Three Shadows in Bran's Vision

[Luddagain]

They are obviously ALL real time visions. The only one that is not obvious is the giant.

Now who do we KNOW was playing games with the Starks, to hurt them. Petyr sent the letter to Catelyn and killed Arryn. He orchestrated Ned leaving the North to his death. He almost certainly was behind the attempt on Bran's life. His family sigil is a giant.

[Luddagain]

They are obviously ALL real time visions. The only one that is not obvious is the giant.

Now who do we KNOW was playing games with the Starks, to hurt them. Petyr sent the letter to Catelyn and killed Arryn. He orchestrated Ned leaving the North to his death. He almost certainly was behind the attempt on Bran's life. His family sigil is a giant.

[Voice]

They are obviously ALL real time visions. The only one that is not obvious is the giant.

Now who do we KNOW was playing games with the Starks, to hurt them. Petyr sent the letter to Catelyn and killed Arryn. He orchestrated Ned leaving the North to his death. He almost certainly was behind the attempt on Bran's life. His family sigil is a giant.

I think Joffrey was behind the catspaw. Lysa sent the letter. Yes, it was at Petyr's behest, but Lysa is the one that wrote the letter in her and her sister's secret language, Lysa is the one that sealed the letter, and the one that had the letter delivered. That same box from Lysa contained a lens for Luwin's observatory. If Lysa/Petyr loom, they should loom over Luwin as he gazes up at the sky. Petyr gambled, but did not orchestrate. The Stag killed the Direwolf, per the omen in the first chapter. The Stag hid behind a paid executioner who later beheads Ned and is now in close proximity to Bran's family at the Trident. Petyr was never at the Trident, which is difficult to reconcile with the present, in situ, real time visions. Lastly, we know LF has shunned the fearsome Giant of Braavos, and created his own personal sigil: the mockingbird.

[Lost Melnibonean]

"Do you see that window, ser?" Jaime used a sword to point. "That was Raymun Darry's bedchamber. Where King Robert slept, on our return from Winterfell. Ned Stark's daughter had run off after her wolf savaged Joff, you'll recall. My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night . . . well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside. The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry's bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword . . . but you know that story, don't you?" He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. "As I was f**king her, Cersei cried, I want.' I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead." The things I do for love. "It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first . . ."

Jaime IV, Feast 30

[Voice]

Jaime IV, Feast 30

This supports the idea that Cersei wanted Arya dead. Nothing more. And again, Bran, in this elated state, is not seeing what people 'could' do, but what they are, and, what they 'will' do.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This supports the idea that Cersei wanted Arya dead. Nothing more. And again, Bran, in this elated state, is not seeing what people 'could' do, but what they are, and, what they 'will' do.

OK bud, end Jaime's sentence for him--fill in the blank... It was the Stark girl she wanted, maimed or dead. It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...

And I missed your response to this from the last page...

After reading The Mystery Knight, whenever I reread "mist" in ASOIAF, my first assumption is the the author is signaling the involvement of Brynden Rivers...

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

The Mystery Knight

I do see the association of grey with Winterfell. But when we read the grey mists, Brynden is still teaching Bran to fly, so there's no need to signal Winterfell yet. And there never is since we read later, "He saw Winterfell."

The tale grew in the telling. What hasn't changed from the 1993 letter is the basic structure of ASOIAF into three acts: The War of the Five Kings, The Second Dance of the Dragons and the War for the Dawn. It just got streched out a bit. But Bran III, Game 17 introduces the basic elements of each of the acts: the looming struggle between Houses Stark and Lannister, Daenerys's journey and the return of dragons, and the darkness coming from the Heart of Winter.

Now, as to why I don't think these are actual, real time visual observations by Bran as he flies overhead; first, he isn't skinchanging yet, so he's not simply soaring overhead in a raven. Second, after Luwin, Robb and Hodor (The George sure loves his threes), he sees the tree, but what do you suppose he's looking out of or looking into? And finally, Do you believe the tree actually lifted it's eyes and stared back knowingly? Can you imagine if Mikken would have happened to have been passing by? He would have laid an egg right there. So far, we haven't seen any ents.

