) as is the false story of her growing up in the sept in Braavos as LF's daughter Alayne. But, when you look inside the Braavos connection there is only darkness and blood. No face. Just darkness and blood. Or Faceless Men of Braavos. They are looming over the shadows looming over Bran's sisters. In Arya's case it is easy to decipher why. She is becoming one. And she may yet get her revenge. In Sansa's case it is still not clear. Since the IBoB is sending the FM to punish those who default one can speculate (and at this stage of her arc that is all we can do) that LF may be the one sheltering FM in their missions in Westeros. I'd prefer not to speculate further, but I'd conclude that Sansa's arc may end up dealing with the FM in a different manner than Arya's. But, one may conclude that FM represent a clear and present danger to enemies of two Stark sisters.

ETA: Changes in the last paragraph.

[Voice]

I can already tell you, Modesty, that we will have to agree to disagree LOL

Bran would be the last person in Westeros to find "House Lannister" beautiful. The second shadow is someone Bran thinks is beautiful and golden, rather than a superficial stereotype of the Lannisters.

Last time I checked, the Titan of Braavos is across the Narrow Sea... It makes no sense whatsoever to see it at the Trident. Particularly when you consider that Bran looks across the Narrow Sea, at the Free Cities of Essos in the very next paragraph.

I understand your reasoning, but it is supported far more by conjecture than it is by text. Ilyn Payne is at the Trident, has just been denied the opportunity to behead a direwolf (by Ned), is silent as stone in his rough armor, and has a long history of blood. Braavos does not loom over Ned and his daughters like a giant. If anything, Braavos provides both of them with refuge. Ilyn Payne, on the other hand, is present not only at the Trident, but beheads Ned as he pleads with a king in front of both of his daughters.

AGOT references...

Bran I

So deep in thought was he that he never heard the rest of the party until his father moved up to ride beside him. "Are you well, Bran?" he asked, not unkindly.

"Yes, Father," Bran told him. He looked up. Wrapped in his furs and leathers, mounted on his great warhorse, his lord father loomed over him like a giant. "Robb says the man died bravely, but Jon says he was afraid."

"What do you think?" his father asked.

Bran thought about it. "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?"

"That is the only time a man can be brave," his father told him. "Do you understand why I did it?"

"He was a wildling," Bran said. "They carry off women and sell them to the Others."

His lord father smiled. "Old Nan has been telling you stories again. In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile. But you mistake me. The question was not why the man had to die, but why I must do it."

Bran had no answer for that. "King Robert has a headsman," he said, uncertainly.

"He does," his father admitted. "As did the Targaryen kings before him. Yet our way is the older way. The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks, and we hold to the belief that the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword. If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

Sansa I

One knight wore an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun. When he removed his helm, Sansa saw that he was an old man with hair as pale as his armor, yet he seemed strong and graceful for all that. From his shoulders hung the pure white cloak of the Kingsguard.

His companion was a man near twenty whose armor was steel plate of a deep forest-green. He was the handsomest man Sansa had ever set eyes upon; tall and powerfully made, with jet-black hair that fell to his shoulders and framed a clean-shaven face, and laughing green eyes to match his armor. Cradled under one arm was an antlered helm, its magnificent rack shimmering in gold.

At first Sansa did not notice the third stranger. He did not kneel with the others. He stood to one side, beside their horses, a gaunt grim man who watched the proceedings in silence. His face was pockmarked and beardless, with deepset eyes and hollow cheeks. Though he was not an old man, only a few wisps of hair remained to him, sprouting above his ears, but those he had grown long as a woman's. His armor was iron-grey chainmail over layers of boiled leather, plain and unadorned, and it spoke of age and hard use. Above his right shoulder the stained leather hilt of the blade strapped to his back was visible; a two-handed greatsword, too long to be worn at his side.

Sansa I (later in the same chapter)

There was general laughter, led by Lord Renly himself. The tension of a few moments ago was gone, and Sansa was beginning to feel comfortable … until Ser Ilyn Payne shouldered two men aside, and stood before her, unsmiling. He did not say a word. Lady bared her teeth and began to growl, a low rumble full of menace, but this time Sansa silenced the wolf with a gentle hand to the head. "I am sorry if I offended you, Ser Ilyn," she said.

She waited for an answer, but none came. As the headsman looked at her, his pale colorless eyes seemed to strip the clothes away from her, and then the skin, leaving her soul naked before him. Still silent, he turned and walked away.

Sansa did not understand. She looked at her prince. "Did I say something wrong, Your Grace? Why will he not speak to me?"

"Ser Ilyn has not been feeling talkative these past fourteen years," Lord Renly commented with a sly smile.

Joffrey gave his uncle a look of pure loathing, then took Sansa's hands in his own. "Aerys Targaryen had his tongue ripped out with hot pincers."

"He speaks most eloquently with his sword, however," the queen said, "and his devotion to our realm is unquestioned." Then she smiled graciously and said, "Sansa, the good councillors and I must speak together until the king returns with your father. I fear we shall have to postpone your day with Myrcella. Please give your sweet sister my apologies. Joffrey, perhaps you would be so kind as to entertain our guest today."

Eddard II

"The beast is chained up outside the gatehouse, Your Grace," Ser Barristan Selmy answered reluctantly.

