Lyanna's death

[Ygrain]

Even Dany, who is most disposed to give Rhaegar the benefit of the doubt, said of him and Lyanna, "The dragon takes what he wants," which doesn't say anything about the girl in question freely giving herself..

Because in the hypothetical situation that Dany presents as analogical, her own abduction by Daario to be saved from the marriage to Hizdahr, she would be totally unwilling, right?

[mambru]

Because in the hypothetical situation that Dany presents as analogical, her own abduction by Daario to be saved from the marriage to Hizdahr, she would be totally unwilling, right?

Well, let's think about it. In the scene that you mention, Danaerys, just before her reluctant wedding to Hizdahr, briefly fantasizes about Daario acting toward her the way she believes Rhaegar acted toward Lyanna;

If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl,

Note that when thinking about what Rhaegar did, she does not envision a willing elopement with a girl running off with her man of her own free will. She imagines that Lyanna was carried off under threats of violence (at swordpoint). Because she idealizes Rhaegar, she romanticizes it in her mind, just as she romanticizes the fantasy of Daario swooping in to drag her away by force from a marriage she would prefer not to contract.

But if by some miracle Daario did manage with whatever henchmen he mustered to force his way through her guards and court and her fiance's (with all the bloodshed such an act would entail), disrupt the wedding she had planned to protect her subjects, her "children", and drag her off, thus causing the fall of political dominoes she'd been desperately trying to avert with that political marriage - if Daario managed all that, and then threw Dany down and mounted her in triumph - do you really think she would greet his actions with squeals of unalloyed joy?

I do not. Because it's a fantasy, a foolish one, and Dany recognizes it immediately as such. Even though Dany gets off on the idea of Daario being forceful to her (she fantasizes about how brutally he might kiss her and refuse to stop when she tells him to), it does not mean she would welcome it if he really forced her regardless of her consent. It especially does not mean that she would welcome him disregarding all her concerns as queen, as 'mother' to her people, and bring harm and destruction on them to get what he wanted.

While she can see how her daydream about Daario is a foolish fantasy, she does not extend her insight to see that her view of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna is similarly romanticized - because she's idealized Rhaegar in her mind and has no motivation or desire to see him clearly.

But if we look at the details of Rhaegar and Lyanna as Danaerys knows them, IMO we see that Danaerys' version is really in its essentials no different from Robert's: Lyanna did not go with Rhaegar. She was carried off. She was taken by force, at swordpoint.

So again, we have no clear alternative story about a consensual elopement of Rhaegar and Lyanna from anyone in all five books. Even from Danaerys - one of the people most likely to idealize Rhaegar - the story is still that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

[Rhaegar the Dragon Prince]

I'm guessing (GUESSING) that Ned tried to stick as close to the truth as possible and told people that Lyanna died from a fever and let people just assume it was a sickness and not childbirth. I think the important thing is that no one apart from Robert thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist, and no one seems to think of Dayne, Whent and Hightower as murderers and/or hostage-killers. And I don't think Ned would slander the men by saying they did something they didn't.

I think the operative point, and maybe all we ever really need to know, is that whatever Ned told people, it was satisfactory enough that the right people believed it and no one went digging into it.

I think Robert was the one spreading all the Rhaegar rape rumors because he was jealous. He was betrothed to Lyanna but she knew that and chose Rhaegar instead so Robert claimed he kidnapped her and started a war.

[Rhaegar the Dragon Prince]

The bleeding persists for weeks after giving birth. So changing the bedsheets would have to be done a lot. He just got there between chances is all.

Also I doubt that 3 Kingsguard knights were thrilled about having to look after a woman that just gave birth and a screaming babe.

[Ygrain]

Well, let's think about it. In the scene that you mention, Danaerys, just before her reluctant wedding to Hizdahr, briefly fantasizes about Daario acting toward her the way she believes Rhaegar acted toward Lyanna;

Note that when thinking about what Rhaegar did, she does not envision a willing elopement with a girl running off with her man of her own free will. She imagines that Lyanna was carried off under threats of violence (at swordpoint). Because she idealizes Rhaegar, she romanticizes it in her mind, just as she romanticizes the fantasy of Daario swooping in to drag her away by force from a marriage she would prefer not to contract.

