Lyanna's death

[JustOneGuy]

Reading your opinions it gets stranger. The point with Varys is very good. He is such a man that even if the honorable Ned Stark tells a thing, he would investigate.

Another thing - Ned goes to ToJ and comes back in KL with a baby, or did he? Also, if this is true and Ned presents the baby's mother as some woman from the Storm Lands, for instance - when did he make the baby? It's unlikely that his travel to ToJ and even Starfall continued 9 months.

[Margaret Ballinger]

Only Ned and Howland survived the Tower of Joy, so how would Varys know? There is no mention of Ned returning to King's Landing.

Ned did bring the "bones" of Lyanna back home. So he would have had to take her body to the silent sisters somewhere first so they could de-flesh her. He also traveled to two known places. He went to Skyfall which is in southern Dorne to return the sword, but he also went to House Dustin.

“Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go..."

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard’s bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.”

[MaesterSamwell]

After Ned went to the brothel to see the bastard baby he thought:

"Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows.

He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them. . .

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

I think the lines here are the key. Ned Stark kept his vows, not just to Lyanna (as in the promise he made her), but also the vows to Catelyn (which adds to R+L=J or at least someone other than Ned is Jon's dad)

The second line is especially intriguing because it says the price he'd paid to keep them. Are we really led to believe that this was just his honor being tainted because he had a bastard outside of marriage and has to lie to Robert who he was furious at because of what happened with Rhaegar's children, Elia, Aerys and how Robert made no attempt to punish or sanction Jaime and Tywin for these acts. I think there was a greater price he paid then simply his honor with Catelyn and Robert. To be discussed more after the second quote.

On a side note, one of the best explanations for show only watchers of the Rhaeger, Lyanna and KotLT stories are contained in tjhe special features of the Season 1 blu-ray. I have shown most of my friends these featurettes and it greatly helps them understand the backstory of Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Knight of the Laughing tree

Only Ned and Howland survived the Tower of Joy, so how would Varys know? There is no mention of Ned returning to King's Landing.

Ned did bring the "bones" of Lyanna back home. So he would have had to take her body to the silent sisters somewhere first so they could de-flesh her. He also traveled to two known places. He went to Skyfall which is in southern Dorne to return the sword, but he also went to House Dustin.

“Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go..."

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard’s bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.”

It is interesting that he had six men with him, but we only here about how Lord Dustin's bones were never returned. Could it possibly be that maybe there were more people to survive the ToJ then we are led to believe? Could it also be possible that Ned's price he paid was having to sacrifice some of his own men to protect Lyanna's secret? This is all speculation, but the ToJ story is much more complicated than a simple fight between 3 KG and Ned with his six men. What it is we may never know (I hope GRRM gives us the answer at some point), but it was definitely not a simple battle for honor between the parties involved.

[JustOneGuy]

Yeah, it is highly possible that Ned killed some his people to shut their mouths.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Maybe, I wouldnt go so far as to saying thats what was "officially" passed off as the cause of her death. A 16 year old girl who was known to be strong and healthy dies of a measly fever. I think there are stories which would be more believable than that.

There are sometimes viruses that go through and only kill the ones you would think are least likely to die, i.e. the strong and healthy. No one knows what Lyanna might have been subjected to during her "captivity" she could have been beaten, starved, raped repeatedly. Who's to say her immune system was strong enough to fight off an infection? And who said it was "measly" fever? There are some pretty bad ones. Remember to the medieval world "fever" is used to describe a lot of different things that hadn't yet been identified. We use names like Swine Flu, Meningitis, SARS, but to them if you felt hot it was a fever.

[Margaret Ballinger]

I think the lines here are the key. Ned Stark kept his vows, not just to Lyanna (as in the promise he made her), but also the vows to Catelyn (which adds to R+L=J or at least someone other than Ned is Jon's dad)

The second line is especially intriguing because it says the price he'd paid to keep them. Are we really led to believe that this was just his honor being tainted because he had a bastard outside of marriage and has to lie to Robert who he was furious at because of what happened with Rhaegar's children, Elia, Aerys and how Robert made no attempt to punish or sanction Jaime and Tywin for these acts. I think there was a greater price he paid then simply his honor with Catelyn and Robert. To be discussed more after the second quote.