"Send for Ilyn Payne."

"No," Ned said. "Jory, take the girls back to their rooms and bring me Ice." The words tasted of bile in his throat, but he forced them out. "If it must be done, I will do it."

Eddard VII

"You are the one she ought to fear," Ned said.

"No. I am what I am. The king makes use of me, but it shames him. A most puissant warrior is our Robert, and such a manly man has little love for sneaks and spies and eunuchs. If a day should come when Cersei whispers, 'Kill that man,' Ilyn Payne will snick my head off in a twinkling, and who will mourn poor Varys then? North or south, they sing no songs for spiders." He reached out and touched Ned with a soft hand. "But you, Lord Stark … I think … no, I know … he would not kill you, not even for his queen, and there may lie our salvation."

Eddard XI

"And Ser Ilyn?" The eunuch stroked a plump, powdered cheek. "He is the King's Justice, after all. Sending other men to do his office … some might construe that as a grave insult."

"No slight was intended." In truth, Ned did not trust the mute knight, though perhaps that was only because he misliked executioners. "I remind you, the Paynes are bannermen to House Lannister. I thought it best to choose men who owed Lord Tywin no fealty."

"Very prudent, no doubt," Varys said. "Still, I chanced to see Ser Ilyn in the back of the hall, staring at us with those pale eyes of his, and I must say, he did not look pleased, though to be sure it is hard to tell with our silent knight. I hope he outgrows his disappointment as well. He does so love his work …"

Sansa III

Sansa shuddered. Every time she looked at Ser Ilyn Payne, she shivered. He made her feel as though something dead were slithering over her naked skin. "Ser Ilyn's almost like a second monster. I'm glad Father didn't pick him."

Arya V

A thousand voices were screaming, but Arya never heard them. Prince Joffrey … no, King Joffrey … stepped out from behind the shields of his Kingsguard. "My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father." He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, "But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!"

The crowd roared, and Arya felt the statue of Baelor rock as they surged against it. The High Septon clutched at the king's cape, and Varys came rushing over waving his arms, and even the queen was saying something to him, but Joffrey shook his head. Lords and knights moved aside as he stepped through, tall and fleshless, a skeleton in iron mail, the King's Justice. Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit.

Arya wriggled between Baelor's feet and threw herself into the crowd, drawing Needle. She landed on a man in a butcher's apron, knocking him to the ground. Immediately someone slammed into her back and she almost went down herself. Bodies closed in around her, stumbling and pushing, trampling on the poor butcher. Arya slashed at them with Needle.

High atop the pulpit, Ser Ilyn Payne gestured and the knight in black-and-gold gave a command. The gold cloaks flung Lord Eddard to the marble, with his head and chest out over the edge.

"Here, you!" an angry voice shouted at Arya, but she bowled past, shoving people aside, squirming between them, slamming into anyone in her way. A hand fumbled at her leg and she hacked at it, kicked at shins. A woman stumbled and Arya ran up her back, cutting to both sides, but it was no good, no good, there were too many people, no sooner did she make a hole than it closed again. Someone buffeted her aside. She could still hear Sansa screaming.

Ser Ilyn drew a two-handed greatsword from the scabbard on his back. As he lifted the blade above his head, sunlight seemed to ripple and dance down the dark metal, glinting off an edge sharper than any razor. Ice, she thought, he has Ice! Her tears streamed down her face, blinding her.

Sansa VI

The serving girls tried to talk to her when they brought her meals, but she never answered them. Once Grand Maester Pycelle came with a box of flasks and bottles, to ask if she was ill. He felt her brow, made her undress, and touched her all over while her bedmaid held her down. When he left he gave her a potion of honeywater and herbs and told her to drink a swallow every night. She drank it all right then and went back to sleep.

She dreamt of footsteps on the tower stair, an ominous scraping of leather on stone as a man climbed slowly toward her bedchamber, step by step. All she could do was huddle behind her door and listen, trembling, as he came closer and closer. It was Ser Ilyn Payne, she knew, coming for her with Ice in his hand, coming to take her head. There was no place to run, no place to hide, no way to bar the door. Finally the footsteps stopped and she knew he was just outside, standing there silent with his dead eyes and his long pocked face. That was when she realized she was naked. She crouched down, trying to cover herself with her hands, as her door began to swing open, creaking, the point of the greatsword poking through …

She woke murmuring, "Please, please, I'll be good, I'll be good, please don't," but there was no one to hear.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

"I can't fly," Bran said. "I can't, I can't . . . "

How do you know? Have you ever tried?

This is pretty much the EXACT thing Euron says to Victarion on the Shield Isles drinking shade of the evening, and he says it less like it's an original thought and more like it was SAID TO HIM at some time in the past. Bloodraven visited Euron's dreams like he does Bran's from this quote.

[Voice]

"I can't fly," Bran said. "I can't, I can't . . . "

How do you know? Have you ever tried?

This is pretty much the EXACT thing Euron says to Victarion on the Shield Isles drinking shade of the evening, and he says it less like it's an original thought and more like it was SAID TO HIM at some time in the past. Bloodraven visited Euron's dreams like he does Bran's from this quote.