But if by some miracle Daario did manage with whatever henchmen he mustered to force his way through her guards and court and her fiance's (with all the bloodshed such an act would entail), disrupt the wedding she had planned to protect her subjects, her "children", and drag her off, thus causing the fall of political dominoes she'd been desperately trying to avert with that political marriage - if Daario managed all that, and then threw Dany down and mounted her in triumph - do you really think she would greet his actions with squeals of unalloyed joy?

I do not. Because it's a fantasy, a foolish one, and Dany recognizes it immediately as such. Even though Dany gets off on the idea of Daario being forceful to her (she fantasizes about how brutally he might kiss her and refuse to stop when she tells him to), it does not mean she would welcome it if he really forced her regardless of her consent. It especially does not mean that she would welcome him disregarding all her concerns as queen, as 'mother' to her people, and bring harm and destruction on them to get what he wanted.

While she can see how her daydream about Daario is a foolish fantasy, she does not extend her insight to see that her view of Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna is similarly romanticized - because she's idealized Rhaegar in her mind and has no motivation or desire to see him clearly.

But if we look at the details of Rhaegar and Lyanna as Danaerys knows them, IMO we see that Danaerys' version is really in its essentials no different from Robert's: Lyanna did not go with Rhaegar. She was carried off. She was taken by force, at swordpoint.

So again, we have no clear alternative story about a consensual elopement of Rhaegar and Lyanna from anyone in all five books. Even from Danaerys - one of the people most likely to idealize Rhaegar - the story is still that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna.

When we drop the fanfiction of of throwing and mounting Dany and what not, the bottom line is the same as with the wildling tradition: you cannot steal a woman who doesn't wish to be stolen. And, since Dany hardly had any first-hand witnesses of the whole thing, we don't even know whether the swordpoint part is true or not.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I don't think Lyanna was manipulated. In Jojen's story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree Lyanna is crying over Rhaegar's sad song, I think that implies she at least admired him.

Admiration over songs and artist don't last for ever. Any symphaty over any song will surely end if married artist try to seduce someone he barely know.

[mambru]

When we drop the fanfiction of of throwing and mounting Dany and what not, the bottom line is the same as with the wildling tradition: you cannot steal a woman who doesn't wish to be stolen.

You think that's invariably true? That every woman dragged off from her family at swordpoint for sex with a lordling must've totally wanted it? Danaerys is NOT a wildling. And we're talking about her view of things. In most of Westeros, stealing a woman by force is not a marriage ceremony, and because Dany is NOT a wildling, she has no reason to think that because Lyanna was "carried off at swordpoint" it must mean that she gave consent....because a swordpoint is not a sign of free consent in most of Westeros - quite the opposite, in fact.

And, since Dany hardly had any first-hand witnesses of the whole thing, we don't even know whether the swordpoint part is true or not.

Doesn't matter. We're discussing what story most of Westeros THINKS is true regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the fact is, we have never heard a single account from any Westerosi of the Rhaegar/Lyanna being initially consensual. All accounts of it we have heard call it an abduction. Even that of Dany, who of all Westerosi is one much inclined to look at Rhaegar's side favorably, and was presumably told the official story - thinks of it as an abduction at swordpoint...so therefore, an abduction IS the public story in Westeros until someone can show otherwise.

[teej6]

You think that's invariably true? That every woman dragged off from her family at swordpoint for sex with a lordling must've totally wanted it? Danaerys is NOT a wildling. And we're talking about her view of things. In most of Westeros, stealing a woman by force is not a marriage ceremony, and because Dany is NOT a wildling, she has no reason to think that because Lyanna was "carried off at swordpoint" it must mean that she gave consent....because a swordpoint is not a sign of free consent in most of Westeros - quite the opposite, in fact.