The reason I bring up Catelyn here is because all we know about weirwoods, so far at this point in early Game, we've learned from her. You're thinking in terms of everything we've learned about ASOIAF over 19 years, all the way through Alayne I, Winds. And that is required to figure out most of this stuff. But we have to keep in mind that the George has been and continues to tell a story. This is not just forensic science; it's also literature and storytelling. There was a time in 1996, when all anyone knew about weirwoods was what I posted from Catelyn's early POVs. And that's when The George gave us Bran III, Game 17. So, we have Catelyn "feeling" the weirwood watching her, and we have Bran envisioning the weirwood lifting its eyes to stare at him.

Additionally, as Brynden was teaching Bran to fly, Bran envisions a face swimming up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden, and saying, "The things I do for love." How the heck does this negate my argument that these are not real time visual observations by Bran but rather visions inspired by Brynden Rivers? I doubt Bran saw a face swimming, and Brynden supressed this from Bran's consciousness. I discuss why Brynden did show Bran a vision of Jaime later below.

I understand the central point of your argument to be that Bran visually observed in real time, at or near the Trident, The Ned as he pleaded with Robert. Now, this was at Castle Darry, during Arya's trial and Robert's order to put down Lady. Then, "He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night." This suggests to me that Bran sensed his sister was distraught over the loss of Lady. But the quoted expression (and Sansa II, Game 29) suggests this emotion played out over time. If the author wanted us to understand this as a real time visual observation why not say "crying herself to sleep that night," or just "weeping" or "wailing in sorrow?" This is important, because if what Bran envisioned occurred over a series of nights, Sansa was no longer at the Trident as he continued to see it. Now, when The Ned was pleading, and Sansa was crying at Castle Darry, Arya was not watching in silence, she told her story, and she attacked Sansa at the trial, and she shouted at the King when Robert ordered Lady to be put down. The brooding silence followed later, as they continued onto King's Landing. It didn't end until she began training with Syrio.

Again, I ask you, in what form did Bran physically fly over the Trident? Did he swoop in low? Did he perch in a tree? How did he see what was going on inside Castle Darry? You admit that he could not have made such real time visual observations simultaneously. Did he circle around? Did he continue to observe them after they left the castle?

OK, so let's turn to the real questions here: You say the first shadow is Sandor, the second is Barristan and the third is Ilyn. I agree the first is Sandor, but I say the second is Jaime, and I strongly suspect the third is Petyr.

You say these are real time visual observations so you limit the field to persons at Castle Darry on the night of Arya's trial (Jaime was at or near the Trident searching for Arya, and presumably he rejoined the party within a day or two, but you eliminate him so that limits the field to Castle Darry). But the why did he only see shadows? Where was Sandor when he saw him? Was it when he dumped Mycah's body in front of The Ned? Ironically, you accuse others of being too literal in their interpretations, but you are limiting the field to what Bran can "see" while flying overhead in some form. And the shadows, all three of them are standing around The Ned, Arya, and Sansa. So what is Bran actually "seeing" as he flies overhead? You're the one being too literal.

The only description we have of the first shadow is dark as ash with the face of a hound. Even though Sandor wears "soot-dark armor" (Tyrion I, Game 9), you tell us he is not ash dark in color, and you tell us to ignore the burn scars about his face. Although the hound wears a helm "fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound" (Tyrion I, Game 9), you tell us his face is human, so we should ignore that too. Instead, you tell us that Bran "sees through to the inner character of each shadow, and he sees that one was abused/burned, brutal but loyal, and does not make his own decisions."

