Jon's Queen Consort Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 how about you answer the question and stop avoiding it or are incapable of discerning right from wrong if rape isn't involved You mean spamming? Why? Your example have nothing to do with Barry's situation so I don't see the reason for spamming. Maybe if you had a similar with Barry example?I don't want to spam this thread more than we have already done in unnecessary discussion about irrelevant fanfiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegars Heir Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 You mean spamming? Why? Your example have nothing to do with Barry's situation so I don't see the reason for spamming. Maybe if you had a similar with Barry example?I don't want to spam this thread more than we have already done in unnecessary discussion about irrelevant fanfiction.it's very straight forward so are incapable of coming to a decision or afraid your argument falls apart once you admit that the world Gary and not black and white as you've painted ot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 it's very straight forward so are incapable of coming to a decision or afraid your argument falls apart once you admit that the world Gary and not black and white as you've painted ot Yet again for 10th time? What you asked have nothing to do with Barri's situation which means that is spamming and an unnecessary discussion about an irrelevant matter. I don't know how simpler I can say it. But the time here is 2:16 in the morning and our discussion have made me sleepy thank you for that, have a good night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winterfell is Burning Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 If he died trying to do what he supposed to do then he would be considered a true knight of the best next thing. First of all: says who? He's already considered to be a true knight by every single character in the series. Second: Your simplistic view actually is very similar to the Japanese soldiers committing suicide after losing battles in WWII- accomplishing nothing but to die in name of some pathetic tradition.. How is a knight that dies failing to save one a success and a knight that doesn't to save one but later saves thousands a failure? Dunk helped someone who was in need even if this means that he should endanger himself. Barry was hiding doing nothing. The end. And Dunk would have died and Aerion would have been free to beat and rape the girl if he pleased if not for his uncle stepping in. Very noble, but would not have accomplished anything. And no offense, but how old are you? This black and white view strikes me as typical of a child rather than an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jalabarxho Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Brandon at least had threatened to kill the prince. How is this even remotely the same as the Starks? Because neither those children or Rickard Stark had committed any real offense, they were murdered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The other prince Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 JQC The problem is that you are making the assumption that the vows you think are most important are indeed the most important. However I think it is clear in the books that even if an order violates one of the vows you hold most dear the knight is expected to follow the order. That seems to be more crucial to knighthood then anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The other prince Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 JQC The problem is that you are making the assumption that the vows you think are most important are indeed the most important. However I think it is clear in the books that even if an order violates one of the vows you hold most dear the knight is expected to follow the order. That seems to be more crucial to knighthood then anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 How is a knight that dies failing to save one a success and a knight that doesn't to save one but later saves thousands a failure? Which thousands did Barry save again? Or are we reaching for hypothetical future heroics to redeem his unflattering decisions in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THElogic Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I can't believe I just read this. You need to do a little research, ser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I can't believe I just read this. You need to do a little research, ser. Who, me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THElogic Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Who, me? No sorry, forgot to quote the person who started the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 That Jaime Lannister was 100% right to kill Aerys and Ned Stark was a judgmental clown for judging him for it. Which is ironic because Selmy calls Jaime an oath-breaker... hilarious for a man who also broke an oath. Clown? Eddard knew nothing but what he saw. A man swore to protect another man, sitting over that man he just killed while sitting in his throne smirking. Jaime chooses to be a sensitive idiot about it and not tell him about his motivations, he only lets Eddard assume exactly what it looks like. Jaime killed Aerys II for power and a throne. Jaime doesn't correct him. If Eddard was judgmental its because Jaime allowed him to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 Which thousands did Barry save again? Or are we reaching for hypothetical future heroics to redeem his unflattering decisions in the past?He single handedly ended the War of the Nine Penny Kings, so I'd argue he saved a shit ton of lives there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I don't like Barristan, he just seems like a yes man to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 He single handedly ended the War of the Nine Penny Kings, so I'd argue he saved a shit ton of lives there. That's a fair point, though to call it "single-handedly" when it was during a battle involving thousands or tens of thousands of others may be overselling it a bit. Still, this was before he was a Kingsguard, so if anything it reinforces the point that after putting on the white cloak, he didn't live up to his vows as a knight. After all, the claim was that allowing Aerys to run amok enabled Barristan to subsequently save thousands, and that doesn't seem to match if said "saving of thousands" happened before he was even a member of Aerys' guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 That's a fair point, though to call it "single-handedly" when it was during a battle involving thousands or tens of thousands of others may be overselling it a bitI only say single handedly because he cut through a large group of the Golden Company to kill Maelys the Monstrous, thus ending the rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 I only say single handedly because he cut through a large group of the Golden Company to kill Maelys the Monstrous, thus ending the rebellion. Yup, not going to try and take away Barristan's accomplishment there, but my point about this being prior to the events we were discussing still stands :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taurerewa Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 In a world of imperfect knights, Ser Barriston is among the most honorable. In his prime, he'd be Lord Commander of my Kingsguard any day...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 First of all: says who? He's already considered to be a true knight by every single character in the series. And how many of them exactly know what Aerys had done and what Barry did? How is a knight that dies failing to save one a success and a knight that doesn't to save one but later saves thousands a failure? Who are the thousands he had saved? And Dunk would have died and Aerion would have been free to beat and rape the girl if he pleased if not for his uncle stepping in. Very noble, but would not have accomplished anything. And no offense, but how old are you? This black and white view strikes me as typical of a child rather than an adult. Because there is not something ambiguous. A knight has to protect and help the people that they need him, Barry himself tells it and he hadn’t done it. It’s that clear. It's better to die trying than chickening out and turning the blind eye. Old or young, a true knight is sworn to protect those who are weaker than himself, or die in the attempt. JQC The problem is that you are making the assumption that the vows you think are most important are indeed the most important. However I think it is clear in the books that even if an order violates one of the vows you hold most dear the knight is expected to follow the order. That seems to be more crucial to knighthood then anything. Again that is bs, Barry himseld has told that a true knight "is sworn to protect those who are weaker than himself, or die in the attempt." there is nothing unclear or ambiguous about it. A true knigh,again even according to himself, should protect those who need him or die trying. The fact that Barry had faild to do it means that he isn't a true knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceless Man Friday Posted June 17, 2014 Share Posted June 17, 2014 “There are no true knights, no more than there are gods. If you can’t protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can. Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world, don’t ever believe any different.” The Hound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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