It's an interesting idea. The wording is similar, but the tone is much different. The Three Eyed Crow is trying to save Bran's life, rather than pushing him into taking a gamble. Here's the passage, AFFC The Reaver:

"I mean to open your eyes." Euron drank deep from his own cup, and smiled. "Shade-of-the-evening, the wine of the warlocks. I came upon a cask of it when I captured a certain galleas out of Qarth, along with some cloves and nutmeg, forty bolts of green silk, and four warlocks who told a curious tale. One presumed to threaten me, so I killed him and fed him to the other three. They refused to eat of their friend's flesh at first, but when they grew hungry enough they had a change of heart. Men are meat."

Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is maddest of them all. Victarion was turning to go when the Crow's Eye said, "A king must have a wife, to give him heirs. Brother, I have need of you. Will you go to Slaver's Bay and bring my love to me?"

I had a love once too. Victarion's hands coiled into fists, and a drop of blood fell to patter on the floor. I should beat you raw and red and feed you to the crabs, the same as I did her. "You have sons," he told his brother.

"Baseborn mongrels, born of whores and weepers."

"They are of your body."

"So are the contents of my chamber pot. None is fit to sit the Seastone Chair, much less the Iron Throne. No, to make an heir that's worthy of him, I need a different woman. When the kraken weds the dragon, brother, let all the world beware."

"What dragon?" said Victarion, frowning.

"The last of her line. They say she is the fairest woman in the world. Her hair is silver-gold, and her eyes are amethysts . . . but you need not take my word for it, brother. Go to Slaver's Bay, behold her beauty, and bring her back to me."

"Why should I?" Victarion demanded.

"For love. For duty. Because your king commands it." Euron chuckled. "And for the Seastone Chair. It is yours, once I claim the Iron Throne. You shall follow me as I followed Balon . . . and your own trueborn sons shall one day follow you."

My own sons. But to have a trueborn son a man must first have a wife. Victarion had no luck with wives. Euron's gifts are poisoned, he reminded himself, but still . . .

"The choice is yours, brother. Live a thrall or die a king. Do you dare to fly? Unless you take the leap, you'll never know."

Euron's smiling eye was bright with mockery. "Or do I ask too much of you? It is a fearsome thing to sail beyond Valyria."

"I could sail the Iron Fleet to hell if need be." When Victarion opened his hand, his palm was red with blood. "I'll go to Slaver's Bay, aye. I'll find this dragon woman, and I'll bring her back." But not for you. You stole my wife and despoiled her, so I'll have yours. The fairest woman in the world, for me.

[Modesty Lannister]

I can already tell you, Modesty, that we will have to agree to disagree LOL

Bran would be the last person in Westeros to find "House Lannister" beautiful. The second shadow is someone Bran thinks is beautiful and golden, rather than a superficial stereotype of the Lannisters.

Last time I checked, the Titan of Braavos is across the Narrow Sea... It makes no sense whatsoever to see it at the Trident. Particularly when you consider that Bran looks across the Narrow Sea, at the Free Cities of Essos in the very next paragraph.

(snip)

Of course we have to agree to disagree. My greatest objection to your and any other interpretation of shadows as mere characters is that GRRM identifies characters when talking about their shadows. The quotes you provided are very different from the quote we are discussing. Each time GRRM uses the word shadow, he identifies whose shadow it is. This is the only time since the beginning of the novel that he does not identify anything. So, these are abstract rather than actual shadows, because had he been discussing shadows of certain people, we'd know who they are. I can give you many examples. And the existence of shadows is consistent with Bran's identification of danger awaiting each member of his family.

Your objection that Bran would not find Lannisters "golden and beautiful" is moot. Firstly, he does not remember who pushed him from the tower. Secondly, Lannisters (safe from Tyrion) are generally described as golden and beautiful, because they usually are. And they are also heavily armed.

Your objection that the third shadow cannot be Titan of Braavos, because the shadow is not physically in Braavos goes against the text.

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Bran III, AGOT

He doesn't see dragon eggs in the green Dothraki sea where Deanerys is at that moment. He sees them stirring beneath the sunrise in Asshai. So, since you insist on the text in its entirety, which I totally support since things cannot be taken out of context, it is obvious that locations of dangers do not match their exact location in space. A storm is not exactly where it is supposed to be, neither are the dragons. And how do we know there wasn't a FM in king's party anyway? Mance Rayder rode with king's party to Winterfell and no one noticed. Would they notice a FM? So, that objection is also moot.

Also, sticking to the text

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadowwas dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

Bran III, AGOT

The shadows are looming over Arya and Sansa. Or they are looming over Arya and Sansa and Ned and king Robert. I think it is the former. One of the posters has already explained why grammar suggests this. But, two shadows are looming over his sisters and one shadow is looming over both other shadows. So, the dynamic is more complex than you described. Why would Ser Ilyan Payne loom over Barristan Selmy and Sandor Clegane?

If we go by your identification, Sandor Clegane looming can be seen as threat, but Barristan Selmy???!!! He does not have any impact on the lives of Arya and Sansa. Ser Ilyn Payne is king's justice and will end up executing Ned Stark, but how can he be the threat? That is his job. It is like seeing a sword as a threat without an expert swordsman to wield it. Did Payne attack Ned out of his own free will, does he hold a grudge against the Starks? No. He was obeying orders ... of the Lannisters. Also, Ser Ilyn does have a face and his inside is not really dark as we saw from his interaction with Jaime Lannister. Although mute, he has a sense of humour.