So, as we consider candidates for the three shadows you want us to eliminate any character to present at Castle Darry the night of Arya's trial because Bran would not have... um, literally seen them as he flew overhead in some form, but then you tell us that Bran sees the inner character of each shadow. So, I think your logic is inconsistent. You want us to eliminate characters because Bran can't see them because they aren't there, but then Bran doesn't see the characters that are there, he sees through to their inner character.

Leaving aside the third shadow for a moment, the first two are described metaphorically by The Grorge for the reader to add mystery. The first are easy to figure out based on what we know after 16 chapters in 1996, but the third is the mystery. The George wants his readers to be asking, who is this third shadow? Who is this threat looming larger than Joffrey's sworn sword who would have ridden down Arya if he'd found her before Jory did, and Cersei's brother/lover who pushed Bran out a window? Not until the end of Storm, which is the end of the first act of ASOIAF, do we learn that Petyr set everything in motion to bring down House Stark.That's why the shadows are shadows, not because Bran is flying overhead like Peter Pan and sees into their souls, but because the storyteller is setting up the mystery of what is really going on in the War of the Five Kings.

All we know about the second shadow is that it's armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Now, you told us that Bran wasn't looking at the figures there on the ground (even though they had to be there on the ground standing around his father and sisters as he flew overhead), but that he was looking through to their inner characters. And this is why you cast doubt on Jaime, since Bran would not have found Jaime's character to be beautiful. So you tell us to ignore the actual armor, which was like the sun--golden and beautiful--even though we know Jaime wears "the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor" (Eddard II, Game 12), and the author described Jaime as having "hair bright as beaten gold," "tall and golden, with flashing green eyes," who "looked more like the knights from the stories," "twin to Queen Cersei," who was "beautiful as men say," with "long golden hair" and emerald green eyes. Barristan on the other hand, as you say, has a noble nature, much more so than Jaime. But aren't these three shadows menacing? How does Barristan menace House Stark? And once again you jump past your own reasoning against Jaimie (Bran wasn't looking at the armor but the inner nature of the character) and reference how Barristan was described wearing "an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun." So, is Bran seeing the armor or not?

You say that The George doesn't mean for these shadows to be malevolent, that he's using them to contrast brutality, beauty, and mortality, but I think you are way off the reservation in that. These are shadows. Physical shadows are a dark area produced by a body coming between light and a surface. But shadows are used to describe a proximate, ominous presence. They evoke doom and gloom, not beauty.

Brynden is using these shadows to show Brandon there are threats to his family, and a storm is coming. But as I said above, The storyteller is using these shadows to add mystery for the reader. He knows (or I guess assumes since you're having trouble getting it :P ) the first are easy to figure out based on what we know after 16 chapters in 1996, but the third is the mystery. The George wants his readers to be asking, who is this third shadow?

You make good arguments for Ilyn as the third shadow. I find them unconvincing, but they are good. I think it's Petyr. We don't need to be limited to characters at Castle Darry on the night of Arya's trial. Bran was lying in a coma. He still hadn't learned to open his third eye. He still hadn't learned to slip inside a raven and see with its eyes. These were visions inspired by Brynden.

The third shadow 1) looms over the other two shadows 2) like a giant in stone armor, 3a) with no face, 3b) but darkness and thick black blood.

1) That he looms over the other two shadows should suggest that he or she is the greatest threat to House Stark. Since Ilyn is the man who actually lops off The Ned's head, he's a good candidate. But he was just following the orders of King Joffrey. Joffrey is a nasty little cuss, but he's a small person who ends up getting whacked himself, as set up by Petyr. And Petyr is the one who whispered in Joffrey's ear, which led to Joffrey defying his regent's wishes. Petyr is also the one who arranged to have Janos and Ilyn carry out the execution before Varys or the King's regent could stop it. But more importantly, Petyr, with malice toward House Stark initiated the War of the Five Kings, betrayed The Ned, continued to fool Catelyn, and continues to play Sansa. He is the primary antagonist to House Stark in the first act. He is the big bad here. And maybe you will recall that as Jaime and Sandor rode against each other in the Hand's Tourney, Petyr loomed over them in the viewing stands wagering on the outcome.

