Sansa Lannister's Claim to Casterly Rock

[The Fourth Head]

I have never considered this and I have never seen a topic devoted to it, though no doubt, it has been discussed in depth in the past.

In reaction to the thread analysing whether Sansa can get an annulment from Tyrion, what if the opposite applies? What would happen if Sansa's marriage was not annulled and Tyrion died publicly? (ie- perhaps attempting to take Casterly Rock?)

Would that make Sansa Lannister 4th in line to the Rock after Cercei, Tommen, and Myrcella?

Obviously, the problem for Sansa with Tyrion still being alive is that he is guilty of the murder of the Lord of Casterly Rock and of regicide of a Lannister family King, so if he still lives, it bizzarely, weakens her chances of being accepted by the Westerlands, and Tyrion doesn't seem currently able to rule by force, unless Dany accepts him and Dany wins westeros- a massive IF.

So if Tyrion died, lets consider other stumbling blocks. She is suspected as an accomplice to Joffrey's death, but she is as yet, untried and unconvicted of that crime and she is innocent in any case. If she won a trial, or if the charges were dropped on Cercei's death, and Tommen and Mycella both died for political reasons (heavily forecasted though by no means a given) then would that technically make Sansa the Lady of the Rock, in the same way Lysa was the Lady of the Vale through marriage as the sole survivor of the main branch of the family (barring Jamie)?

Legally, I think it would, and legally she would be free to marry someone else, thus ending the Lannister name as Lords of the Rock.

Obviously, it's very hard to imagine a situation where the remaining Lannisters would accept Sansa willingly, but under duress perhaps? Why not?

If Sansa can threaten the Westerlands with Riverlands (who have a major axe to grind with the Lannisters, who allegedly wish to be rid of the Freys, who in theory accept LF as their overlord and who wish to see Edmure freed) and the Vale (perhaps through betrothal to Harry, and due to the Vale's hatred of the Lannisters for supposedly killing their lord and their desire to fight for honour) with the added implied threat of Sansa' northern claim ontop, would the Lannisters be seriously cowed by such a bluff, imagined or real, and be more receptive to accept Lady Lannister as the legally entitled Lady of the Rock?

I think there is a strong possibility of that happening under those conditions. A courteous polite Sansa Lannister is just the person to make them swallow such a proposition and evade war, in the same way without Cecei, Tommen and Myrcella around, the Lannisters would have their own issues resolving the Lordship, as Daven is Castellan, but not in line, even of the remaining lannisters- I think Lancel alone outranks him.

Furthermore, would the Westerland bannermen really fight to the death over what is technically in that scenario, her's by rights? As bluffs go, it could be a brilliant one.

Wouldn't that be something very sweet as Tywin's legacy? For him to have acted out a "Rains Of Castamere" moment on the Starks, for his only act of "mercy" being to marry the Stark daughter to his hated son whom he had no intentions of allowing to inherit the Rock, as a sadistic form of humiliation and retribution to the sole surviving Stark, and a way of furthering the Lannister name by taking Winterfell in Lannister name through her, only for it to entirely backfire, and see Sansa end up the Lady of the Rock through Tyrion's name, and then marry someone else who ends the Lannister name for good as rulers of the Rock?

As Karma goes, it's absolutely perfect. That thought seriously cracks me up and an ideal form of poetic justice, with Tywin dead and Sansa smugly sitting on his high lords chair. It seems almost too perfect as a final place for Sansa to end up- not as Lady of Winterfell where here marriage would end the Stark name as rulers and steps on the toes of Jon, Bran and Rickon, but as the Lady of the Rock. As the new politically savvy schemer in the West?

Further, in the event of Cercei and Tommen dying in KL, with Sansa enjoying the tacit support (real or imagined) of the Vale, the North, the Riverlands AND the Westerlands, wouldn't the Tyrell's be scared into concede the throne due to the absence of any claim, and majorly inferior numbers?

[Mladen]

Whose?

Sansa Stark has no claim to Casterly Rock, since and I hope OP knows this, she is not born Lannister. Cersei is current Lady of the Rock, and her children are the heirs. This is due to fact that Tyrion is disinherited since he is found guilty of Kingslaying and is a kinslayer.

[The Bittersteel]

No, she has no claim at all. This is a common mistake that is popping up a lot at the moment. No shared blood, no claim. Lancel Lannister is third in line (bit dodgy with the whole faith thing) and after that it's his younger brother. Lysa is the regent for her son in the same way Cersei is for her children, or was. They're like caretakers, once the rightful heir comes of age they lose all official power. For example if Robert Arryn predeceased Lysa she would no longer have any power in the Vale.

[Boarsbane]

There is still Kevan's boys, Daven, Damion, and the Lannisters of Lannisport who would all be preferable to the Western lords over Tyrion's wife. Tyrion is a joke amongst the westermen and his wife is a little girl so I have a hard time picturing her ever claiming them through her marriage.

