My Theory On Aegon Vi (Young Griff)

[Demonblade]

Varys opposing Rhaegar in favour of Aerys is not proof that he opposed the Targaryens, quite the opposite, really. Rhaegar may have started a civil war, regardless of who he got behind him. He likely would have won, but as we've seen with the Lannisters winning the War of the Five Kings, (well almost, given that Stannis is still kicking around) the winners of the war may end up losing in the end. Varys opposing a possible civil war was basically Varys doing his job.

Count me among those who believe that this Aegon is the real Aegon. Mummer's Dragon is both a possessive and a possessive of a person of a particular occupation, namely acting. Varys was apprenticed by a troupe of actors, so obviously Mummer's Dragon is referring to him. But that doesn't in itself mean that Aegon is a fake, it merely refers to Aegon as Varys's Dragon.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Varys opposing Rhaegar in favour of Aerys is not proof that he opposed the Targaryens, quite the opposite, really. Rhaegar may have started a civil war, regardless of who he got behind him. He likely would have won, but as we've seen with the Lannisters winning the War of the Five Kings, (well almost, given that Stannis is still kicking around) the winners of the war may end up losing in the end. Varys opposing a possible civil war was basically Varys doing his job.

I agree with this, and I think many forget this whenever they ask why Rhaegar didn't took the throne. In a way, Varys was also protecting Rhaegar, even though he didn't do it willingly. If Rhaegar had tried to take the crown, he was more likely going to be killed. With one word of his father, the KG had killed him. He needed first to secure them and many other nobles on his side. And two, Rhaegar did care about his father.

[CersiGoesCrazy]

Aegon could be Ashara's son by the Mad King who was at Harrenhall when she was "dishonored". Barristan's choice of words sounds like it was unwilling. Barristan says, if he'd gotten her attention by winning the tourney and told her he was in love with her maybe she would not have "looked to Stark" which to me sounds like he means for protection or romance or revenge or all three.

Also, why have Barristan state that Ashara and Danny have the exact same eyes? It could be a set up for Aegon being Ashara's son and a Targ. Maybe the fact they are hidding is that he's illegitimate -- that sounds like a Varys scheme to control the IT.

[Justin Amey]

The switch itself would be difficult to orchestrate, as soon as word was received that Rhaeger fell on the trident, Varys would have to find a baby and make the swap. Because he knows the ins and outs of the red keep i can see him sneaking into Elia's rooms to make the switch. What gets me every time is how did he know the mountain would smash the baby's face until it was unrecognisable?

Now either the fake baby was already dead/face smashed before the mountain came there and he didn't bother to ask questions or it was a coincidence that he also smashed the face without realising it was already that way

OR after the real Aegon was face smashed Varys thought up the plot to put a fake Aegon on the throne. It's also possible that things just worked out perfectly for Varys's plan...but i find that hard to believe.

I am more on the side of wanting Aegon to be real though

The switch would be all that hard under pressure. He already ready had the "Pisswater Prince." As soon as the mad king was resolve to open the gate, all he had to do is go get the pisswater prince, run up to her room and convince elia to make the switch. Also as for the Mountain smashing Aegon head in can say that is mostly luck. Aegon could he just been on the run the with the other Targs if no one was fool by the switch but since everyone was convinced meant it was the most luckiest break ever for him.

As far as fooling Jon Con it would be easy. We all have friends with infant children. How many of us would notice if they were switched? Maybe the women would notice, but not most men.

What guy pays close attention to their buddy's small children?

Educated Nobles...

JC was also desperately in love with Rhaegar and was crushed when he find out that Robert killed him. Now comes in Varys and gives him a baby boy with silver hair and purple eyes and says "I saved Rhaegar's only son". JC would jump at this chance to raise a son of his Beloved, he would never even doubt Varys at all.

Also, when people look at an average face - dark hair/eyes pale skin they actually start looking at person's features and comparing them, however, if you have some striking features - silver hair and purple eyes or dark skin, or almond shaped eyes, or blond hair/green eyes, they will overshadow actual face features. All JC and others are looking at are hair and eyes, not the face. And there been some many years that JC memory of Rhaegar got merged with the boy's features, they didn't have photos then. Unless Rhaegar's boy had tanned skin or other recognizable features that will distinguish him from any other Valyrion -blood baby, one baby is good as another. Only mother or nanny would recognize the distinction and not after many years separation too.