Payne was as rusty as his ringmail, and not so strong as Brienne, yet he met every cut with his own blade, or interposed his shield. They danced beneath the horned moon as the blunted swords sang their steely song. The silent knight was content to let Jaime lead the dance for a while, but finally he began to answer stroke for stroke. Once he shifted to the attack, he caught Jaime on the thigh, on the shoulder, on the forearm. Thrice he made his head ring with cuts to the helm. One slash ripped the shield off his right arm, and almost burst the straps that bound his golden hand to his stump. By the time they lowered their swords he was bruised and battered, but the wine had burned away and his head was clear. "We will dance again," he promised Ser Ilyn. "On the morrow, and the morrow. Every day we'll dance, till I am as good with my left hand as ever I was with the right."

Ser Ilyn opened his mouth and made a clacking sound. A laugh, Jaime realized. Something twisted in his gut.

Jaime III, AFFC

So, I can say the same about your assessment - pure conjuncture that doesn't even make sense, because Sandor Clegane was never a real threat to the girls, Barristan Selmy had nothing to do with them and Ser Ilyan Payne executed Ned, because he was told to do it, so why would he be more important that the Lannisters in the vision?

Also we are talking about a clear sight as you yourself pointed out. A clear sight that encompasses future threats to family members. So, why would such a crystal clear vision omit real dangers and concentrate on three individuals that do not represent any true danger to Arya and Sansa while Joffrey and Cersei who are also at the Trident are passed over? Makes no sense.

[Voice]

I've already responded to Naturally Low Highborn, and would rather not have the exact same debate all over again. Mayhaps you or he should write up a new topic discussing the merits of these three shadows as shadowy incarnations of foreshadowing, as opposed to actual characters.

Of course we have to agree to disagree. My greatest objection to your and any other interpretation of shadows as mere characters is that GRRM identifies characters when talking about their shadows. The quotes you provided are very different from the quote we are discussing. Each time GRRM uses the word shadow, he identifies whose shadow it is. This is the only time since the beginning of the novel that he does not identify anything. So, these are abstract rather than actual shadows, because had he been discussing shadows of certain people, we'd know who they are. I can give you many examples. And the existence of shadows is consistent with Bran's identification of danger awaiting each member of his family.

No. Only one shadow "looms" Modesty. Only one shadow is a danger.

You are free to believe so, but GRRM does not have to play by any rules. The shadows can be whoever he wants them to be. And clearly, a great many other readers believe GRRM does identify these shadows as characters.

You objection that Bran would not find Lannisters "golden and beautiful" is moot. Firstly, he does not remember who pushed him from the tower. Secondly, Lannisters (safe from Tyrion) are generally described as golden and beautiful, because they usually are. And they are also heavily armed.

While Lannisters are oft associated with gold, paying their debts, all the gold of Casterly Rock, and even the shitting of gold, only two Lannisters are described as "golden and beautiful." Two.

Cersei and Jaime are practically synonymous with golden beauty. But you err. Bran does remember who pushed him, he's only put the memory away for now. And whenever he does think of Cersei and Jaime, the last thing that comes to his mind is how beautiful they are...

AGOT Bran III

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below.

ACOK Bran II

"Stannis? I don't know."

"He's a king now too," Cley confided. "He says Queen Cersei bedded her brother, so Joffrey is a bastard."

"Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

"Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."

For a moment Bran felt as though he could not breathe. A giant hand was crushing his chest. He felt as though he was falling, and clutched desperately at Dancer's reins.

His terror must have shown on his face. "Bran?" Cley Cerwyn said. "Are you unwell? It's only another king."

Again, you must see this from Bran's POV.

Your objection that the third shadow cannot be Titan of Braavos, because the shadow is not physically in Braavos goes against the text.

No it doesn't. I simply believe it would make more sense for the giant to be in Braavos... since Bran looks that direction in the next paragraph... if it were indeed the Giant of Braavos.

Then the giant could loom from that direction... he could even toss Arya a dull coin, while grinning at Sansa. That would make me think it were referring to Braavos. Otherwise, Ilyn Payne suits the shadow far better in my opinion.

He doesn't see dragon eggs in the green Dothraki sea where Deanerys is at that moment. He sees them stirring beneath the sunrise in Asshai. So, since you insist on the text in its entirety, which I totally support since things cannot be taken out of context, it is obvious that locations of dangers do not match their exact location in space. A storm is not exactly where it is supposed to be, neither are the dragons. And how do we know there wasn't a FM in king's party anyway? Mance Rayder rode with king's party to Winterfell and no one noticed. Would they notice a FM? So, that objection is also moot.

Really? A FM? Sure I guess if you want to think there's a faceless man with the kings party you are free to do so. I don't see what purpose that serves here.

The dragon eggs are from Asshai. Dany II AGOT:

Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. "What are they?" she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty."