[Baelor Blacktyde]

She will have a claim to Casterly Rock - the best and only real claim, the right of conquest! She will marry Harry the Heir, unite the North, the Vale and the Riverlands behind her, push Littlefinger out the Moon door, and ride at the head of her knights to Casterly Rock with Tom of Sevens to have the last Lannisters hear him perform The Reynes of Castamere, with the words changed to The Lanns of Casterley.

Remember, you heard it here first.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Zero. No Lannister ancestor means no claim at all.

You may be confused by the odd widow not being kicked out of her home by some second cousin of her husband, but that doesn't mean that the widow inherits.

[Maester Pedant]

Sansa has no claim to Casterly Rock, because she was not born a Lannister. You don't get in the line of succession because you marry into the family. That would be the same as Kate Middleton becoming a potential successor to the British Crown just because she married William. That's just not how it works.

[The Fourth Head]

In the scenario that Cercei, Tommen and Myrcella died, wouldn't her Lannister name alone make her more palatable as a ruler under the threat of a claim by right of conquest from the Vale, the Riverlands and the North? Couldn't that earn her victory without bloodshed due to the absence of a decent alternative?

[Maester Pedant]

In the scenario that Cercei, Tommen and Myrcella died, wouldn't her Lannister name alone make her more palatable as a ruler under the threat of a claim by right of conquest from the Vale, the Riverlands and the North? Couldn't that earn her victory without bloodshed due to the absence of a decent alternative?

There are plenty of decent, Lannister by blood alternatives. So no. People don't even think of her as Sansa Lannister. I can't even remember if she is ever addressed as such or mentioned under that name. She is Sansa Stark, everyone knows her as Sansa Stark. Plus, she is the heir to Winterfell and the King in the North. Let's not forget the major war between the Lannisters and the Starks, and how Robb Stark ravaged the Westerlands. So no. I don't think she would ever be considered acceptable by the bannerman of House Lannister. The Lannisters have rules the Westerlands for thousands of years. I doubt anyone but a Lannister, or at least someone with a strong blood connection with the Lannisters could rule the Westerlands successfully.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

In the scenario that Cercei, Tommen and Myrcella died, wouldn't her Lannister name alone make her more palatable as a ruler under the threat of a claim by right of conquest from the Vale, the Riverlands and the North? Couldn't that earn her victory without bloodshed due to the absence of a decent alternative?

Nope. Conquest is the only way to go for Sansa.

[juanml82]

Zero. No Lannister ancestor means no claim at all.

You may be confused by the odd widow not being kicked out of her home by some second cousin of her husband, but that doesn't mean that the widow inherits.

Such as Lady Dustin. We don't know which competiting claims were at the time of her husband's death, it was a consumated marriage, although we don't know if they had any child who died before AGOT and we don't know the reasons why Ned allowed her to inherit.

Still, it will be extremely hard to pull. There are too many Lannisters and the Westerlords will probably prefer a Lannister by birth than a Lannister by marriage (in a non consummated wedding to boot).

Lancel, BTW, is about to forsake all his rights to enter the Warrior's Sons and that guy marrying at Riverrun is probably going to be killed. Genna's children are called Freys, which doesn't get them much in the popularity department. If Cersei, Tyrion, Tommen and Myrcella all die, the Lannister succession can become a mess.

ETA: We have Janei Lannister, Kevan's youngest daughter. Any bannerman can marry her and become Lord of CR. She's probably the most likely heir.

[The Bittersteel]

Such as Lady Dustin. We don't know which competiting claims were at the time of her husband's death, it was a consumated marriage, although we don't know if they had any child who died before AGOT and we don't know the reasons why Ned allowed her to inherit.

Still, it will be extremely hard to pull. There are too many Lannisters and the Westerlords will probably prefer a Lannister by birth than a Lannister by marriage (in a non consummated wedding to boot).

Lancel, BTW, is about to forsake all his rights to enter the Warrior's Sons and Devan is probably going to be killed. Genna's children are called Freys, which doesn't get them much in the popularity department. If Cersei, Tyrion, Tommen and Myrcella all die, the Lannister succession can become a mess.

I was about to say this. It's the only example I can think of and presumably because there were no alternatives at all. I think House Dustin is extinct

[Fanless Mace]

Blood before marriage. And those who murder family members are often blacklisted. Sansa is pretty far back in line by any measure. But with a few key swords behind her, who knows?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Such as Lady Dustin. We don't know which competiting claims were at the time of her husband's death, it was a consumated marriage, although we don't know if they had any child who died before AGOT and we don't know the reasons why Ned allowed her to inherit.

Lady Dustin did not inherit. She just ruled the lands. The difference: her children by somebody else wouldn't.

