Problems in the historical narrative

[joluoto2]

Dragon steel. Weapons made of this material is supposed to beat the Others. Jon and Sam think it's Valyrian Steel. Possibly related to dragon glass believed to be obsidian.

Problems: Valyria did not exist during the Long Night.

Possible Solution: Of course this doesn't mean Valyrian Steel couldn't have predated Valyria. The magic involved in making Valyrian steel could be ancient and practiced By other cultures before the rise of the Freehold.

New Problem: The First Men didn't know steel. They were a Bronze Age culture.

Possible solution: Perhaps there were not only Westerosi people involved. The legends of Azor A'hai comes from Asshai in Essos. Maybe these people knew how to use steel.

New Problem: If the First Men were in contact with a more technologically advanced culture, why didn't they adopt their technologies? Do we even know when people in Essos started to use steel or iron?

The Iron Islands: Unique culture with their own peculiar religion. Theories that their Drowned God is a remnant of the original First Men religion seem to be usual on these boards.

Problem: For this the Iron Islands need to be ancient. But the name tell us it isn't. The First Men did not use iron or steel before the Andals came. So it's quite implausible the Iron Islands, and their ruling House the Greyirons existeds before the Andal invasions. It's much more plausible that the Iron Islands were colonized for mining of iron, so the First Men could catch up to the Andals in technology. We know the Greyirons ruled at least 1000 uears before the Andals came to the Iron Islands, and House Hoare rose to power. the Andal invasions were slow so it could well have taken a millennia for them to get that far.

Further Problems: If we accept the Ironborn are not a culture that old, then why do they have a unique religion and culture that differs so much from the First Men and Andal cultures?

Asshai: The prophecies about Azor A'hai seems to be coonected with the myths about the First Hero. But how in Seven Hells are legends about the Long Night told as far away as Asshai. Did the Long Night reach Essos too? Were there contacts between First Men and Essosi during this era?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Dragon bronze could serve as well. Remember, the Old Tongue is extinguished and had only an oral tradition as well.

For the Iron Islands again, that name is definitely not the initial name. Nor House Greyiron. Instead, it's something made up after the Andal invasion, with all the translation errors creeping in.

There is not a single hint that Azor Ahai and the Last Hero are in any way connected. Nor the Prince that was promised for that matter. Only Melisandre jumped on the chance to do so and we all know how good she is at interpreting stuff.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Ironborn's religion is almost same with the Sistermen's and Stormlands' gods.

[natty bumppo]

I'm a bit rusty, but IIRC the Greyjoys only became lords of the Iron Islands after the Conquest. before that, the seat of power was in the Riverlands, which they had conquerd. Harren the Black, who built Harrenhal, was of II heritage.

One has to accept that Westerosi tradition is not accurate. Samwell and Jon actually discuss that in ADWD, when Samwell mentions that there are no written documents from before the Andal invasion.

[danm_999]

Sam basically raises the possibility with Jon that Westeros' entire recorded history is bullshit in how long its timescale runs;

There’s more I haven’t found, I know. Some of the older books are falling to pieces. The pages crumble when I try and turn them. And the really old books . . . either they have crumbled all away or they are buried somewhere that I haven’t looked yet or . . .well, it could be that there are no such books, and never were. The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it. Those old histories are full of kings who reigned for hundreds of years, and knights riding around a thousand years before there were knights. You know the tales, Brandon the Builder, Symeon Star-Eyes, Night’s King . . . we say that you’re the nine hundred and ninety-eighth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, but the oldest list I’ve found shows six hundred seventy-four commanders, which suggests that it was written during . . .”
“Long ago,” Jon broke in.

[The Poster Who Was Promisd]

Dragon steel became Valyrian steel with the rise of the Freehold, as they were capable of producing in in larger quantities and without quenching it in the hearts of their wives.

The presence of steel weapons does not automatically bring with it the technology of its production - some of the wildings have steel weapons, yet they cannot manufacture them.

The Iron Islands presumably had another name before they were the Iron Islands. Why wouldn't they have been colonized? Skagos, Skane and Bear Island were, and they all seem even less hospitable.

[CJ McLannister]

I like the unreliability of the historic narrative. It makes it seem more realistic.

[Free Northman Reborn]

1. Dragonsteel was not Valyrian steel.

2. The Iron Isles were named something different in the Old Tongue.

3. The Long Night was a world wide cataclysm, with a very small pool of survivors that eventually repopulated the world. Hence, the Hero that saved the world became a common legend in more than one culture.

[Ser Greg of House House]

1. We don't know enough about all that. You forgot the Dawn. Supposedly it has First Men origins and it's similar to VS.

2. Names can be changed.

3. "The prophecies about Azor A'hai seems to be coonected with the myths about the First Hero."

Speculation. We don't know that. Actually, we know very little of what's happened.

You also need to remember we can't take tales as truth. There's no reliable history in Westeros.

[joluoto2]

Since you brought up language...

The split between Common and the Old Tongue is another problem. we're to believe that the split happened because the Andals brought their language. Why then are the North and even some Wildlings speaking Common? Shouldn't the surviving First Men cultures speak the Old Tongue. And with that question comes the possibility that the split predates the Andals.

[Elkrider]

Since you brought up language...

The split between Common and the Old Tongue is another problem. we're to believe that the split happened because the Andals brought their language. Why then are the North and even some Wildlings speaking Common? Shouldn't the surviving First Men cultures speak the Old Tongue. And with that question comes the possibility that the split predates the Andals.

What exactly is the Common Tongue anyways? Is it Andalish? A combination between Andalish and the Old Tongue? I go for the second answer. It makes more sense, because it's unlikely that the Andals managed to eliminate all of the Old Tongue immediately, when they were outnumbered by the First Men. It also explains why the North speaks the Common Tongue--Andal words slowly diffused through the Old Tongue to create some sort of creole. Except for Skagos and the wildlings, who still speak the Old Tongue.

What's unrealistic is the entire continent speaking the same language. You can see in the Free Cities within 400 years High Valyrian has moved into nine separate, mutually unintelligible dialects, similar to the Romance languages after the fall of the Roman Empire. Because languages change over time. It's not just the North. Practically every Kingdom should have a different language/dialect, especially among the peasantry, who don't have the benefit of standardized education from the Citadel and opportunities to travel.

[RumHam]

Since you brought up language...

The split between Common and the Old Tongue is another problem. we're to believe that the split happened because the Andals brought their language. Why then are the North and even some Wildlings speaking Common? Shouldn't the surviving First Men cultures speak the Old Tongue. And with that question comes the possibility that the split predates the Andals.

It's just a conceit to make it easier on everybody I bet.

[The Kinkslayer]

Azor ahai is an Essoian legend, but nothing seems to indicate that is from Asshai.

What special about Valyrian steel? It is not known. It may be forged with the blood of slaves or from dragon bones for all we know.

History is Westeros is more like a collection of tales, they don't even know when the andals came.

[I swear by Ice and Fire]

Sam and jon think that Dragonsteel is Valyrian steel. However it could mean obsidian or even anoother type of steel we dont know of yet.

As for the Iron island we dont know what it was called before the andals came or even when it was first populated so there isnt really a problem.

AS for Azor A'hai the only onw saying they are connected is Melisanre and she may be wrong. And in case shes right then the night could have been a global event, which means stories of it and in particular any saviour could be widespread.

[AzureOwl]

Sam and jon think that Dragonsteel is Valyrian steel. However it could mean obsidian or even anoother type of steel we dont know of yet.

That or the Valyrians weren't the first to manufacture what later became known as Valyrian steel.