Doesn't matter. We're discussing what story most of Westeros THINKS is true regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the fact is, we have never heard a single account from any Westerosi of the Rhaegar/Lyanna being initially consensual. All accounts of it we have heard call it an abduction. Even that of Dany, who of all Westerosi is one much inclined to look at Rhaegar's side favorably, and was presumably told the official story - thinks of it as an abduction at swordpoint...so therefore, an abduction IS the public story in Westeros until someone can show otherwise.

As Ygrain pointed out this is fantasizing on Dany's part and she had no first hand knowledge of what transpired between Rhaeghar and Lyanna. Now if we want to assume that Dany's 'swordpoint' interpretations of events is correct then we could assume that Rhaegar did threaten violence towards the guards who were with Lyanna although she went willing. This would have had helped in perpetuating the whole kidnapping story and prevented any significant taint on the Starks' reputation.

There's a similar storyline in the Indian epic the Mahabharata in which the princess is betrothed to another and then kidnapped by the hero. The princess is of course in love with the hero and goes willing but it's made to look like a kidnapping. The princess family upon hearing about the kidnapping is ready to go to war with the hero but is prevented by the timely intervention of the princess brother (Krishna) who happens to be the hero's friend and the brains behind the kidnapping plot. Krishna used the kidnapping so that his family's honor is not tainted and the fiance's family wouldn't declare war on them. Well, this is a long-winded way of saying that the whole kidnapping angle could have been a ruse to protect the Starks' reputation but then backfired.

[LadyLiz]

Admiration over songs and artist don't last for ever. Any symphaty over any song will surely end if married artist try to seduce someone he barely know.

Lol I am not implying that him singing a song is enough go a reason to fall in love and run off with him. We really haven't seen or heard much of this part of the past but we only have one emotional reaction from Lyanna in regards to Rhaegar and it seems a fairly positive one (at least based on Benjen's teasing) so with the limited information we have I am going to say I think she was happy. Plus the whole thing about her having wolf's blood and being a bit determined makes me think it would be difficult to get her to go along anywhere without her consent.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Admiration over songs and artist don't last for ever. Any symphaty over any song will surely end if married artist try to seduce someone he barely know.

Guess they met the very next day after the jousting when Rhaegar was sent to find the mystery knight and later reported back he did not find him? Just imagine him arriving in time to help her un-/dress...

[Ygrain]

You think that's invariably true? That every woman dragged off from her family at swordpoint for sex with a lordling must've totally wanted it? Danaerys is NOT a wildling. And we're talking about her view of things. In most of Westeros, stealing a woman by force is not a marriage ceremony, and because Dany is NOT a wildling, she has no reason to think that because Lyanna was "carried off at swordpoint" it must mean that she gave consent....because a swordpoint is not a sign of free consent in most of Westeros - quite the opposite, in fact.

Sigh. No. I'm pointing out a certain pattern.

Doesn't matter. We're discussing what story most of Westeros THINKS is true regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the fact is, we have never heard a single account from any Westerosi of the Rhaegar/Lyanna being initially consensual. All accounts of it we have heard call it an abduction. Even that of Dany, who of all Westerosi is one much inclined to look at Rhaegar's side favorably, and was presumably told the official story - thinks of it as an abduction at swordpoint...so therefore, an abduction IS the public story in Westeros until someone can show otherwise.

Sure it does, because what Dany was presumably told is no basis for assessment whether she got the official version, true version, romanticised version.... And in her romanticised version, she thinks of the abduction as a rescue.

Besides, we have suspiciously few accounts that actually think of it as an abduction - note e.g. Catelyn's "Brandon learned about Lyanna", not "about Lyanna's abduction". Peculiar.

As Ygrain pointed out this is fantasizing on Dany's part and she had no first hand knowledge of what transpired between Rhaeghar and Lyanna. Now if we want to assume that Dany's 'swordpoint' interpretations of events is correct then we could assume that Rhaegar did threaten violence towards the guards who were with Lyanna although she went willing. This would have had helped in perpetuating the whole kidnapping story and prevented any significant taint on the Starks' reputation.