That's the issue of not kicking a widow out of her home for a second cousin I mentioned. A child, or a in-law, would provide for her adequately and she wouldn't feel snubbed, but a total foreigner? It's about not being an ass, not about the widow having any claim.

Only in forums you can hear that she is Sansa Lannister, from variety of trolls, haters etc. As far as I know, we haven't ever heard "Sansa Lannister" in the books.As for her claims, unfortunately, she has none to Winterfell, since she is disinherited by Robb. She has the claim through her mother's line to Riverrun and this will be important (as Alayne Baelish) to Harrenhal.

"Lady Lannister" - Stannis. Of course that was just to shut up Jon :dunno:

[Khal Shaggydog]

Sansa has no claim there, since she never consummated her marriage to Tyrion, and never got pregnant. If she did have a son by Tyrion, as the Lannisters wanted, to consolidate their future claim on Winterfell, then your argument about the poetic revenge on the Lannisters could come to pass. But they didn't, so there isn't one.

Sansa may still have a child that can press a claim on Winterfell, as far as most of the South and LF knows, but that only lasts until the reemergence of Bran/Rickon/Robb's will. If any one of Jon, Bran or Rickon (in that order) wants Winterfell and can take it, it is theirs.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think the only way that Sansa could accomplish something like this is if two things happen; One, Tyrion returns alive to Westeros, at least for a little while, and two; Sansa winds up pregnant by someone.........if she had a child that she could pass off as the Lannister heir, then yes, her situation could definately be parallelled with Lysa as Lady of the Vale, and Regent for the Lord of Casterly Rock.

Looking at it, I think it would be kind of funny, although......I more so suspect that while Sansa and Tyrion will themselves come to some type of political truce, I moreso suspect that the story will probably end with Tyrion getting his rights to the Rock from someone on the Throne, but won't really live to have it, an heir will, most likely, his own heir, but.....if not, Sansa could pass off someone's kid as a Lannister, couldn't she?

Honestly, I'm wondering if Tyrion could come up with an heir in time, I'd like to see either Tommen live, or.....Joy get the Rock, either one from Tyrion. I say this because I do expect Tyrion to die, maybe the last chapter.

ETA: I should say, any political truce between Sansa and Tyrion is one thing.....I do think that Sansa's story has many possible directions, but Lady of The Rock isn't one of them. Just tried to look at it from a logical, detached place.

[Sweetgirl205]

No legitimate claim for CR for Sansa. Sansa doesn't even consider herself a Lannister. The only way we will see Sansa at CR is as Tyrion's wife. If Tyrion becomes Dany's Hand, Sansa decides to stay married to him, Tyrion and Sansa are cleared of murder charges,and Tyrion takes CR, then Sansa will be lady of the Rock. There is a possibility that through one of Littlefingers schemes, they will bait the Lannisters into coming out of KL by proclaiming Sansa heir of CR in Tyrion's name.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Let's look at the Vale succession. Lord Arryn died, leaving his son Robert as Lord of the Vale, and his widow Lysa as Robert's regent. Now: Lysa had no claim to the Vale. Lysa's blood relatives, the Tullys, had no claim to the Vale, either. She was but a regent, governing Robert's fiefdom until he reached adulthood. Furthermore: Lysa Arryn remarried - and her husband Petyr Baelish, again, has no claim of his own to the Vale. He's Lord Protector, he weaseled his way into keeping that title (for a year - I think those were the terms of his agreements with the Lords Declarant). But it's agreed upon by all sides that his position is temporary and not hereditary. Should the current Lord Arryn die, his successor will be (Littlefinger assumes) Harrold Hardyng, because of his Arryn blood. No Tully and no Baelish is anywhere in the line of succession.

So: should Sansa ever actually become Lady of Casterly Rock, Tyrion die and Sansa remarry, her new husband will have no claim to the Westerlands, and her potential children by him will have no such claim, either.

Theoretically, at least. Them the rules.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Interesting idea though - does Tommen even stand to still inherit Casterly Rock, given that he is a bastard born of brother and sister?

I would think that, if he survives, and whoever is in power (Aegon, Dany, Stannis, someone else), allows him to return to CR, or stay there (should he retreat there to hide), then it would be up to the Lannisters to decide what they want to do with their own product of family incest. But its an interesting question.

My guess is also that it would depend on who has royal power at the time, and what they want to do with him.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Interesting idea though - does Tommen even stand to still inherit Casterly Rock, given that he is a bastard born of brother and sister?

I would think that, if he survives, and whoever is in power (Aegon, Dany, Stannis, someone else), allows him to return to CR, or stay there (should he retreat there to hide), then it would be up to the Lannisters to decide what they want to do with their own product of family incest. But its an interesting question.

My guess is also that it would depend on who has royal power at the time, and what they want to do with him.

Of course not. Well, that's assuming the Lannisters lose, the Westermen accept that he is indeed a bastard and he is still alive. Taken altogether, exceedingly unlikely.