On a side note, one of the best explanations for show only watchers of the Rhaeger, Lyanna and KotLT stories are contained in tjhe special features of the Season 1 blu-ray. I have shown most of my friends these featurettes and it greatly helps them understand the backstory of Robert's Rebellion, Rhaegar and Lyanna and the Knight of the Laughing tree

Thank you! We get questions all the time about it on the fanpage I help admin. I will try to find it on Youtube so I can just post it instead of trying to explain.

I try to just stick with the facts that have been presented so far. But I also keep an open mind to all theories. But the one thing I can't see past is why the Kingsguard were protecting a Stark girl instead of protecting the royal family. GRRM answered a few questions on it, saying that they did know what they were guarding, but refused to answer what it was. Also they followed orders, so if Rhaegar told them to do something they did, but they were not necessarily happy about it. He was then asked about the timeline between Jon and Daenery's birth. He said Daenerys was about 9 months later. He said he might possibly create a timeline, but it would be later on. Also he mentioned when Ned was dreaming about the Tower of Joy he was under the influence of milk of the poppy because of his injury, and he was running a fever, some things would be a bit jumbled. So GRRM was stressing not to take what Ned dreamed as gospel since it was a fever dream and not a true memory.

Oh and speaking of fevers. "If" Lyanna just had a child and was bleeding it could be a reason why she was also running a fever. It was mentioned more than once that there was a lot of blood involved, even in a dream by Theon where he saw her gown splattered in blood. "Bed of blood" room that "smelled of blood and roses." So I don't think she caught some disease. Childbirth was pretty dangerous and bloody back then, especially if she didn't have a midwife and was alone (If she did have a child). The skin must tear for the baby's head, which leaves a wound. Also she was only 16 and "if" she had a child it would be her first. I'm not saying I know what happened, only that there was blood involved.

[Ziriath]

My problem with the theory is, that Ned's arrival to Tower of Joy was so perfectly timed with Lyanna dying. And bed of blood? If she gave birth some time before and then caught the fever, wasn't there anyone to change the damn bedsheets? Before I came across the R+J theory, I thought some of the Kingsguard had injured her.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Someone told us that Ned and Robert were angry at each other over dead Rhaegar's known children and that they become close agan after Lyanna's death. I wonder what did Ned told Robert and how could keep secret from him involving Lyanna's death and become friends again with Robert. Didn't he feel guilty over this? He said he hold secrets for 14 years. Is this related?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

My problem with the theory is, that Ned's arrival to Tower of Joy was so perfectly timed with Lyanna dying. And bed of blood? If she gave birth some time before and then caught the fever, wasn't there anyone to change the damn bedsheets? Before I came across the R+J theory, I thought some of the Kingsguard had injured her.

The bleeding persists for weeks after giving birth. So changing the bedsheets would have to be done a lot. He just got there between chances is all.

[Faithmemory]

Rhaegar loved Lyanna I guess... maybe she got killed by a Martell or a Dayne.

[FaeryRingsAndForestFires]

I think also remembering that these characters are simply that - characters - accounts for a lot of the slightly unbelievable coincidences like Ned arriving at the precise time to see Lyanna die. If this was a real scenario, it wouldn't be that simple, but as it's a story I think allowances can be made.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Poisoned by Varys and his little birds. Summer chill or sepsis.

[Lady Woodland]

(snipped for space)

After Ned went to the brothel to see the bastard baby he thought:

"Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows.

He thought of the promises he’d made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them. . .

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow’s face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?"

This is key here:

There is another passage in GoT that you skip over easily on re-reads, it happens when Ned arrives at KL after his journey with the girls, he is taken to LF's brothel to meet with Catelyn:

They discuss needing LF to help them find the person who sent the assassin after Bran: After asking if Varys know's Catelyn remarks, "You did not wed a fool Ned Stark" but the man has ways of knowing, some dark arts" (sic, from memory) Ned thinks to himself he doesn't trust either LF or Varys but they do need help & LF was like a brother to Catelyn as children, It would not be the first time he had made common cause with a man he despised.