There's a similar storyline in the Indian epic the Mahabharata in which the princess is betrothed to another and then kidnapped by the hero. The princess is of course in love with the hero and goes willing but it's made to look like a kidnapping. The princess family upon hearing about the kidnapping is ready to go to war with the hero but is prevented by the timely intervention of the princess brother (Krishna) who happens to be the hero's friend and the brains behind the kidnapping plot. Krishna used the kidnapping so that his family's honor is not tainted and the fiance's family wouldn't declare war on them. Well, this is a long-winded way of saying that the whole kidnapping angle could have been a ruse to protect the Starks' reputation but then backfired.

/mindblown/ This particular scenario of a staged kidnapping to preserve the family honour has been proposed and discussed in the R+L threads. I don't know my Mahabharata so well, could you provide names, please?

[teej6]

Sigh. No. I'm pointing out a certain pattern.

Sure it does, because what Dany was presumably told is no basis for assessment whether she got the official version, true version, romanticised version.... And in her romanticised version, she thinks of the abduction as a rescue.

Besides, we have suspiciously few accounts that actually think of it as an abduction - note e.g. Catelyn's "Brandon learned about Lyanna", not "about Lyanna's abduction". Peculiar.

/mindblown/ This particular scenario of a staged kidnapping to preserve the family honour has been proposed and discussed in the R+L threads. I don't know my Mahabharata so well, could you provide names, please?

😜 In the Mahabharata the hero, Prince Arjuna, falls in love with his cousin, Subhadara (a princess from the Yadavs) who at the time was engaged to Prince Duroyodhan. Subhadara is also in love with Arjuna and her brother Krishna (who happens to be best friends with Arjuna) comes up with a plan whereby Arjuna kidnaps Subhadara when she attends her morning prayers. This way the Yadavs have not broken any promises and Duroyodhan does not have just cause to wage war on the Yadavs. However, the Yadavs feel slighted by Arjuna and get ready to wage war on Arjuna but Krishna intervenes and claims Subhadara kidnapped Arjuna 😉. Besides, Arjuna being the greatest warrior and a kin to the Yadavs, nobody has the stomach to fight him. I don't have a good source recommendation on the Mahabharata but if you Google Arjuna/Subhadara, you should be able to find a link to this story.

[Ygrain]

In the Mahabharata the hero, Prince Arjuna, falls in love with his cousin, Subhadara (a princess from the Yadavs) who at the time was engaged to Prince Duroyodhan. Subhadara is also in love with Arjuna and her brother Krishna (who happens to be best friends with Arjuna) comes up with a plan whereby Arjuna kidnaps Subhadara when she attends her morning prayers. This way the Yadavs have not broken any promises and Duroyodhan does not have just cause to wage war on the Yadavs. However, the Yadavs feel slighted by Arjuna and get ready to wage war on Arjuna but Krishna intervenes and claims Subhadara kidnapped Arjuna . Besides, Arjuna being the greatest warrior and a kin to the Yadavs, nobody has the stomach to fight him. I don't have a good source recommendation on the Mahabharata but if you Google Arjuna/Subhadara, you should be able to find a link to this story.

Thanks a lot!

Lol, so she kidnapped him? Really, nothing new under the sun, this scenario has been proposed, as well :D - It seems that being a badass fighter doesn't prevent Ardjuna from getting into all sorts of embarrassing situations; IRRC, when he and his brothers had to go into hiding, he poised as an eunuch, right?

I'll repost this into the R+L thread, as well, there definitely potential!

[teej6]

Thanks a lot!

Lol, so she kidnapped him? Really, nothing new under the sun, this scenario has been proposed, as well :D - It seems that being a badass fighter doesn't prevent Ardjuna from getting into all sorts of embarrassing situations; IRRC, when he and his brothers had to go into hiding, he poised as an eunuch, right?

