My Theory On Aegon Vi (Young Griff)

[Rodrik Harlaw]

The OP has raised some of the same issues I've raised in the past. It does seem however, that there is too much "evidence" in the books to discount the theory that Aegon is a Blackfyre in the female line.

He is right, it does seem strange that so much would rest on Connington being convinced that the kid is Rhaegar's son and at the same time, the Golden Company being comfortable with the idea that Aegon's status as a Blackfyre along a maternal line is a sufficient reason to follow him into Westeros.

I think the answer may be people see what they want to see and people will latch on to a reason to follow no matter how tenuous the reason.

Also this is just golden ^

[Frey family reunion]

Well answered sir.

Yet it is still unfitting that such a staunch Targaryen supporter, so causally writes off specific members of the royal family in his plots. It might call into question whether he is loyal to house Targayen as a whole or whether he has other motives.

If you are referring to Illyrio, I highly doubt that he is a staunch Targaryen supporter. And while many believe him to be a Blackfyre, I tend to think his motivation is more personal.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

If you are referring to Illyrio, I highly doubt that he is a staunch Targaryen supporter. And while many believe him to be a Blackfyre, I tend to think his motivation is more personal.

I believe he tries to seem like a staunch Targaryen supporter, although I believe his true motivation comes from the dead owner of the soft hands, he still keeps.

[Rodrik Harlaw]

Woooow. Genius shit. You people never cease to blow my mind. But who and where is this mystery Blackfyre? And if it is fAegon who were his actual parents?

Young Griff, aka Aegon Targaryen VI aka fAegon.

The theory is that Illyrio and Serra are the parents of fAegon.

[Frey family reunion]

I believe he tries to seem like a staunch Targaryen supporter, although I believe his true motivation comes from the dead owner of the soft hands, he still keeps.

agreed

[Hos the Hostage]

OP

Points in support of Aegon that I've come across and my responses:

1. The author confirmed only Rhaenys death, not Aegon's

-Of course he won't, if he is introducing Aegon in book five. (An obsolete point now)

2. He has blonde hair and purple eyes.

-So does Edric Dayne, and several people from Lys.

3. Jon Connington believes in Aegon's credibility.

-The things I do for love.

If I was in JC's place I will hang on to the thinnest ray of hope that some part of Rhaegar is alive. People believe what they like to believe.

4, Why should Varys lie to a dying man(Kevan)?

-The dying man wasn't the only person in that room. In GoT, LF knows several of Varys's littlebirds. Maybe he was lying to Ned, but I think he must have made an effort. Varys trusts no one but himself, maybe Illyrio too. There is no need for him to tell the truth. And what best way to hide a lie than lie to oneself about it? Even to himself, Varys must be thinking of Aegon as the real deal all these years.

5. Tyrion recognizes Aegon

-Tyrion recognizes who the boy is supposed to be. He identifies JC first, iirc. "He may well be a Targaryen after all" indicates Tyrion is not trusting the tale blindly. Also, Tyrion played Cyvasse with the Halfmaester the day before he confronts Aegon. He must have known a lot of stuff he did not share with us in the PoV chapter, I suspect.

6. Golden Company supports Aegon. "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon"

-"Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more"

Blood of a black dragon, I say

7. Varys and Illyrio may not risk Doran identifying the fake boy.

-Doran has no more chance of recognizing Aegon than JC. The boy takes after Rhaegar.

8. There must be a second Dance of the Dragons.

-It can still occur Aegon being a Blackfyre or Brightflame descendant.

9. "Mummer's Dragon" only means a dragon brought forward by Varys the mummer.

-"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

10. Varys warned Aerys about the Lannister betrayal, he had enough time for the baby switch. He also saved Gendry, and is working for the good of the realm

-"The rot in Aerys's rule started with Varys."