2) The likeness to a giant in stone armor is a bit of a red herring. First we see that Tyrion is described ironically as a giant. And much much later we must allow for the possibility that he might be carrying greyscale. Then we're introduced to Gregor, the Mountain that Rides, who wears a stone fist atop his helm. And after Qyburn does his thing, he looks like a perfect fit except for the fact that he's not more important to the story than Sandor and Jaime.Then, four years later, at the end of the first act, we read this...

The device painted on the shield was one Sansa did not know; a grey stone head with fiery eyes, upon a light green field. "My grandfather's shield," Petyr explained when he saw her gazing at it. "His own father was born in Braavos and came to the Vale as a sellsword in the hire of Lord Corbray, so my grandfather took the head of the Titan as his sigil when he was knighted."

Sansa VI, Storm 68

3a) I think this is a clue that Petyr hired a Faceless Man to kill the Ned before Robert named him Hand, thus explaining the Faceless Man in the Black Cells who was sent with Yoren, but I'll leave that alone for now since most folks seem to think I'm off my rocker about that.

3b) This seems to be why most readrs conclude Gregor is the third shadow. But I recall this...

The king heard him. "You stiff-necked fool," he muttered, "too proud to listen. Can you eat pride, Stark? Will honor shield your children?" Cracks ran down his face, fissures opening in the flesh, and he reached up and ripped the mask away. It was not Robert at all; it was Littlefinger, grinning, mocking him. When he opened his mouth to speak, his lies turned to pale grey moths and took wing.

Eddard XV, Game 58

Darkness is usually associated with evil. And moths, as opposed to butterflies, are creatures of the night. The moth symbolizes corruption, decay and death. Thick black blood also symbolizes death. After blood loses oxygen it darkens until it appears to be nearly black.

As for my comments regarding Bran's vision across the Narrow Sea and beyond the Wall, I was trying to show how Bran III, Game 17 is an outine of ASOIAF.

[Voice]

OK bud, end Jaime's sentence for him--fill in the blank... It was the Stark girl she wanted, maimed or dead. It was only by chance that Stark's own men found the girl before me. If I had come on her first...

Fill it in with what? Fan fiction? Why should I want to do that? To make the second shadow conform to a seven year old boy's concept of beauty? It makes no sense...

And I missed your response to this from the last page...

After reading The Mystery Knight, whenever I reread "mist" in ASOIAF, my first assumption is the the author is signaling the involvement of Brynden Rivers...

The Mystery Knight

I do see the association of grey with Winterfell. But when we read the grey mists, Brynden is still teaching Bran to fly, so there's no need to signal Winterfell yet. And there never is since we read later, "He saw Winterfell."

The tale grew in the telling. What hasn't changed from the 1993 letter is the basic structure of ASOIAF into three acts: The War of the Five Kings, The Second Dance of the Dragons and the War for the Dawn. It just got streched out a bit. But Bran III, Game 17 introduces the basic elements of each of the acts: the looming struggle between Houses Stark and Lannister, Daenerys's journey and the return of dragons, and the darkness coming from the Heart of Winter.

Now, as to why I don't think these are actual, real time visual observations by Bran as he flies overhead; first, he isn't skinchanging yet, so he's not simply soaring overhead in a raven. Second, after Luwin, Robb and Hodor (The George sure loves his threes), he sees the tree, but what do you suppose he's looking out of or looking into? And finally, Do you believe the tree actually lifted it's eyes and stared back knowingly? Can you imagine if Mikken would have happened to have been passing by? He would have laid an egg right there. So far, we haven't seen any ents.

The Grey Mists are the North. They are the curtain of Bran's consciousness. At the end of the dream, they shudder, and dissolve to reveal his waking world. The dream opens with their curtain, and closes with it.