I'll repost this into the R+L thread, as well, there definitely potential!

Yes, he did disguise himself as a eunuch for a year. He's also a great dancer/singer 😊 and is described as having a very sensitive side to him. He's like a badass warrior and also a huge feminist. That's why the ladies love him 😉

[OnlyOne]

I'm guessing (GUESSING) that Ned tried to stick as close to the truth as possible and told people that Lyanna died from a fever and let people just assume it was a sickness and not childbirth. I think the important thing is that no one apart from Robert thinks of Rhaegar as a rapist, and no one seems to think of Dayne, Whent and Hightower as murderers and/or hostage-killers. And I don't think Ned would slander the men by saying they did something they didn't.

I think the operative point, and maybe all we ever really need to know, is that whatever Ned told people, it was satisfactory enough that the right people believed it and no one went digging into it.

Without "guessing", I can tell you that women sweat during childbirth. It's incredibly hard work. Sheesh.

[mambru]

Sure it does, because what Dany was presumably told is no basis for assessment whether she got the official version, true version, romanticised version....

It doesn't, because the post I was responding to...

I think it's strongly alluded to by multiple parties that it was consensual.

...was strictly about what people were saying about what transpired with Rhaegar/Lyanna - not about what actually happened. I just pointed out that in fact, no one has clearly said it was consensual in any of the five books. Both the avowed enemy of the Targaryens (Robert) and the last Targaryen herself agree on one point - Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint.

And in her romanticised version, she thinks of the abduction as a rescue.

Yes, in the privacy of her own skull, Dany romanticizes the idea of being taken at swordpoint from a marriage she's agreed to but doesn't like. She also gets giddy and horny at the idea of Daario kissing her and not stopping with her refusal. Whatever gets her off. The fact remains that this would not be something she would want in reality due to the real-life complications involved...any more than women in the Seventies who thrilled to bodice-rippers about being ravished by handsome aristocrats all really WANTED to be taken against their will by good-looking, eminent men. Fantasy's different from reality. Dany was very aware of that when she dismissed her fantasy of Daario as "folly." But she doesn't apply that awareness to Rhaegar's actions, because she idealizes him too much.

Sigh. No. I'm pointing out a certain pattern.

I beg your pardon. I misunderstood. But when you roundly declare:

"...the bottom line is the same as with the wildling tradition: you cannot steal a woman who doesn't wish to be stolen."

...it does sound like you're saying that a woman can't be kidnapped at swordpoint by a man for sex unless she secretly wants it.

Instead you're saying that the stealing of a woman by force is an accepted part of wildling marriage customs and cultural patterns. But since neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna nor Danaerys were wildlings, I don't see how it's at all relevant to the question of whether non-wildling Westerosi thought Rhaegar carrying Lyanna off at swordpoint would be consensual.

Besides, we have suspiciously few accounts that actually think of it as an abduction - note e.g. Catelyn's "Brandon learned about Lyanna", not "about Lyanna's abduction". Peculiar.

Not really. It's a scandal more than fifteen years old, whose protagonists are (mostly) long dead. It's understandable that most Westerosi of the present day aren't talking much about it, especially when they have far more recent and urgent things to worry about.

Besides "few" is still more than "none." And there are a few accounts of Lyanna being abducted by Rhaegar (romanticized or not) and no accounts from any Westerosi that Lyanna went with him willingly and consensually. None. Which was my point to begin with.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Both the avowed enemy of the Targaryens (Robert)

...who was not present when it happened...

and the last Targaryen herself

...who probably witnessed the scene from the heavens while not being born until two years later...

agree on one point - Rhaegar carried Lyanna off at swordpoint.

No credibility in the argument.

[mambru]

...who was not present when it happened...

...who probably witnessed the scene from the heavens while not being born until two years later...

No credibility in the argument.

Since, again, I was only discussing what Westeros thinks happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna, not what actually DID happen (to which I agree that neither Robert nor Dany were eyewitnesses), you have neatly disproved something I didn't actually say.