Varys turned Aerys against Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the good prince, Aerys was mad. Why collude with Aerys against Rhaegar if Varys wanted the welfare of the realm? If Varys had such love for Rhaegar's son, enough to sacrifice a common man's child in its place, why turn Aerys against Rhaegar? Maybe Rhaegar was a secret Dark Sorceror? We don't know, but what Varys says and what he does are somewhat contradictory, at least w.r.t the peace in the realm. He could have warned Ned about Tywin's trap of foraging led by the Mountain. And several other examples. Starting from Aerys, to Robert, the war of five kings to the murder of Kevan.

The only truthful thing said by Varys, in my opinion is this:

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more no less."

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Points in support of Aegon that I've come across and my responses:

1. The author confirmed only Rhaenys death, not Aegon's

-Of course he won't, if he is introducing Aegon in book five. (An obsolete point now)

2. He has blonde hair and purple eyes.

-So does Edric Dayne, and several people from Lys.

3. Jon Connington believes in Aegon's credibility.

-The things I do for love.

If I was in JC's place I will hang on to the thinnest ray of hope that some part of Rhaegar is alive. People believe what they like to believe.

4, Why should Varys lie to a dying man(Kevan)?

-The dying man wasn't the only person in that room. In GoT, LF knows several of Varys's littlebirds. Maybe he was lying to Ned, but I think he must have made an effort. Varys trusts no one but himself, maybe Illyrio too. There is no need for him to tell the truth. And what best way to hide a lie than lie to oneself about it? Even to himself, Varys must be thinking of Aegon as the real deal all these years.

5. Tyrion recognizes Aegon

-Tyrion recognizes who the boy is supposed to be. He identifies JC first, iirc. "He may well be a Targaryen after all" indicates Tyrion is not trusting the tale blindly. Also, Tyrion played Cyvasse with the Halfmaester the day before he confronts Aegon. He must have known a lot of stuff he did not share with us in the PoV chapter, I suspect.

6. Golden Company supports Aegon. "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon"

-"Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more"

Blood of a black dragon, I say

7. Varys and Illyrio may not risk Doran identifying the fake boy.

-Doran has no more chance of recognizing Aegon than JC. The boy takes after Rhaegar.

8. There must be a second Dance of the Dragons.

-It can still occur Aegon being a Blackfyre or Brightflame descendant.

9. "Mummer's Dragon" only means a dragon brought forward by Varys the mummer.

-"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

10. Varys warned Aerys about the Lannister betrayal, he had enough time for the baby switch. He also saved Gendry, and is working for the good of the realm

-"The rot in Aerys's rule started with Varys."

Varys turned Aerys against Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the good prince, Aerys was mad. Why collude with Aerys against Rhaegar if Varys wanted the welfare of the realm? If Varys had such love for Rhaegar's son, enough to sacrifice a common man's child in its place, why turn Aerys against Rhaegar? Maybe Rhaegar was a secret Dark Sorceror? We don't know, but what Varys says and what he does are somewhat contradictory, at least w.r.t the peace in the realm. He could have warned Ned about Tywin's trap of foraging led by the Mountain. And several other examples. Starting from Aerys, to Robert, the war of five kings to the murder of Kevan.

The only truthful thing said by Varys, in my opinion is this:

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more no less."

Spot on

[manishramesh]

Points in support of Aegon that I've come across and my responses:

1. The author confirmed only Rhaenys death, not Aegon's

-Of course he won't, if he is introducing Aegon in book five. (An obsolete point now)

2. He has blonde hair and purple eyes.

-So does Edric Dayne, and several people from Lys.

3. Jon Connington believes in Aegon's credibility.

-The things I do for love.

If I was in JC's place I will hang on to the thinnest ray of hope that some part of Rhaegar is alive. People believe what they like to believe.

4, Why should Varys lie to a dying man(Kevan)?

-The dying man wasn't the only person in that room. In GoT, LF knows several of Varys's littlebirds. Maybe he was lying to Ned, but I think he must have made an effort. Varys trusts no one but himself, maybe Illyrio too. There is no need for him to tell the truth. And what best way to hide a lie than lie to oneself about it? Even to himself, Varys must be thinking of Aegon as the real deal all these years.