Nothing more is said in this chapter, but this hints at your above passage, Ned's secret's & the price he paid. We don't know what people were told if anything regarding the ToJ, I doubt that finding Lyanna dead & killing of the KG at the same place were mentioned in the same sentence that would have raised more questions than he would be able to answer & the threads on this site discussing why they were there are enough to assume the reasonable people of Westeros would also assume the KG were there protecting someone of Royal Blood.

So not just Lyanna, but how did Ned explain the "deaths" of the KG. Their deaths are never thought of by anyone, they are merely remembered for the honour & bravery. Ned must have paid for someone's help & silence.

For the record I don't believe that only Ned & HR survived either. "They found Ned holding her lifeless hand" who are they? GRRM has admitted that Ned's fever dreams are not litteral. I am aware of the passage "only two lived to ride away". However that thought does not preclude injured men being carried of toby carts/litters to be treated by Maesters & being re-born in an assumed identity, sworn to help keep a promise Ned made to Lyanna.

Until I see GRRM write the ToJ scene I don't believe all the KG were killed there. "A clash of steel & shadow" could indicate the coming together of swords in agreement of a solemn promise to protect the identity of a baby king. This is a fantasy novel after all, so there is more than one interpretation. It may even indicate the use of magic like the "shadow" that killed Renly, far more unlikely, I can't see Ned resorting to using magic tricks to kill the KG, but I don't see how it would have been possible for his random 6 friends to kill the illustrious KG, just throwing it out there for debate.

[Ygrain]

Reading your opinions it gets stranger. The point with Varys is very good. He is such a man that even if the honorable Ned Stark tells a thing, he would investigate.

Another thing - Ned goes to ToJ and comes back in KL with a baby, or did he? Also, if this is true and Ned presents the baby's mother as some woman from the Storm Lands, for instance - when did he make the baby? It's unlikely that his travel to ToJ and even Starfall continued 9 months.

I think that this was crucial for keeping the secret - not being seen travelling from the South with a newborn. And that could easily be accomplished by sending Jon to the North separately, on a ship from Starfall.

It is interesting that he had six men with him, but we only here about how Lord Dustin's bones were never returned. Could it possibly be that maybe there were more people to survive the ToJ then we are led to believe? Could it also be possible that Ned's price he paid was having to sacrifice some of his own men to protect Lyanna's secret? This is all speculation, but the ToJ story is much more complicated than a simple fight between 3 KG and Ned with his six men. What it is we may never know (I hope GRRM gives us the answer at some point), but it was definitely not a simple battle for honor between the parties involved.

When Ned sends Jory Cassel's bones to Winterfell, he remembers Jory's father Martyn being buried in Dorne. Also, he remembers the eight cairn he built there, which makes three KG + five Ned's friends.

My problem with the theory is, that Ned's arrival to Tower of Joy was so perfectly timed with Lyanna dying. And bed of blood? If she gave birth some time before and then caught the fever, wasn't there anyone to change the damn bedsheets? Before I came across the R+J theory, I thought some of the Kingsguard had injured her.

"Bed of blood" is a figurative phrase that means "birthing bed", not necessarily soaked in blood the whole time. Plus, as Lady Blizzardborn said, postpartum bleeding continues for quite a while.

Also, if you take a look at Ned's memory of Lyanna's last moments when she dies immediately after extracting the promise, it seems as if she was holding onto life to do just that, to make sure her child was safe. Perhaps, as if she even knew that Ned was to come. It is not unknown that dying people hold on to accomplish something of utmost importance, and when it's done, they let go.

Rhaegar loved Lyanna I guess... maybe she got killed by a Martell or a Dayne.

Which is why Ned thinks Dayne the finest knight that ever lived?

[LadyLiz]

True. But do we know that Vary's did not in fact investigate? Or anyone? As another mentioned, this might come out later. As a side, everyone knows of Ned's legendary honor, so perhaps people just believed anything Ned offered.

