Prologue GoT - strange NW behavior

[Jo498]

I started re-reading GoT a few days ago. I stumbled already in the prologue. We know the NW is short of people and noone expected to meet Others. But in the prologue it seems that Ser Waymar Royce is clearly in command of a ranging party of three, although he has no scouting/ranging experience to speak of, being only 18 years of age and having said his vows but half a year earlier or so. Whereas the old guy has decades of experience and Will about five years + lots of poaching before that. What about one losing ones former privileges when joining the NW? In any case it seems very stupid to let an arrogant greenhorn command a party ranging as far as 7 day's ride from the wall.

[Shinjinobrave]

Crimes are forgiven, but rank never seems to go away.

Throughout the book we see that although there are bastards at the top, there are no noblemen at the bottom.

Marsh also insists in DWD that Jon have a noble steward, not a prostitute, as this is more acceptable.

[Northern Nomad]

Jeor says exactly the same later in the book; he choose Waymar because of political reasons.

[Jo498]

Thanks! It's obvious that Royce would not have followed orders from a commoner. But one could have sent him a few times with a more experienced nobleman like Benjen, to get more experienced and get used following orders. Of course his foolishness is needed for the plot, the other two would have turned back without encountering the Others.

[Mighty Jim 83]

I started re-reading GoT a few days ago. I stumbled already in the prologue. We know the NW is short of people and noone expected to meet Others. But in the prologue it seems that Ser Waymar Royce is clearly in command of a ranging party of three, although he has no scouting/ranging experience to speak of, being only 18 years of age and having said his vows but half a year earlier or so. Whereas the old guy has decades of experience and Will about five years + lots of poaching before that. What about one losing ones former privileges when joining the NW? In any case it seems very stupid to let an arrogant greenhorn command a party ranging as far as 7 day's ride from the wall.

Isn't part of the point the fact that Will and the Old Guy are so experienced - if it were just Wildlings they were dealing with, they'd have kept him out of trouble, and all would have been fine.

Obviously, no one planned for White Walkers...

[Lady Woodland]

this post may not last & it's probably in the wrong spot & has another theory which I know everyone loves.

That said however, when I watched the 1st episode with the W & D commentary, they deliberately re-cast the actor who played Waymar Royce.

In the 2nd shooting they used the guy we see now & raved about how good he was even though it's only quite a small part they felt it was an important enough character to re-cast the original actor. although they didn't let on why,

Jamie Campbell Bowers was the original actor and he also auditioned for Viserys, & was brilliant in both parts they said but didn't end up with either role. So if we care to speculate about what might have been the reason.

It could be because Jamie is going to pop up later in a bigger role as a new character. (Rhaegar in flashback perhaps) or we may see Waymar again but as a wight, remember he did kill Will in the prologue.

the original actor is, quite a big name, he was in the series Camelot & recently in a teen fantasy movie that's part of a trilogy, I think he was a Vampire but I can't remember the name of it. (Not Twilight) Jonathan Rys Myers was in it too.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The guy has the training and education for it. Talent as well. He's officer track, sent out on an easy mission to gain some experience. On the other hand, the two grunts aren't. Jeor rates Gared a competent NCO (he is mistaken), but not officer material, and Will is clearly a bit slow and not suited to command.

Thanks! It's obvious that Royce would not have followed orders from a commoner. But one could have sent him a few times with a more experienced nobleman like Benjen, to get more experienced and get used following orders. Of course his foolishness is needed for the plot, the other two would have turned back without encountering the Others.

Maybe he'd be better off with a few trips with Benjen. But he was anything but foolish. In fact, he was the most competent and rational in the entire group. Didn't work out for him, but if Gared had stayed true to his vows, even that would have been a tremendous success.

[Michael Sixskins Bolton]

I also wondered as I re-read if it was typical for the NW to send three guys out after a group (I'm assuming at least 10) of free folk. What exactly would just the three of them do when they caught up?: "Stop," the teenaged Ser Waymar Royce pleaded, voice cracking, "come back with us to The Wall so that justice can be served."

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I also wondered as I re-read if it was typical for the NW to send three guys out after a group (I'm assuming at least 10) of free folk. What exactly would just the three of them do when they caught up?: "Stop," the teenaged Ser Waymar Royce pleaded, voice cracking, "come back with us to The Wall so that justice can be served."

Yes, that's the standard doctrine. The NW is supposed to be able to deal with several times their number with ease - and they are. Mounted men in chainmail and helmets carrying swords trained regularly do exceedingly well against stone age bandits.

[natty bumppo]

Royce is a noble, so of course he is an officer, no matter how inexperienced. That's how things are in segregated societies.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Royce is a noble, so of course he is an officer, no matter how inexperienced. That's how things are in segregated societies.

Well, you know, the guy from Westpoint is an officer as well, no matter how inexperienced. That's the point of both military academics and nobility in a feudal society: to produce young officers with the training and experience necessary to become good officers in time.

[Jo498]

Maybe he'd be better off with a few trips with Benjen. But he was anything but foolish. In fact, he was the most competent and rational in the entire group. Didn't work out for him, but if Gared had stayed true to his vows, even that would have been a tremendous success.

He might have been the most rational, but he certainly lacked the sense of danger the other two exhibited. Even if it just had been a trap set by the wildlings he would have been reckless to risk an ambush with only three people (and only himself a well-armed and armored warrior)

How could it have been a success? If Gared had came back he could have reported the others and Waymar-Wight. But I think he really lost his marbles from the terror, that's why he fled. If the NW at Castle Black had heeded his crazy ramblings is anyones guess.