"I shall treasure them always." Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

But anyway, I tend to think Bran is glimpsing the Red Comet for the first time when he described where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Also, sticking to the text

The shadows are looming over Arya and Sansa. Or they are looming over Arya and Sansa and Ned and king Robert. I think it is the former. One of the posters has already explained why grammar suggests this. But, two shadows are looming over his sisters and one shadow is looming over both other shadows. So, the dynamic is more complex than you described. Why would Ser Ilyan Payne loom over Barristan Selmy and Sandor Clegane?

Only one shadow is looming. And it's looming over the other two shadows. It alone is a threat, while the others are just "around" Bran's family.

The first shadow is merely a dog in his family's presence. The other is bold as the sun itself and beautiful in Bran's eyes. But in the end, the power lies with the man holding the sword, rather than the obedient hound, or the true knight.

Tyrion I ACOK

"In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." The eunuch rubbed his powdered hands together. "May I leave you with a bit of a riddle, Lord Tyrion?" He did not wait for an answer. "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet.

Tyrion II ACOK

"Oh, I think not," Varys said, swirling the wine in his cup. "Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?"

"It has crossed my mind a time or two," Tyrion admitted. "The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

If we go by your identification, Sandor Clegane looming can be seen as threat, but Barristan Selmy???!!! He does not have any impact on the lives of Arya and Sansa. Ser Ilyn Payne is king's justice and will end up executing Ned Stark, but how can he be the threat? That is his job. It is like seeing a sword as a threat without an expert swordsman to wield it. Did Payne attack Ned out of his own free will, does he hold a grudge against the Starks? No. He was obeying orders ... of the Lannisters. Also, Ser Ilyn does have a face and his inside is not really dark as we saw from his interaction with Jaime Lannister. Although mute, he has a sense of humour.

The first shadow does not loom, Modesty. Neither does the second. Only the third shadow is looming. I think you should reread these chapters and see if you still feel the same way. Only the third shadow is looming, and it is the only threat of these three.

Ilyn enjoys his job, as Sansa points out at the Trident, they certainly chose a fitting executioner. Payne quickly killed Ned in spite of protestations from the Queen and Varys and the High Septon.

"The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

So, I can say the same about your assessment - pure conjuncture that doesn't even make sense, because Sandor Clegane was never a real threat to the girls, Barristan Selmy had nothing to do with them and Ser Ilyan Payne executed Ned, because he was told to do it, so why would he be more important that the Lannisters in the vision?

You could say the same, but I've provided ample sources suggesting Bran looks up to Barristan in a very special way, an that Barristan shines like the sun in his Kingsguard armor.

Payne did execute Ned on order, but this gets back to Varys' riddle. Payne listened to the child king because he wanted to cut off Ned's head. Clearly, things did not go according to plan. As Tyrion points out in ACOK:

"The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

And there is also the looming manner in which Ned discussed paid executioners with Bran, and Sansa's deepset fear of Payne at the Trident that seemed to spring from nowhere. So yes, he was told to do it, by a child king, and rather than weigh the order, he relished the opportunity to behead a man he had a grudge against.

Also we are talking about a clear sight as you yourself pointed out. A clear sight that encompasses future threats to family members. So, why would such a crystal clear vision omit real dangers and concentrate on three individuals that do not represent any true danger to Arya and Sansa while Joffrey and Cersei who are also at the Trident are passed over? Makes no sense.

I'm not passing them over. I've considered them. And in looking at them, and Bran's POV in this instance, there are few possibilities for this beautiful shadow. I think Barristan fits from Bran's perspective. You disagree. And that's, okay. :D

[Modesty Lannister]

I've already responded to Naturally Low Highborn, and would rather not have the exact same debate all over again. Mayhaps you or he should write up a new topic discussing the merits of these three shadows as shadowy incarnations of foreshadowing, as opposed to actual characters.

No. Only one shadow "looms" Modesty. Only one shadow is a danger.

You are free to believe so, but GRRM does not have to play by any rules. The shadows can be whoever he wants them to be. And clearly, a great many other readers believe GRRM does identify these shadows as characters.

While Lannisters are oft associated with gold, paying their debts, all the gold of Casterly Rock, and even the shitting of gold, only two Lannisters are described as "golden and beautiful." Two.

Cersei and Jaime are practically synonymous with golden beauty. But you err. Bran does remember who pushed him, he's only put the memory away for now. And whenever he does think of Cersei and Jaime, the last thing that comes to his mind is how beautiful they are...

AGOT Bran III

Bran was staring at his arms, his legs. He was so skinny, just skin stretched taut over bones. Had he always been so thin? He tried to remember. A face swam up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden. “The things I do for love,” it said.

Bran screamed.

The crow took to the air, cawing. Not that, it shrieked at him. Forget that, you do not need it now, put it aside, put it away. It landed on Bran’s shoulder, and pecked at him, and the shining golden face was gone.

Bran was falling faster than ever. The grey mists howled around him as he plunged toward the earth below.

ACOK Bran II

"Stannis? I don't know."

"He's a king now too," Cley confided. "He says Queen Cersei bedded her brother, so Joffrey is a bastard."

"Joffrey the Illborn," one of the Cerwyn knights growled. "Small wonder he's faithless, with the Kingslayer for a father."

"Aye," said another, "the gods hate incest. Look how they brought down the Targaryens."

For a moment Bran felt as though he could not breathe. A giant hand was crushing his chest. He felt as though he was falling, and clutched desperately at Dancer's reins.

