addicted to snow Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 We're talking about Elio Garcia/Ran: the guy who runs this site and who knows more about what's already in the books and going to happen in the books outside of GRRM himself, and who has worked with GRRM on the App and the World Book, so no, he is not just "a reader". He is when it comes to how the series will come to an end, and to whether the Others are associated with House Stark or House Craster... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urrax2 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 While looking for something else I came across this piece by Ran/Elio elsewhere on this site discussing episode 4: Is the final scene a spoiler? It absolutely confirms something that's been widely speculated: Craster's sons really are turned into the next generation of Others, it seems. But confirmation of a widely held theory is still confirmation, so yes, it seems to be at least a mild spoiler. "Absolutely confirms"? No way. We saw a finger and the baby gets blue eyes and maybe freezes. That may be turning into a popsicle and it may not. Maybe we are supposed to leap to an erroneous conclusion. Red herring, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Ah well, denial's a funny thing... :cool4: This is about something which has already happened in the book [ie; Craster's sons] not "how the series will come to an end" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Ah well, denial's a funny thing... :cool4: This is about something which has already happened in the book [ie; Craster's sons] not "how the series will come to an end" You're smarter than that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 While looking for something else I came across this piece by Ran/Elio elsewhere on this site discussing episode 4: Is the final scene a spoiler? It absolutely confirms something that's been widely speculated: Craster's sons really are turned into the next generation of Others, it seems. But confirmation of a widely held theory is still confirmation, so yes, it seems to be at least a mild spoiler. Yes - together with the kipper wordplay, the fact that GRRM allowed the series producers freedom to spell out the "Craster's Sons" connection on-screen (and with artistic license) does look like further confirmation that the Others are not the big, bad problem we've assumed them to be. In other words - it may be a "mild spoiler," but Martin wasn't bothered enough to worry about it. And given the fact that he won't even tell his own editor where he's going with this story, I think we can rule the Others/WWs out of contention for the "big mystery" prize. After the back and forth Red Herring posts this week... I really feel more confident about that. Discussing with JNR, TBC, and AtS has helped me to think it through and find some clarity. (Thanks, guys.)And the next step might be rather interesting. If we accept the Others as Red Herring, we should begin to see other parts of this story that we (and the characters) may have misinterpreted ... I'm thinking of specific lines and passages in the text, here - and wondering if anything would strike you folk as particularly questionable, or worth another look. One that occurs to me immediately is the Old Bear's semi-rant to Sam Tarly, earlier in that same "Craster's sons" chapter (ASOS, 33), when he says: "The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose... We lost sight of the true enemy.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 ...it also suggests, when you lay things out this way, that Bran could be simply a Bran the Builder of the current age, learning via weirnet what the original Bran knew and using that knowledge to rebuild Winterfell, the Wall, etc. Or choosing not to do so. Yes, I think it's something like this. Not quite the Robert Jordan thing -- X is reborn when the wheel turns -- but a simpler case of rough analogs or parallels between characters in myths and the current characters. GRRM uses his myths, in other words, to foreshadow his future plot. The Bran/BtB parallel is just one such; there are quite a few. Tyrion/Lann the Clever is another conspicuous one. One that was pointed out to me recently by a friend is Jaime/Aemon the Dragonknight, which includes similiarities like these: 1. Kingsguard member 2. Joined at unusually early age (Jaime broke Aemon's record) 3. Deadly swordsman and famous for it 4. Served four kings 5. Rumored to have been true father of a king's son, because 6. He was in love with his sister We normally don't connect Jaime and Aemon psychologically because Jaime has led such a checkered past, and Aemon is such a paragon of nobility in the stories... but you can see that Jaime is morphing into someone far more noble along these lines. We might also extrapolate that Jaime will die defending Tommen from the Kettleblacks because this would parallel the way Aemon died, defending his king against brothers whose third brother was in the Kingsguard. Similarly, if Bran learns the language of the CotF in the next book (which is something BtB was said to do in the World book text) I will not be even slightly surprised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WierWood Wolf Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Re WW and the moving of wights. Could the magic used by the