5. Tyrion recognizes Aegon

-Tyrion recognizes who the boy is supposed to be. He identifies JC first, iirc. "He may well be a Targaryen after all" indicates Tyrion is not trusting the tale blindly. Also, Tyrion played Cyvasse with the Halfmaester the day before he confronts Aegon. He must have known a lot of stuff he did not share with us in the PoV chapter, I suspect.

6. Golden Company supports Aegon. "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon"

-"Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more"

Blood of a black dragon, I say

7. Varys and Illyrio may not risk Doran identifying the fake boy.

-Doran has no more chance of recognizing Aegon than JC. The boy takes after Rhaegar.

8. There must be a second Dance of the Dragons.

-It can still occur Aegon being a Blackfyre or Brightflame descendant.

9. "Mummer's Dragon" only means a dragon brought forward by Varys the mummer.

-"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

10. Varys warned Aerys about the Lannister betrayal, he had enough time for the baby switch. He also saved Gendry, and is working for the good of the realm

-"The rot in Aerys's rule started with Varys."

Varys turned Aerys against Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the good prince, Aerys was mad. Why collude with Aerys against Rhaegar if Varys wanted the welfare of the realm? If Varys had such love for Rhaegar's son, enough to sacrifice a common man's child in its place, why turn Aerys against Rhaegar? Maybe Rhaegar was a secret Dark Sorceror? We don't know, but what Varys says and what he does are somewhat contradictory, at least w.r.t the peace in the realm. He could have warned Ned about Tywin's trap of foraging led by the Mountain. And several other examples. Starting from Aerys, to Robert, the war of five kings to the murder of Kevan.

The only truthful thing said by Varys, in my opinion is this:

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more no less."

Totally agree, also the biggest argument against faegon being real is that the martells we're not told about his survival, it doesn't make sense to keep them in the dark no matter how you look at it

[Melifeather]

Prince Aegon is real and was the identity of the baby guarded by the Kingsguard at the tower of joy. Rhaegar may have enlisted Varys's help with the switch and with the assistance of Elia's handmaiden, Ashara Dayne, they planned to take him to the safety of Dorne.

Jon Snow was born of Lyanna hidden in the crypts of Winterfell. My best guess for the father is Mance Rayder. I don't think Lyanna meant to skip out on the arranged marriage to Robert, but an unintended pregnancy may have been enough to cause her to hide.

[Justin Amey]

Young Griff, aka Aegon Targaryen VI aka fAegon.

The theory is that Illyrio and Serra are the parents of fAegon.

if that was the case why in the world would illyrio give his only son up to a total stranger to try to conquer foreign land? he could just take over pentos if that was the case :dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Points in support of Aegon that I've come across and my responses:

1. The author confirmed only Rhaenys death, not Aegon's

-Of course he won't, if he is introducing Aegon in book five. (An obsolete point now)

2. He has blonde hair and purple eyes.

-So does Edric Dayne, and several people from Lys.

3. Jon Connington believes in Aegon's credibility.

-The things I do for love.

If I was in JC's place I will hang on to the thinnest ray of hope that some part of Rhaegar is alive. People believe what they like to believe.

4, Why should Varys lie to a dying man(Kevan)?

-The dying man wasn't the only person in that room. In GoT, LF knows several of Varys's littlebirds. Maybe he was lying to Ned, but I think he must have made an effort. Varys trusts no one but himself, maybe Illyrio too. There is no need for him to tell the truth. And what best way to hide a lie than lie to oneself about it? Even to himself, Varys must be thinking of Aegon as the real deal all these years.

5. Tyrion recognizes Aegon

-Tyrion recognizes who the boy is supposed to be. He identifies JC first, iirc. "He may well be a Targaryen after all" indicates Tyrion is not trusting the tale blindly. Also, Tyrion played Cyvasse with the Halfmaester the day before he confronts Aegon. He must have known a lot of stuff he did not share with us in the PoV chapter, I suspect.

6. Golden Company supports Aegon. "Black or Red, a dragon is still a dragon"

-"Some contracts are writ in ink, and some in blood. I say no more"

Blood of a black dragon, I say

7. Varys and Illyrio may not risk Doran identifying the fake boy.

-Doran has no more chance of recognizing Aegon than JC. The boy takes after Rhaegar.