As for Tyrion guess, its because he is smart and able to put hints together. The way the boy and people around him behaved, all excaggerated secrecy, presence of JC and bright blue colored hair (unusual to someone who is raised and cared for by JC and Septa - both Westerosi and not Lys natives), Tyrion just put everything together from the way they acted. Thats first. Second, all people around Tyrion sincerely believed that young Griff is the real deal, if Varys and Illyrio stayed on, Tyrion might have guessed that the boy is the imposter, but they spent maybe like one chapter together and never in presence of both actors.

If Tyrion spent couple of days with all - young Griff, JC, Septa, Illyrio and/or Varys - he might have guessed that not only boy and JC believe him to be Aegon, but he might have figured out the game Illyrio and Varys are playing - the real one, not the one they claim.

I only believe that the boy might be real Aegon, because of GRRM tendency to throw us off with big surprises and just because so many people believed that L+R=J and Dany's destiny so he would introduce real Aegon just to throw off everyone else's expectations.

Also, what Varys told Kevin, why would he lie to dying man with no-one else listening?

JC Doesn't like or trust Varys like most people most ppl, so there's is the doubt that can keep JC level headed.

As for Tyrion, he had all the time in the 5th to think that his story and he was bogus, but he didn't .

[igrewupinKL]

The switch would be all that hard under pressure. He already ready had the "Pisswater Prince." As soon as the mad king was resolve to open the gate, all he had to do is go get the pisswater prince, run up to her room and convince elia to make the switch. Also as for the Mountain smashing Aegon head in can say that is mostly luck. Aegon could he just been on the run the with the other Targs if no one was fool by the switch but since everyone was convinced meant it was the most luckiest break ever for him.

There's so many factors that come into play though. If Rhaeger had lived on the trident then Varys's plan would not have worked. If he was planning this all along then he might have a baby ready, but still, if jaime hadn't killed Aerys and the pyromancer? i mean maybe he did just get lucky. But seriously, don't you think its a little odd that baby Aegon's face was smashed beyond recognition and rhaenys's wasn't?

[Justin Amey]

There's so many factors that come into play though. If Rhaeger had lived on the trident then Varys's plan would not have worked. If he was planning this all along then he might have a baby ready, but still, if jaime hadn't killed Aerys and the pyromancer? i mean maybe he did just get lucky. But seriously, don't you think its a little odd that baby Aegon's face was smashed beyond recognition and rhaenys's wasn't?

He only did it because they were all about to lose and people were betraying house Targ all round them. Seeing that now he is a true Targ loyalist, he to do something. Second The mountian didn't kill Rhaenys, someone else did that, don't know his name off hand.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He only did it because they were all about to lose and people were betraying house Targ all round them. Seeing that now he is a true Targ loyalist, he to do something. Second The mountian didn't kill Rhaenys, someone else did that, don't know his name off hand.

Amory Lorch.

[igrewupinKL]

even if it was two different people, the question still remains

did varys get lucky? or did he have something to do with how the baby died?

[Justin Amey]

Another thing to disprove Aegon being a Blackfyre: Viserys at one point approach the Golden company to hire them to help take back the Realm. If they were so cocern about The BlackFyres- Targ feud, why didn't they kill Viserys, or Dany, or both right then and there. :dunno: That would have settle alot then and there.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Another thing to disprove Aegon being a Blackfyre: Viserys at one point approach the Golden company to hire them to help take back the Realm. If they were so cocern about The BlackFyres- Targ feud, why didn't they kill Viserys, or Dany, or both right then and there. :dunno: That would have settle alot then and there.

No, they just laughed at them and called him a beggar king.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Aegon is the bastard son of Lyanna and Rhaegar . Mummer's dragon. The Mummer's dragon does not indicate whether he his or is not legitimacy but it is the dragon she must fight.

[Other_Jon33]

Hmmm, interesting take, that could mean that the promise Lyanna made to Ned didn't have anything to do with Jon. It Aegon is half Stark then he may have latent warg abilities, which could put him as one of the three heads. What proof have you Greystark?