children to ward the Cave of Skulls be the same used by WW to " Shepard" wights to various locations. If so it might explain why WW aren't spotted in the vicinity of wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Ah well, denial's a funny thing... :cool4: This is about something which has already happened in the book [ie; Craster's sons] not "how the series will come to an end" Ran is an impressive authority on the already-published trivia of Westeros. Re future developments, he is on record, and can be heard on public video, admitting that he can only guess. And frankly, having read quite a few of his other guesses -- like "the blue flower in the ice wall may signify Jon and Dany will fall in love," and "Baby Jon was not at the ToJ when Ned showed up" -- I am not terribly impressed with his guessing skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Re WW and the moving of wights. Could the magic used by the children to ward the Cave of Skulls be the same used by WW to " Shepard" wights to various locations. If so it might explain why WW aren't spotted in the vicinity of wights. I'm not sure about remote shepherding. In the story of the Last Hero Old Nan says that the Others hated" every creature with hot blood in its veins" and later says "the Others smelled the hot blood in him". Now we know she gets things wrong, like the Others being dead, and "smelling", especially if we're dealing with wights seems a bit unlikely, but what we have contemplated in the past that they may react to and home in on heat signatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Ran is an impressive authority on the already-published trivia of Westeros. Ah come on, as I said we're not talking about guessing the future, but about what's already in the books and yes, if he's not aware of the passage in my signature block and its implications, I'd be very very astonished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Yes, I think it's something like this. Not quite the Robert Jordan thing -- X is reborn when the wheel turns -- but a simpler case of rough analogs or parallels between characters in myths and the current characters. GRRM uses his myths, in other words, to foreshadow his future plot. The Bran/BtB parallel is just one such; there are quite a few. Tyrion/Lann the Clever is another conspicuous one. One that was pointed out to me recently by a friend is Jaime/Aemon the Dragonknight, which includes similiarities like these: 1. Kingsguard member2. Joined at unusually early age (Jaime broke Aemon's record)3. Deadly swordsman and famous for it4. Served four kings5. Rumored to have been true father of a king's son We normally don't connect Jaime and Aemon psychologically because Jaime has led such a checkered past, and Aemon is such a paragon of nobility in the stories... but you can see that Jaime is morphing into someone far more noble along these lines. We might also extrapolate that Jaime will die defending Tommen from the Kettleblacks because this would parallel the way Aemon died, defending his king against brothers whose third brother was in the Kingsguard. Similarly, if Bran learns the language of the CotF in the next book (which is something BtB was said to do in the World book text) I will not be even slightly surprised.Great post. Had not read anything on those Jaime/ Aemon-DK parallels... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 And the next step might be rather interesting. If we accept the Others as Red Herring, we should begin to see other parts of this story that we (and the characters) may have misinterpreted ... I'm thinking of specific lines and passages in the text, here - and wondering if anything would strike you folk as particularly questionable, or worth another look. I'd say the big one has to be the R+L=J business, although there are some who have their doubts, I see no reason not to doubt that all the clues point to it being true. However I'd also argue that its a red herring in that it doesn't mean what most people thinks it means, ie; that Jon will be revealed as Jon Targaryen rightful warmer of the Iron Throne. Its going to turn out to be as irrelevant to the eventual outcome as Craster's boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WierWood Wolf Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 So these are the quotes i was looking for and side by side you can notice something. You’re a greenseer.”“No,” said Jojen, “only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. Bran, ASoS So fro Jojen we gather:1.Greenseers were Wargs2. The greatest Greenseers were Wargs ( implying that there are gs who aren't so great) who could wear the skin of any animal and could look through the eyes of the Weirwood trees “Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.” Doesn't this seem like two diffeent piece of info? From the above quotes i get that Skinchangers, regular skinchangers can also be GS( not great ones but still gs) probably based on blood again,However the greatest GS were the ones who were Wargs who could also wear any skins. So BR may not be a Warg at all .He may just be a Skinchanger/greenseer and not a Warg/greenseer. This expands a whole lot then....These quotes really convey the feeling of how powerful Bran is and how much BR/ CotF need him. The last line in the quote from Jojen caught my eye and I