A great many things in that 1993 letter are no longer accurate, but I don't disagree with your overall sentiment. I do think this dream serves to realign the reader's priorities. Rather than the petty dangers facing Bran's family, and the realm, the real reason Bran must live is because Winter is Coming, and that is the true threat. I think we agree on that bit.

Skinchanging has nothing at all to do with the realtime interpretation of the dream. You should read up on out of body experiences and spirit flight. I did mention these in my answer earlier, that you apparently didn't see...

The reason I bring up Catelyn here is because all we know about weirwoods, so far at this point in early Game, we've learned from her. You're thinking in terms of everything we've learned about ASOIAF over 19 years, all the way through Alayne I, Winds. And that is required to figure out most of this stuff. But we have to keep in mind that the George has been and continues to tell a story. This is not just forensic science; it's also literature and storytelling. There was a time in 1996, when all anyone knew about weirwoods was what I posted from Catelyn's early POVs. And that's when The George gave us Bran III, Game 17. So, we have Catelyn "feeling" the weirwood watching her, and we have Bran envisioning the weirwood lifting its eyes to stare at him.

Catelyn has nothing to do with this part of the vision. You are free to draw that connection, but you can't blame others if they just don't see it. As I said to another commenter, I believe there is still yet much more to learn regarding the weirwoods in general, and the Winterfell godswood specifically.

Additionally, as Brynden was teaching Bran to fly, Bran envisions a face swimming up at him out of the grey mist, shining with light, golden, and saying, "The things I do for love." How the heck does this negate my argument that these are not real time visual observations by Bran but rather visions inspired by Brynden Rivers? I doubt Bran saw a face swimming, and Brynden supressed this from Bran's consciousness. I discuss why Brynden did show Bran a vision of Jaime later below.

Because, Brynden Rivers doesn't want Bran to see Jaime. Seeing Jaime makes Bran scream and fall faster. Brynden Rivers wants Bran to Fly, not cry.

I understand the central point of your argument to be that Bran visually observed in real time, at or near the Trident, The Ned as he pleaded with Robert. Now, this was at Castle Darry, during Arya's trial and Robert's order to put down Lady. Then, "He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night." This suggests to me that Bran sensed his sister was distraught over the loss of Lady. But the quoted expression (and Sansa II, Game 29) suggests this emotion played out over time. If the author wanted us to understand this as a real time visual observation why not say "crying herself to sleep that night," or just "weeping" or "wailing in sorrow?" This is important, because if what Bran envisioned occurred over a series of nights, Sansa was no longer at the Trident as he continued to see it. Now, when The Ned was pleading, and Sansa was crying at Castle Darry, Arya was not watching in silence, she told her story, and she attacked Sansa at the trial, and she shouted at the King when Robert ordered Lady to be put down. The brooding silence followed later, as they continued onto King's Landing. It didn't end until she began training with Syrio.

Have you read these adjacent four chapters recently? Everything Bran saw around his family played out as he was in his coma. This is fairly straightforward for most readers, I think. You are free to your interpretation, but the text speaks for itself.

Again, I ask you, in what form did Bran physically fly over the Trident? Did he swoop in low? Did he perch in a tree? How did he see what was going on inside Castle Darry? You admit that he could not have made such real time visual observations simultaneously. Did he circle around? Did he continue to observe them after they left the castle?

He used a drone.

LOL, seriously though, you should check out the motif of spirit flight in shamanism. The 3EC is sharing terrible knowledge with Bran. Bran is in spirit flight, and is at once cognizant of "the realm and everyone in it." He sees not only the superficial, but the hidden truths as well. He was in his coma for a long time.

While in his coma, he looked south and saw the rushing Trident, and, it just so happens that while Bran is in his coma, his family is surrounded by shadows, his father does plead with the king, Sansa does cry herself to sleep, and Arya does hold secrets hard in her heart. If you can't see that, all I can do is recommend a reread.