There were only two people alive who were at all present during the Rhaegar/Lyanna and one of them has since died. Ned Stark is very difficult to get information from and Reed I don't think anyone would deem him important enough to ask (plus he would never betray Ned). It would be very difficult to investigate. All the Kingsguard who were with Rhaegar died as did Lyanna, Rhaegar and the northmen brought into the ToJ. The only possible chink in the armor is Ashara Dayne or Wylla or whatever but even that would be pretty tricky to prove.

[mambru]

I think it's strongly alluded to by multiple parties that it was consensual.

I don't think it was, actually. At least, IIRC, I don't remember anyone (except Ned, in his own private thoughts) implying that it was consensual. Bran told the story to Osha (I think) quite matter-of-factly as abduction and rape. Even Dany, who is most disposed to give Rhaegar the benefit of the doubt, said of him and Lyanna, "The dragon takes what he wants," which doesn't say anything about the girl in question freely giving herself.

Every one else says Rhaegar was in love. Even Daenerys mentioned it more than once, When Drogo was dying she said she would die for him, as Rhaegar died for the woman he loved. Ser Barristan said "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it." Even Kevan Lannister mentioned if Rhaegar had been married to Cersei, he would have never looked twice at Lyanna. Personally, I think that it was Robert's pride that insisted it must have been rape. He just couldn't accept it.

Just because the Westerosi referring to Rhaegar's actions called it love doesn't mean we wouldn't call his actions rape also. The Westerosi would call it love because he ran away with her and kept her for so many months in the face of such difficulty and opposition that it didn't make sense he just took her as a passing fancy.

And in a patriarchal society where overlooking a woman's consent isn't considered that big a deal, there are a whole lot of stories where rape is a manifestation of 'love' and overwhelming desire (I can think of Tam Lin, a few ancient Roman and Greek comedies where a boy rapes a girl and then ends up marrying her happily ever after). As recently as thirty years ago, a lot of bodice rippers would have a plot where the hero would Byronically rape the heroine as part of the love story. Hell, it even happened on General Hospital.

[Pikachu101]

Lyanna most likely died from childbirth or poor sanitary conditions. My guess is that they didn't want to bring in a midwife until right at the very end but Jon was born premature so Lyanna had to give birth with no medical help, thus the poor sanitary conditions which induced her fever.

I don't think people actually cared how Lyanna died, if Ned said "she died of a fever" they'll let it go without question.

Even Dany, who is most disposed to give Rhaegar the benefit of the doubt, said of him and Lyanna, "The dragon takes what he wants," which doesn't say anything about the girl in question freely giving herself.

Interesting point and there may be some truth to it. There's a rape culture mentality embodied in both men and women, if Rhaegar wanted Lyanna then it was love even if she didn't reciprocate those feelings.

Seriously everyone whose talked about R/L only see it from Rhaegar's perspective never Lyanna's. They just assume she'd want to be with him because he's Rhaegar, it hasn't occurred to a single person that Rhaegar (a grown man) might have manipulated a 15 year old kid.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

For those who did not bother to re-read A Game of Thrones, here is the qoute mentioning the fever, the remember-the-promise-you-made, roses, and flowers to-be-brought:

AGoT Chapter 4, Eddard I:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was . . . fond of flowers."

(all highlighting of the text in the quote is by me.)

The fever is how Ned remembers the scene while he is healthy, awake and sharp, and he is not lying to himself, I can safely assume.

There's blood and the smell of blood, also in other instances of the scene, but she died from the fever, not bleeding to death, which rules out a murder case by any rogue kingsguard.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

it hasn't occurred to a single person that Rhaegar (a grown man) might have manipulated a 15 year old kid.

You tell a story looking through modern glasses. Medieval society knows of no 15 year old kids, not even 15 year old girls or boys, because at 15. they have been of age for quite a while.

[LadyLiz]

I don't think Lyanna was manipulated. In Jojen's story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree Lyanna is crying over Rhaegar's sad song, I think that implies she at least admired him.