[Other_Jon33]

To me there is just something fishy about this whole fAegon thing. He comes out of nowhere in the fifth book in the series and the whole baby switch thing, could Varies really convince Elia Martell to go along with it? And why switch just one of Rhaegar's children and not both of them? Then there's the mummer's dragon prophecy by Quaithe and the false dragon prophecy by Moqorro. Who else could the false dragon be? The evidence points more to fAegon not being who they are portraying him to be. I think he is of the Targaryen blood line though. There is a theory that Illyrio is a Blackfyre and fAegon is his son. If anything I think Illyrio could be the grandson of Aerion Brightflame who did live in Lys for a few years and did have a green dragon egg. Aerion could have stolen his brother Egg's pale gold dragon egg and passed both eggs down to his son who would have then passed them down to his own son, Illiryo. I think that could have been the reason Martin describes Illyrio's youth and the young woman he was married to, during Tyrion's POV chapters in DWD. Could she have been a Blackfyre? I always thought there was significance to that statue of Illyrio when he was sixteen. Seems like a splitting image of fAegon, the way it was described. And what about the black dragon egg. If all this is true where did it come from? Why would Illyrio give these eggs to Daenerys and not his own son? I'm probably not the first to come up with this theory but it seems like there is something there. Just not sure what.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Hmmm, interesting take, that could mean that the promise Lyanna made to Ned didn't have anything to do with Jon. It Aegon is half Stark then he may have latent warg abilities, which could put him as one of the three heads. What proof have you Greystark?

Yeah but that completely undermines all of Ned's actions and thoughts. Also, Ned absolutely hates Varys at the beginning of AGoT. He's second on Ned's shit list after all Lannisters. So why would Ned trust his sister's baby with someone he despises? It's not until near the end of AGoT that Ned starts to trust Varys.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

To me there is just something fishy about this whole fAegon thing. He comes out of nowhere in the fifth book in the series and the whole baby switch thing, could Varies really convince Elia Martell to go along with it? And why switch just one of Rhaegar's children and not both of them? Then there's the mummer's dragon prophecy by Quaithe and the false dragon prophecy by Moqorro. Who else could the false dragon be? The evidence points more to fAegon not being who they are portraying him to be. I think he is of the Targaryen blood line though. There is a theory that Illyrio is a Blackfyre and fAegon is his son. If anything I think Illyrio could be the grandson of Aerion Brightflame who did live in Lys for a few years and did have a green dragon egg. Aerion could have stolen his brother Egg's pale gold dragon egg and passed both eggs down to his son who would have then passed them down to his own son, Illiryo. I think that could have been the reason Martin describes Illyrio's youth and the young woman he was married to, during Tyrion's POV chapters in DWD. Could she have been a Blackfyre? I always thought there was significance to that statue of Illyrio when he was sixteen. Seems like a splitting image of fAegon, the way it was described. And what about the black dragon egg. If all this is true where did it come from? Why would Illyrio give these eggs to Daenerys and not his own son? I'm probably not the first to come up with this theory but it seems like there is something there. Just not sure what.

My thoughts exactly man. Part of me feels like Varys' back story is also complete BS. I cannot remember though, is the scene where he shows Tyrion the wizard's body in a box just from the show or was that also in the books? It's been too long!

[Other_Jon33]

I think that scene is just from the show but In the book I believe he does talk about killing the wizard who roasts his nuts/manhood for some spell. Everything about Varys is BS. He claims to abhor magic but seems to have a hand in it. And I've also wondered where did he receive his extensive knowledge of the secret passageways of the Red Keep?

[Other_Jon33]

Just thought of something too. Aegon is too young to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He would have to be at least 17 or 18

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I think that scene is just from the show but In the book I believe he does talk about killing the wizard who roasts his nuts/manhood for some spell. Everything about Varies is BS. He claims to abhor magic but seems to have a hand in it. And I've also wondered where did he receive his extensive knowledge of the secret passageways of the Red Keep?

Not trying to be a dick, but I've noticed the mistake a few times. It's Varys, not Varies.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Just thought of something too. Aegon is too young to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He would have to be at least 17 or 18

He'd be the same age as Robb, more or less. But remember, Tyrion is notoriously bad at guessing people's ages. He admits it a few times.

[Other_Jon33]

Yeah thnx for the spell check, was probably thinking Varies like change or adaptable. Probably a subtle word play by GRRM. Any how I remember that about Tyrion now that someone mentions it.