The 3EC is showing Bran how "to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes." (Jon I AGOT)

Bran's wolf needed some time for its eyes to open. That's what the 3EC is doing in this vision.

OK, so let's turn to the real questions here: You say the first shadow is Sandor, the second is Barristan and the third is Ilyn. I agree the first is Sandor, but I say the second is Jaime, and I strongly suspect the third is Petyr.

You say these are real time visual observations so you limit the field to persons at Castle Darry on the night of Arya's trial (Jaime was at or near the Trident searching for Arya, and presumably he rejoined the party within a day or two, but you eliminate him so that limits the field to Castle Darry). But the why did he only see shadows? Where was Sandor when he saw him? Was it when he dumped Mycah's body in front of The Ned? Ironically, you accuse others of being too literal in their interpretations, but you are limiting the field to what Bran can "see" while flying overhead in some form. And the shadows, all three of them are standing around The Ned, Arya, and Sansa. So what is Bran actually "seeing" as he flies overhead? You're the one being too literal.

The only description we have of the first shadow is dark as ash with the face of a hound. Even though Sandor wears "soot-dark armor" (Tyrion I, Game 9), you tell us he is not ash dark in color, and you tell us to ignore the burn scars about his face. Although the hound wears a helm "fashioned in the likeness of a snarling black hound" (Tyrion I, Game 9), you tell us his face is human, so we should ignore that too. Instead, you tell us that Bran "sees through to the inner character of each shadow, and he sees that one was abused/burned, brutal but loyal, and does not make his own decisions."

So, as we consider candidates for the three shadows you want us to eliminate any character to present at Castle Darry the night of Arya's trial because Bran would not have... um, literally seen them as he flew overhead in some form, but then you tell us that Bran sees the inner character of each shadow. So, I think your logic is inconsistent. You want us to eliminate characters because Bran can't see them because they aren't there, but then Bran doesn't see the characters that are there, he sees through to their inner character.

Leaving aside the third shadow for a moment, the first two are described metaphorically by The Grorge for the reader to add mystery. The first are easy to figure out based on what we know after 16 chapters in 1996, but the third is the mystery. The George wants his readers to be asking, who is this third shadow? Who is this threat looming larger than Joffrey's sworn sword who would have ridden down Arya if he'd found her before Jory did, and Cersei's brother/lover who pushed Bran out a window? Not until the end of Storm, which is the end of the first act of ASOIAF, do we learn that Petyr set everything in motion to bring down House Stark.That's why the shadows are shadows, not because Bran is flying overhead like Peter Pan and sees into their souls, but because the storyteller is setting up the mystery of what is really going on in the War of the Five Kings.

All we know about the second shadow is that it's armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Now, you told us that Bran wasn't looking at the figures there on the ground (even though they had to be there on the ground standing around his father and sisters as he flew overhead), but that he was looking through to their inner characters. And this is why you cast doubt on Jaime, since Bran would not have found Jaime's character to be beautiful. So you tell us to ignore the actual armor, which was like the sun--golden and beautiful--even though we know Jaime wears "the white cloak of the Kingsguard over his golden armor" (Eddard II, Game 12), and the author described Jaime as having "hair bright as beaten gold," "tall and golden, with flashing green eyes," who "looked more like the knights from the stories," "twin to Queen Cersei," who was "beautiful as men say," with "long golden hair" and emerald green eyes. Barristan on the other hand, as you say, has a noble nature, much more so than Jaime. But aren't these three shadows menacing? How does Barristan menace House Stark? And once again you jump past your own reasoning against Jaimie (Bran wasn't looking at the armor but the inner nature of the character) and reference how Barristan was described wearing "an intricate suit of white enameled scales, brilliant as a field of new-fallen snow, with silver chasings and clasps that glittered in the sun." So, is Bran seeing the armor or not?