His terror must have shown on his face. "Bran?" Cley Cerwyn said. "Are you unwell? It's only another king."

Again, you must see this from Bran's POV.

No it doesn't. I simply believe it would make more sense for the giant to be in Braavos... since Bran looks that direction in the next paragraph... if it were indeed the Giant of Braavos.

Then the giant could loom from that direction... he could even toss Arya a dull coin, while grinning at Sansa. That would make me think it were referring to Braavos. Otherwise, Ilyn Payne suits the shadow far better in my opinion.

Really? A FM? Sure I guess if you want to think there's a faceless man with the kings party you are free to do so. I don't see what purpose that serves here.

The dragon eggs are from Asshai. Dany II AGOT:

Magister Illyrio murmured a command, and four burly slaves hurried forward, bearing between them a great cedar chest bound in bronze. When she opened it, she found piles of the finest velvets and damasks the Free Cities could produce … and resting on top, nestled in the soft cloth, three huge eggs. Dany gasped. They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. "What are they?" she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.

"Dragon's eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai," said Magister Illyrio. "The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty."

"I shall treasure them always." Dany had heard tales of such eggs, but she had never seen one, nor thought to see one. It was a truly magnificent gift, though she knew that Illyrio could afford to be lavish. He had collected a fortune in horses and slaves for his part in selling her to Khal Drogo.

But anyway, I tend to think Bran is glimpsing the Red Comet for the first time when he described where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Only one shadow is looming. And it's looming over the other two shadows. It alone is a threat, while the others are just "around" Bran's family.

The first shadow is merely a dog in his family's presence. The other is bold as the sun itself and beautiful in Bran's eyes. But in the end, the power lies with the man holding the sword, rather than the obedient hound, or the true knight.

Tyrion I ACOK

"In the streets, they call it the Red Messenger," Varys said. "They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow." The eunuch rubbed his powdered hands together. "May I leave you with a bit of a riddle, Lord Tyrion?" He did not wait for an answer. "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me—who lives and who dies?" Bowing deeply, the eunuch hurried from the common room on soft slippered feet.

Tyrion II ACOK

"Oh, I think not," Varys said, swirling the wine in his cup. "Power is a curious thing, my lord. Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?"

"It has crossed my mind a time or two," Tyrion admitted. "The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

The first shadow does not loom, Modesty. Neither does the second. Only the third shadow is looming. I think you should reread these chapters and see if you still feel the same way. Only the third shadow is looming, and it is the only threat of these three.

Ilyn enjoys his job, as Sansa points out at the Trident, they certainly chose a fitting executioner. Payne quickly killed Ned in spite of protestations from the Queen and Varys and the High Septon.

"The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

You could say the same, but I've provided ample sources suggesting Bran looks up to Barristan in a very special way, an that Barristan shines like the sun in his Kingsguard armor.

Payne did execute Ned on order, but this gets back to Varys' riddle. Payne listened to the child king because he wanted to cut off Ned's head. Clearly, things did not go according to plan. As Tyrion points out in ACOK:

"The king, the priest, the rich man—who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."

And there is also the looming manner in which Ned discussed paid executioners with Bran, and Sansa's deepset fear of Payne at the Trident that seemed to spring from nowhere. So yes, he was told to do it, by a child king, and rather than weigh the order, he relished the opportunity to behead a man he had a grudge against.

I'm not passing them over. I've considered them. And in looking at them, and Bran's POV in this instance, there are few possibilities for this beautiful shadow. I think Barristan fits from Bran's perspective. You disagree. And that's, okay. :D

You are free to disagree, but it is very passive aggressive of you to tell me to reread the books. Your theory does not even make any sense. I could argue with you more, but I see that it is pointless. You see what you want to see regardless of the text.

Generally, regardless of our discussion. I'd advise you to shorten your quotes and use the quote window as instructed on the forum. It is very difficult to read needless long quotes. I am not even going to comment to what extent they are related to the issue we are discussing.

ETA: Shadows do not need to loom to represent danger. Dragons are stirring. Storm is not looming. Yet, they represent danger. Also, in a quote you provided, Ned's shadow is looming over Bran and it does not represent danger. This only proves that you missed my point that everything on that tableau that is not a character represents danger. Shadows are just a part of it.

ETA2: Your assessment that Payne relishes Ned's execution and his job is more than a conjuncture. It is an invention. Nothing in the text suggests he likes his job.

[Voice]

You are free to disagree, but it is very passive aggressive of you to tell me to reread the books. Your theory does not even make any sense. I could argue with you more, but I see that it is pointless. You see what you want to see regardless of the text.

There's no reason to be that way. I meant no ill by suggesting a reread. If you read through the comments, you'll find others who changed their mind about my theory once they reread it. My interpretation is better illustrated by the adjacent chapters than it is quoting bits here and there, that's all. No passive aggression, my Lady. If anything, your reaction is.

Saying my theory doesn't make any sense is baseless, immature, and disrespectful to me an other members who have commented. I'd like to keep this thread above the sort of bickering you see elsewhere on the forums if possible.