8. There must be a second Dance of the Dragons.

-It can still occur Aegon being a Blackfyre or Brightflame descendant.

9. "Mummer's Dragon" only means a dragon brought forward by Varys the mummer.

-"Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

10. Varys warned Aerys about the Lannister betrayal, he had enough time for the baby switch. He also saved Gendry, and is working for the good of the realm

-"The rot in Aerys's rule started with Varys."

Varys turned Aerys against Rhaegar. Rhaegar was the good prince, Aerys was mad. Why collude with Aerys against Rhaegar if Varys wanted the welfare of the realm? If Varys had such love for Rhaegar's son, enough to sacrifice a common man's child in its place, why turn Aerys against Rhaegar? Maybe Rhaegar was a secret Dark Sorceror? We don't know, but what Varys says and what he does are somewhat contradictory, at least w.r.t the peace in the realm. He could have warned Ned about Tywin's trap of foraging led by the Mountain. And several other examples. Starting from Aerys, to Robert, the war of five kings to the murder of Kevan.

The only truthful thing said by Varys, in my opinion is this:

"Power resides where men believe it resides. No more no less."

1 that is enough t

2 JonCon would know this too so how would Aegon stand out despite there being look alike out the?

3 JonCon distrust for Varys helps me believe he is level headed

:frown5: You just turned Varys into a delusional fool. there already false pretenders on the throne right now, why would Varys do the same thing to try to put another pretender on the throne, that asking for more problems.

5 i dont get it, please elaborate.

6 i already talk about that.

i'll speak on the rest later.

Prince Aegon is real and was the identity of the baby guarded by the Kingsguard at the tower of joy. Rhaegar may have enlisted Varys's help with the switch and with the assistance of Elia's handmaiden, Ashara Dayne, they planned to take him to the safety of Dorne.

Jon Snow was born of Lyanna hidden in the crypts of Winterfell. My best guess for the father is Mance Rayder. I don't think Lyanna meant to skip out on the arranged marriage to Robert, but an unintended pregnancy may have been enough to cause her to hide.

:bang: :eek: :blushing: :crying: :dunno: bruh!

[Hos the Hostage]

OP:

2. I agree that in normal situations, JC's trust in the boy's identity means he looks like Rhaegar, at least when the boy has turned nearly 18. But, he took charge of the boy when he was 5 or 6. I reckon JC could not have seen any resemblance between the boy and Rhaegar at that time, even if the boy was really Rhaegar's son. But when he saw the boy growing up, in the belief that he was Rhaegar's son, he could have easily overlooked the dissimilarities between the boy and Rhaegar. [ I am bad at telling who children look like, even after they become adults. Honestly, I still can't say if my younger brother (who is 17 yrs old) looks like my mother or my father. ]

He was ready to accept anything. As I said in point 3

3. JC not trusting Varys:

Even Ned Stark, who trusted Petyr Baelish, did not trust Varys. Jon Con was Aerys's Hand and Rhaegar's close friend, hence he must have known the Spider well. He has every reason to be skeptical of Varys. That does not make him level headed in all aspects of life.

IIRC, JC never recall any facial similarities between Rhaegar and Aegon. He thinks of the eyes, and Rhaegar's response to Griffin Roost. Of course, he had no need to think how similar they look if he had been fostering the boy for years, still..

Regarding Aegon's looks, I think we will need to read the thoughts of Arianne(who knew how Elia looked like), Jaime, Barristan or Dany(who knew how both Rhaegar and Elia looked like). Unfortunately for us and fortunately for Varys, Arianne is not very reliable and Jaime is not in KL.

From my viewpoint, Varys is neither delusional nor a fool. He is very acute. And he and Illyrio aims high, not just Pentos.

5. I have seen people taking Tyrion 'finding out' who the boy is to be proof that Aegon is real. Tyrion was suspicious of the whole game(Griff, Illyrio, Varys everything) from the start. So he played Cyvasse with Haldon for secrets. We don't read what he found out, only that he won. Next day, he confronts Aegon about his true identity. I hope that answers your question.