You say that The George doesn't mean for these shadows to be malevolent, that he's using them to contrast brutality, beauty, and mortality, but I think you are way off the reservation in that. These are shadows. Physical shadows are a dark area produced by a body coming between light and a surface. But shadows are used to describe a proximate, ominous presence. They evoke doom and gloom, not beauty.

Brynden is using these shadows to show Brandon there are threats to his family, and a storm is coming. But as I said above, The storyteller is using these shadows to add mystery for the reader. He knows (or I guess assumes since you're having trouble getting it :P ) the first are easy to figure out based on what we know after 16 chapters in 1996, but the third is the mystery. The George wants his readers to be asking, who is this third shadow?

You make good arguments for Ilyn as the third shadow. I find them unconvincing, but they are good. I think it's Petyr. We don't need to be limited to characters at Castle Darry on the night of Arya's trial. Bran was lying in a coma. He still hadn't learned to open his third eye. He still hadn't learned to slip inside a raven and see with its eyes. These were visions inspired by Brynden.

The third shadow 1) looms over the other two shadows 2) like a giant in stone armor, 3a) with no face, 3b) but darkness and thick black blood.

1) That he looms over the other two shadows should suggest that he or she is the greatest threat to House Stark. Since Ilyn is the man who actually lops off The Ned's head, he's a good candidate. But he was just following the orders of King Joffrey. Joffrey is a nasty little cuss, but he's a small person who ends up getting whacked himself, as set up by Petyr. And Petyr is the one who whispered in Joffrey's ear, which led to Joffrey defying his regent's wishes. Petyr is also the one who arranged to have Janos and Ilyn carry out the execution before Varys or the King's regent could stop it. But more importantly, Petyr, with malice toward House Stark initiated the War of the Five Kings, betrayed The Ned, continued to fool Catelyn, and continues to play Sansa. He is the primary antagonist to House Stark in the first act. He is the big bad here. And maybe you will recall that as Jaime and Sandor rode against each other in the Hand's Tourney, Petyr loomed over them in the viewing stands wagering on the outcome.

2) The likeness to a giant in stone armor is a bit of a red herring. First we see that Tyrion is described ironically as a giant. And much much later we must allow for the possibility that he might be carrying greyscale. Then we're introduced to Gregor, the Mountain that Rides, who wears a stone fist atop his helm. And after Qyburn does his thing, he looks like a perfect fit except for the fact that he's not more important to the story than Sandor and Jaime.Then, four years later, at the end of the first act, we read this...

Sansa VI, Storm 68

3a) I think this is a clue that Petyr hired a Faceless Man to kill the Ned before Robert named him Hand, thus explaining the Faceless Man in the Black Cells who was sent with Yoren, but I'll leave that alone for now since most folks seem to think I'm off my rocker about that.

3b) This seems to be why most readrs conclude Gregor is the third shadow. But I recall this...

Eddard XV, Game 58

Darkness is usually associated with evil. And moths, as opposed to butterflies, are creatures of the night. The moth symbolizes corruption, decay and death. Thick black blood also symbolizes death. After blood loses oxygen it darkens until it appears to be nearly black.

As for my comments regarding Bran's vision across the Narrow Sea and beyond the Wall, I was trying to show how Bran III, Game 17 is an outine of ASOIAF.

I hope you'll forgive a brief answer to these many paragraphs, but you're not bringing up any new arguments. I've addressed these already. Petyr is the least convincing of your candidates, as even he doesn't identify himself with the Giant of Braavos. We agree on Sandor, I think, but his presence at the Trident makes my version all the more stronger. We have no idea when Jaime rejoined the king's party, so I'd rather not speculate as to where he was during Arya's trial. I have not limited candidates to those at her trial, merely those in the vicinity of the Trident when Bran is in his coma and his family are present there.