So again, I mean you no ill when I say a reread is beneficial. I often reread when I stumble upon another point of view I disagree with. It seems you are easily provoked and lash out even easier. There's no need. I don't dismiss Naturally Low Highborn's unique interpretation anyway, so there's really no need to attack me as if I am. If you prefer his interpretation, that's great. I wish you well.

Generally, regardless of our discussion. I'd advise you to shorten your quotes and use the quote window as instructed on the forum. It is very difficult to read needless long quotes. I am not even going to comment to what extent they are related to the issue we are discussing.

It's a habit from Heresy. I prefer to base my arguments on the text itself. And I dislike quote boxes, because as conversations develop, the quote boxes are lost when replies are made. I will continue to respond in the manner I choose, but you are of course free to make use of quote boxes as much as you'd like.

ETA: Shadows do not need to loom to represent danger. Dragons are stirring. Storm is not looming. Yet, they represent danger. Also, in a quote you provided, Ned's shadow is looming over Bran and it does not represent danger. This only proves that you missed my point that everything on that tableau that is not a character represents danger. Shadows are just a part of it.

I didn't miss your point, I just disagreed with it. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp, and Naturally Low Highborn explained it quite well. I simply disagree.

As to the looming of characters and shadows. It's true. Not all shadows loom just as not all shadows are threats. Not all characters who loom are threats in and of themselves. Clearly, as you point out, Ned is not a threat. Rather, I think in that instance, GRRM has used the phrase "loomed like a giant" in a rather telling way. Ned's death looms over the entire first book, particularly the Stark children. Ilyn Payne carries out that omen.

ETA2: Your assessment that Payne relishes Ned's execution and his job is more than a conjuncture. It is an invention. Nothing in the text suggests he likes his job.

With all due respect Modesty, you're simply wrong. Again, a reread may be helpful. Ilyn Payne is not a Clegane lap dog. If you took the time to read my quotes in my first response to you, you would have seen that Ilyn Payne not only held a grudge against Ned for slighting him, and denying him the opportunity to kill on several occasions, but that Ilyn Payne "loves his work." Mayhaps you dislike reading, but not to worry ;) this quote is brief:

Eddard XI

"And Ser Ilyn?" The eunuch stroked a plump, powdered cheek. "He is the King's Justice, after all. Sending other men to do his office … some might construe that as a grave insult."

"No slight was intended." In truth, Ned did not trust the mute knight, though perhaps that was only because he misliked executioners. "I remind you, the Paynes are bannermen to House Lannister. I thought it best to choose men who owed Lord Tywin no fealty."

"Very prudent, no doubt," Varys said. "Still, I chanced to see Ser Ilyn in the back of the hall, staring at us with those pale eyes of his, and I must say, he did not look pleased, though to be sure it is hard to tell with our silent knight. I hope he outgrows his disappointment as well. He does so love his work …"

[Modesty Lannister]

There's no reason to be that way. I meant no ill by suggesting a reread. If you read through the comments, you'll find others who changed their mind about my theory once they reread it. My interpretation is better illustrated by the adjacent chapters than it is quoting bits here and there, that's all. No passive aggression, my Lady. If anything, your reaction is.

Saying my theory doesn't make any sense is baseless, immature, and disrespectful to me an other members who have commented. I'd like to keep this thread above the sort of bickering you see elsewhere on the forums if possible.

So again, I mean you no ill when I say a reread is beneficial. I often reread when I stumble upon another point of view I disagree with. It seems you are easily provoked and lash out even easier. There's no need. I don't dismiss Naturally Low Highborn's unique interpretation anyway, so there's really no need to attack me as if I am. If you prefer his interpretation, that's great. I wish you well.

It's a habit from Heresy. I prefer to base my arguments on the text itself. And I dislike quote boxes, because as conversations develop, the quote boxes are lost when replies are made. I will continue to respond in the manner I choose, but you are of course free to make use of quote boxes as much as you'd like.

I didn't miss your point, I just disagreed with it. It isn't a difficult concept to grasp, and Naturally Low Highborn explained it quite well. I simply disagree.

As to the looming of characters and shadows. It's true. Not all shadows loom just as not all shadows are threats. Not all characters who loom are threats in and of themselves. Clearly, as you point out, Ned is not a threat. Rather, I think in that instance, GRRM has used the phrase "loomed like a giant" in a rather telling way. Ned's death looms over the entire first book, particularly the Stark children. Ilyn Payne carries out that omen.

With all due respect Modesty, you're simply wrong. Again, a reread may be helpful. Ilyn Payne is not a Clegane lap dog. If you took the time to read my quotes in my first response to you, you would have seen that Ilyn Payne not only held a grudge against Ned for slighting him, and denying him the opportunity to kill on several occasions, but that Ilyn Payne "loves his work." Mayhaps you dislike reading, but not to worry ;) this quote is brief:

Eddard XI

"And Ser Ilyn?" The eunuch stroked a plump, powdered cheek. "He is the King's Justice, after all. Sending other men to do his office … some might construe that as a grave insult."

"No slight was intended." In truth, Ned did not trust the mute knight, though perhaps that was only because he misliked executioners. "I remind you, the Paynes are bannermen to House Lannister. I thought it best to choose men who owed Lord Tywin no fealty."