[BondiSnow]

Maybe someone mentioned but:

From a 2005 reading of Tyrion II:

"Illyrio says he wants to give Young Griff his blessings and has a gift for him in the chests. Haldon tells him there is no time for the litter. Illyrio gets angry and says there are things Griff must know.

Haldon eyes Tyrion and then begins to speak in another language. Tyrion cannot tell what it is but think it might be Volantene. He catches a few words that come close to High Valyrian. The words he catches are, queen, dragon, and sword."

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/156odh/spoilers_all_complete_analysis_of_the_blackfyre/

Hint at Blackfyre the bastard sword, which GRRM scrapped in the final copy.

[Justin Amey]

Maybe someone mentioned but:

From a 2005 reading of Tyrion II:

"Illyrio says he wants to give Young Griff his blessings and has a gift for him in the chests. Haldon tells him there is no time for the litter. Illyrio gets angry and says there are things Griff must know.

Haldon eyes Tyrion and then begins to speak in another language. Tyrion cannot tell what it is but think it might be Volantene. He catches a few words that come close to High Valyrian. The words he catches are, queen, dragon, and sword."

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/156odh/spoilers_all_complete_analysis_of_the_blackfyre/

Hint at Blackfyre the bastard sword, which GRRM scrapped in the final copy.

Blackfyre Is the sword used by Aegon the first Targ, the last person to use was a Blackfyre that doen't mean the sword is for Blackfyre authority, but for Targ Authority.

[Justin Amey]

Two other things Varys that makes me believe Aegon is the real deal.

1 Why is world would Varys be so dead set on putting a fake Targ on the throne knowing the consequences that could happen. Ned found out about the Robert B *kids* and a massive war happen over it believing it is theirs by right. Varys would run the risk down line of someone finding out about Aegon if he's fake and another war could happen, and dragons could be in the mix. I know for a fact that Varys doesn't want that.

2 Tyrion's is the master of psychology not Varys especially not almost 20 years ago. Tyrion is the type of person that can judge a person mindset base on their adventures, Not Varys. I doubt that Varys would perfectly know JonCon's state of mind of trick him into believing in a fake Targ at first meeting. I don't think that is where is skill lays.

[Woofless]

The Iron born are the Kraken. Most people believe it means Greyjoy and Blackfyre, Lannister and JonCon, QM and fAegon.

You mean it doesn't refer to Moqorro (Black Flame) travelling with Victarion?

[Rodrik Harlaw]

How could Varys have known Gregor would smash baby Aegon's face beyond recognition? It's unlikely this could have been planned. Even Tywin was surprised by the brutality of it.

[CrannogXninja]

Lol out loud at everyone wondering how westeros best spy would have known Aegons face was going to get smashed. Maybe Tywin did give the orders, and Varys little bird heard.

[Kikajon]

Maybe it was not really so badly smashed at the time of death. But someone needed it to be badly smashed and I guess that transporting a body of a small infant without taking much care would almost accomplish the deed by itself. It would have maybe only necessary to drop the corpse a couple of time. I think that it could be easily arranged post mortem.

[BondiSnow]

Blackfyre Is the sword used by Aegon the first Targ, the last person to use was a Blackfyre that doen't mean the sword is for Blackfyre authority, but for Targ Authority.

Valid point

[fuelpagan_tw]

Blackfyre Is the sword used by Aegon the first Targ, the last person to use was a Blackfyre that doen't mean the sword is for Blackfyre authority, but for Targ Authority.

The last person we know who was in possession of the sword Blackfyre was Bittersteel. Illyrio makes a point for Young Griff to wear the sword. Upon seeing the sword all rebuttals from the Golden Company stop.

How could Varys have known Gregor would smash baby Aegon's face beyond recognition? It's unlikely this could have been planned. Even Tywin was surprised by the brutality of it.

Maybe Gregor has a past history of killing babies this way. Or Varys had a third party offer a reward to Gregor's company for the person whom smashes Aegon's head against the wall. There are several ways Varys could have made sure the pisswater prince was unrecognizable.