didn't remember it. You could look through the eyes of wierwoods and see the truth that lies beneath the world. What truth do you suppose Jojen is talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 These quotes really convey the feeling of how powerful Bran is and how much BR/ CotF need him.The last line in the quote from Jojen caught my eye and I didn't remember it. You could look through the eyes of wierwoods and see the truth that lies beneath the world. What truth do you suppose Jojen is talking about? I don't think its literal, but rather a metaphor like seeing behind the mask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snowfyre Chorus Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'd say the big one has to be the R+L=J business, although there are some who have their doubts, I see no reason not to doubt that all the clues point to it being true. However I'd also argue that its a red herring in that it doesn't mean what most people thinks it means, ie; that Jon will be revealed as Jon Targaryen rightful warmer of the Iron Throne. Its going to turn out to be as irrelevant to the eventual outcome as Craster's boys.Well, I meant in connection with Others and the Night's Watch - to see if we might start to get a feel for what Martin wants to distract us from. I really am suggesting that we view the Craster kipper wordplay as intentional by Martin - a subtle but carefully acknowledged "red herring" in the way Dan Brown used the character name Aringarosa in The DaVinci Code (a book I particularly disliked). In that sense, while there will be other red herrings in Martin's books (Tansy, for example), they wouldn't operate on nearly the same scale. While I'm inclined to agree with you on R+L=J, I'd view that as a separate mystery with its own set of red herrings. (eg, The Ned-Ashara Dayne "relationship," Wylla, the sisterman's daughter, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Well, I meant in connection with Others and the Night's Watch - to see if we might start to get a feel for what Martin wants to distract us from.... I suppose one obvious one which springs to mind in that context is this oft-repeated business of the Watch forgetting its original purpose. Understandably enough that's immediately interpreted as their being obsessed with dealing with the Wildlings rather than fighting the Others. However if the white walkers are a red herring was defending the realms of men by fighting the walkers their real original purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WierWood Wolf Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'm not sure about remote shepherding. In the story of the Last Hero Old Nan says that the Others hated" every creature with hot blood in its veins" and later says "the Others smelled the hot blood in him". Now we know she gets things wrong, like the Others being dead, and "smelling", especially if we're dealing with wights seems a bit unlikely, but what we have contemplated in the past that they may react to and home in on heat signatures. Why then wouldn't the wights home in on the much bigger smell of 100k Wildlings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Great post. Had not read anything on those Jaime/ Aemon-DK parallels... Thanks. You haven't read it because the person who suggested that one to me is not on the forums. She's my primary go-to co-analyst, and she is a smart cookie. She's fleshed out my theories in several ways, that being the most important recent contribution. Her husband, I'm afraid, does not agree with some of my theories, and this has (or so I am told) led to shouting over dinner parties... which cracks me right up. It's just fiction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King of Winters Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 These quotes really convey the feeling of how powerful Bran is and how much BR/ CotF need him. The last line in the quote from Jojen caught my eye and I didn't remember it. You could look through the eyes of wierwoods and see the truth that lies beneath the world. What truth do you suppose Jojen is talking about?He could be talking about Jon and his true parents, or maybe the truth about the WW, that their not what the world thinks they are and the real history of Westeros is revealed to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Ah come on, as I said we're not talking about guessing the future, but about what's already in the books and yes, if he's not aware of the passage in my signature block and its implications, I'd be very very astonished. What's already in the books is the claim of Craster's wives. It's one of many such claims, like the claim of Tormund to have had sexual relations with a bear, and the claim of Tyrion to have killed Joffrey. However, if you think it's already in the books, you should have no trouble making a wager with me, right? It should seem like can't-lose money. Therefore, I propose a simple $10 bet at 10 : 1 odds. If the Others are shown to have a fundamentally different origin than a magical transformation of Craster's sons into ice demons, then I win the bet and $100. Otherwise, I lose the bet, and $10. Furthermore, it's an open offer, to anyone reading this. Just contact me via PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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