[Gnivil]

Jamie Campbell Bowers was the original actor and he also auditioned for Viserys, & was brilliant in both parts they said but didn't end up with either role. So if we care to speculate about what might have been the reason.

It could be because Jamie is going to pop up later in a bigger role as a new character. (Rhaegar in flashback perhaps) or we may see Waymar again but as a wight, remember he did kill Will in the prologue.

Or Aegon?

[LordStoneheart]

whoa, Jamie Campbell Bower would be amazing for either Aegon or Rhaegar. Is his involvement confirmed?

[Jo498]

Yes, that's the standard doctrine. The NW is supposed to be able to deal with several times their number with ease - and they are. Mounted men in chainmail and helmets carrying swords trained regularly do exceedingly well against stone age bandits.

But not at twilight/night when ambushed with bows or slings. The horses are only useful in the open, not in forest/undergrowth and Royce is the only one fully armed and armored.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

He might have been the most rational, but he certainly lacked the sense of danger the other two exhibited. Even if it just had been a trap set by the wildlings he would have been reckless to risk an ambush with only three people (and only himself a well-armed and armored warrior)

How could it have been a success? If Gared had came back he could have reported the others and Waymar-Wight. But I think he really lost his marbles from the terror, that's why he fled. If the NW at Castle Black had heeded his crazy ramblings is anyones guess.

Well, he would be the one to risk a court martial if they turned back on a hunch. Furthermore, showing unease to your subordinates is something officers detest for good reason.

Please reread the arguments Gared and Will bring up. They are flat-out crazy. Either the two try to mess with the new kid, who is their commanding officer, or they are a bunch of close-to-mutineers who'll use every excuse to avoid their job. And as criminals sentenced to the NW, he has good reason to assume the latter.

A reliable message that the Others were back may have done some good. At least LC Mormont would know where to send Benjen to confirm it, and Benjen would be more careful.

That could have get the ball rolling almost two years earlier, when there was still peace.

Gared had to deliberately avoid the castles of the NW, make it across the Wall (no mean feat) and get as far south as Winterfell (about two months straight line). That's not a momentary lapse, and it wrecks havoc with him being trusted.

But not at twilight/night when ambushed with bows or slings. The horses are only useful in the open, not in forest/undergrowth and Royce is the only one fully armed and armored.

Who cares about bows or slings? All three wore chainmail and helmets, at worst they'd suffered some bruises. And Ser Waymar didn't ride into a trap willy-nilly, he had Will scout, he approached carefully and all the tactical stuff needed.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

I started re-reading GoT a few days ago. I stumbled already in the prologue. We know the NW is short of people and noone expected to meet Others. But in the prologue it seems that Ser Waymar Royce is clearly in command of a ranging party of three, although he has no scouting/ranging experience to speak of, being only 18 years of age and having said his vows but half a year earlier or so. Whereas the old guy has decades of experience and Will about five years + lots of poaching before that. What about one losing ones former privileges when joining the NW? In any case it seems very stupid to let an arrogant greenhorn command a party ranging as far as 7 day's ride from the wall.

Ser Waymar had military education, he had been trained to command soldiers. He most likely had been learning war since he was a little boy. Not only in theory, but also practice under whatever knight he had squired for. He had also that half a year at the Wall, during which his superiors had time to assess whether he was full or shit or not, and apparently he passed. No, not really a greenhorn.

[Hotpie Targaryen]

I always wondered why Royce joined the Night's Watch. He seemed out of place.

[Lady Woodland]

Or Aegon?

whoa, Jamie Campbell Bower would be amazing for either Aegon or Rhaegar. Is his involvement confirmed?

Wow never thought of Aegon, I guess I'm just so fixated on wanting to see a flashback or something of Rhaegar, they could have done one for the HotU scene with Dany, but chose to omit it & screw with the whole chapter, I guess the link to Jon's true parentage (assuming R+L+J is correct) would be too obvious for the unsullied & they are trying to keep a lid on the story. However unlikely I am holding on to a faint hope that after the last two books are written & the show has finished - Hollywood might come calling requesting a 3 part trilogy prequel to cover everything from the Targaryen Conquest & Westerosi pre-history up till RR. It certainly worked for the Star Trek franchise, & GRRM wouldn't even have to write the screen play's the story is already there.

They definitely could be saving him to play Aegon, he would look just right, a bit of extra blond (or blue.... lol) & he would be perfect, almost pretty & otherworldly but with a big pinch of attitude, & a touch of sulk & sass, I can see really see it now. Sadly It's not confirmed, I'm just going by what A & D stated in their commentary, they were obviously thinking long term even then. It never really made sense that an actor of his calibre would audition for 2 parts (one quite major) & then get passed over for the actor they chose without a significant explanation imho, they would have been lucky to have JCB & he was obviously keen on being involved.

I don't know the name of the actor who eventually played the part but they were really happy with his portrayal, again that brash arrogant attitude of the upper classes comes through brilliantly, so good choice. I really don't want to see him back as a wight with one blue eye though anything's possible in GRRM's world.

[John Suburbs]

This happens a lot in war literature: the grizzled non-coms with years of field experience and suddenly in comes the 22-yo second lewie fresh from the academy, ready to start giving orders.