"Very prudent, no doubt," Varys said. "Still, I chanced to see Ser Ilyn in the back of the hall, staring at us with those pale eyes of his, and I must say, he did not look pleased, though to be sure it is hard to tell with our silent knight. I hope he outgrows his disappointment as well. He does so love his work …"

I am very saddened by this post. I can only repeat that offending people who criticise your theories backing their critique with arguments will not make your theory stronger or more believable. You behaviour is very offensive, because advising anyone to reread what you wrote or what was written in the books is patronising to say the least. I never lashed at you. I explained why I disagree with your theory and used text to back it up. When you post a theory, you should be ready to debate it with arguments, not insults. That is against rules of this forum as you well know, as is your attempt to accuse me of the behaviour you have been displaying. Since your arguments, as well as counterarguments, including my own, are already posted and available to be read, I do not see any point in repeating them. Since you pride yourself of sticking to the text, I'll leave you with a final thought. From this quote, which is not even Bran's, but Sansa's POV

One knight wore an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun. When he removed his helm, Sansa saw that he was an old man with hair as pale as his armor, yet he seemed strong and graceful for all that. From his shoulders hung the pure white cloak of the Kingsguard. Sansa II, AGOT

you arrived to your deduction that Shadow 2 is Barristan Selmy. So, silver chasings and clasps glittering in the sun somehow turned out to be golden and beautiful. With this logic, you really do not need us to refute a single word you say. You do it well all by yourself. :cheers:

[Voice]

I am very saddened by this post. I can only repeat that offending people who criticise your theories backing their critique with arguments will not make your theory stronger or more believable. You behaviour is very offensive, because advising anyone to reread what you wrote or what was written in the books is patronising to say the least. I never lashed at you. I explained why I disagree with your theory and used text to back it up. When you post a theory, you should be ready to debate it with arguments, not insults. That is against rules of this forum as you well know, as is your attempt to accuse me of the behaviour you have been displaying. Since your arguments, as well as counterarguments, including my own, are already posted and available to be read, I do not see any point in repeating them. Since you pride yourself of sticking to the text, I'll leave you with a final thought. From this quote, which is not even Bran's, but Sansa's POV

you arrived to your deduction that Shadow 2 is Barristan Selmy. So, silver chasings and clasps glittering in the sun somehow turned out to be golden and beautiful. With this logic, you really do not need us to refute a single word you say. You do it well all by yourself. :cheers:

Hmm, somehow I doubt you are saddened. And I have no idea what you found so offensive. I used text to support every word of my argument. Silver chasings and glittering clasps are Sansa's POV. Bran has his own glowing appraisal of Barristan that you seem to be forgetting or ignoring. I've posted it several times. Apparently you think I'm patronizing you, but that is the benefit of rereads. You look for nuances in the story. Bran's regard for Barristan is clearly nuanced.

I am glad, at least, that we share the desire to stop repeating arguments. Despite your venom, I wish you well in your personal interpretations and Naturally Low Highborn's as well.

[Cladinator]

Regardless of who the shadows belong to, I can't really see their relevance.

[Voice]

Regardless of who the shadows belong to, I can't really see their relevance.

LOL Fair Point! Nice, short and sweet comment that cuts through the chaff and gets to the heart of the matter. It puts the paragraph in perspective... The events of the Trident lead to traumatic events for House Stark, as it suffers a great loss, then divides and splinters like the forks of the Trident. But in the broad scheme of things, Bran is bearing witness to far greater portents than these three shadows.

Microcosmically, the shadows are significant as Bran sees his family becoming entangled with the intentions of strangers. Of these, Ilyn Payne is ominous, looming over his family. The other two are far less significant. Mere strangers among the masses surrounding his family. The Hound and Barristan (even though he's a hero of Bran's) are not all that significant in the broad scheme of things. Barristan may represent Bran's fading dreams of knighthood, the end of his childish desires, giving way to his new fate as a greenseer. I think, as you may be suggesting, the true power of this dream is not in these shadows, but the fact that Bran is seeing everything in realtime... which brings me to:

Macrocosmically...

The main intrigue for me, is, If Bran is seeing everything in realtime, that means the true threat from the North has been lying in wait this entire time... which leads to the reasoning of my Other thread.

It is my contention that we have not yet seen the true Others. But, at the end of his falling dream, it seems Bran has:

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran always liked the scary stories, remember. He doesn't balk at the darkness of the crypts, Coldhands, or his corpse-like one eyed teacher, Bloodraven. What could possibly make this boy cry out, afraid? Something more than the white walkers we saw in the Prologue, I believe.

I've more to say, but it isn't really related to this thread. I invite you to check out my Hierarchy of the Others thread if you're interested though. And I'll leave you with this thought from George R. R. Martin's 1993 synopsis:

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life."

[Voice]

I am going to attend Comicon 2015 in my country this year and I want to Got cosplay.

Has anyone bought from this site?

http://www.fanrek.com/game-of-thrones

Thank you!

Welcome to the forum, Mariana!

I don't think you meant to comment here on the thread discussing the Three Shadows in Bran's Vision though :)

You will find the answers you're looking for among the Brotherhood without Banners, where they discuss social events :cheers:

[Mother of Dragons]

Hi!!!! Just read this part so I thought I'd peruse your theory. If only there was a place for you to see my latest talking points :-)