As I've said, and said, and said again... my issue with Jaime is not that he wasn't present during Arya's trial, but that Bran has never found Jaime to be beautiful. Jaime is the weakest of Lannister candidates, so I'll not trouble to repeat myself again. Far stronger cases can be made for Joffrey and Cersei, but they too are thus poor contestants in Bran's beauty contest.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Fill it in with what? Fan fiction? Why should I want to do that? To make the second shadow conform to a seven year old boy's concept of beauty? It makes no sense...

The Grey Mists are the North. They are the curtain of Bran's consciousness. At the end of the dream, they shudder, and dissolve to reveal his waking world. The dream opens with their curtain, and closes with it.

A great many things in that 1993 letter are no longer accurate, but I don't disagree with your overall sentiment. I do think this dream serves to realign the reader's priorities. Rather than the petty dangers facing Bran's family, and the realm, the real reason Bran must live is because Winter is Coming, and that is the true threat. I think we agree on that bit.

Skinchanging has nothing at all to do with the realtime interpretation of the dream. You should read up on out of body experiences and spirit flight. I did mention these in my answer earlier, that you apparently didn't see...

Catelyn has nothing to do with this part of the vision. You are free to draw that connection, but you can't blame others if they just don't see it. As I said to another commenter, I believe there is still yet much more to learn regarding the weirwoods in general, and the Winterfell godswood specifically.

Because, Brynden Rivers doesn't want Bran to see Jaime. Seeing Jaime makes Bran scream and fall faster. Brynden Rivers wants Bran to Fly, not cry.

Have you read these adjacent four chapters recently? Everything Bran saw around his family played out as he was in his coma. This is fairly straightforward for most readers, I think. You are free to your interpretation, but the text speaks for itself.

He used a drone.

LOL, seriously though, you should check out the motif of spirit flight in shamanism. The 3EC is sharing terrible knowledge with Bran. Bran is in spirit flight, and is at once cognizant of "the realm and everyone in it." He sees not only the superficial, but the hidden truths as well. He was in his coma for a long time.

While in his coma, he looked south and saw the rushing Trident, and, it just so happens that while Bran is in his coma, his family is surrounded by shadows, his father does plead with the king, Sansa does cry herself to sleep, and Arya does hold secrets hard in her heart. If you can't see that, all I can do is recommend a reread.

The 3EC is showing Bran how "to read the truth that people hid behind their eyes." (Jon I AGOT)

Bran's wolf needed some time for its eyes to open. That's what the 3EC is doing in this vision.

I hope you'll forgive a brief answer to these many paragraphs, but you're not bringing up any new arguments. I've addressed these already. Petyr is the least convincing of your candidates, as even he doesn't identify himself with the Giant of Braavos. We agree on Sandor, I think, but his presence at the Trident makes my version all the more stronger. We have no idea when Jaime rejoined the king's party, so I'd rather not speculate as to where he was during Arya's trial. I have not limited candidates to those at her trial, merely those in the vicinity of the Trident when Bran is in his coma and his family are present there.

As I've said, and said, and said again... my issue with Jaime is not that he wasn't present during Arya's trial, but that Bran has never found Jaime to be beautiful. Jaime is the weakest of Lannister candidates, so I'll not trouble to repeat myself again. Far stronger cases can be made for Joffrey and Cersei, but they too are thus poor contestants in Bran's beauty contest.

Few truer words have ever been spoken. I guess closing arguments have been made, so it's time for the judge to charge the jury. :) To bad we'll likely never get a definitive answer in the text. Maybe we'll find out in an SSM someday... Or not.

[Voice]

Few truer words have ever been spoken. I guess closing arguments have been made, so it's time for the judge to charge the jury. :) To bad we'll likely never get a definitive answer in the text. Maybe we'll find out in an SSM someday... Or not.

:cheers:

I very much agree. I attend cons from time to time and would love to ask this of Mr Martin. Mayhaps I should start lobbying the BwB and get it on the list of Q's for George. Until then, it remains a rich subject for subjective debate.