Heresy 122

[TheTowerOfJoy]

LOL, yes, but again, back to my earlier comment... in that case, the number of sacrificial worshipers has been negligible for generations...

I would speculate that it wasn't an issue until after Robert's rebellion, and after Rickard died (perhaps he took the requirement to his grave)...

[Voice]

Here ya go (Bran, ADWD Chapter 34):

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

Interesting he says nothing of First Men blood being required for one to be a skinchanger or a greenseer.

Perhaps we should have read the precedent laid forth in tPatQ a little differently. Rather than dragon-binding not being limited to Targaryens, perhaps we should instead infer that such binding and bonding abilities are not entirely dependent on family bloodlines. Rather, that it is an individual's blood that carries the potential for these magical bonds.

[wolfmaid7]

So these are the quotes i was looking for and side by side you can notice something.

You’re a greenseer.”

“No,” said Jojen, “only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. Bran, ASoS

So fro Jojen we gather:

1.Greenseers were Wargs

2. The greatest Greenseers were Wargs ( implying that there are gs who aren't so great) who could wear the skin of any animal and could look through the eyes of the Weirwood trees

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Doesn't this seem like two diffeent piece of info?

From the above quotes i get that Skinchangers, regular skinchangers can also be GS( not great ones but still gs) probably based on blood again,However the greatest GS were the ones who were Wargs who could also wear any skins.

So BR may not be a Warg at all .He may just be a Skinchanger/greenseer and not a Warg/greenseer.

This expands a whole lot then....

[Voice]

I would speculate that it wasn't an issue until after Robert's rebellion, and after Rickard died (perhaps he took the requirement to his grave)...

That just leaves a lot to be desired, doesn't it? For example, why were there so few tributes being offered for so long that it became common knowledge that the NW was made up of the scum of Westeros?...during Rickard's life no less.

This notion is presented as being entrenched in Westerosi culture long before the prologue of AGOT, not as a byproduct of Robert's Rebellion, or the loss of Rickard Stark...

And, if it is the case that Rickard took the requirement to his grave with him, then not enough time has passed since to warrant the advance of the Others - as Rickard would have seen to it that tributes were offered to the NW until his death and many, if not most, of them would still be manning the Wall...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

That just leaves a lot to be desired, doesn't it? For example, why were there so few tributes being offered for so long that it became common knowledge that the NW was made up of the scum of Westeros?...during Rickard's life no less.

This notion is presented as being entrenched in Westerosi culture long before the prologue of AGOT, not as a byproduct of Robert's Rebellion, or the loss of Rickard Stark...

And, if it is the case that Rickard took the requirement to his grave with him, then not enough time has passed since to warrant the advance of the Others - as Rickard would have seen to it that tributes were offered to the NW until his death and that many, if not most, of them would still be manning the Wall...

The scum could still worship the Old Gods, so no, being a scum doesn't necessarily disqualify you as a perfectly good "sacrifice".

[Voice]

The scum could still worship the Old Gods, so no, being a scum doesn't necessarily disqualify you as a perfectly good "sacrifice".

Sure, but with plenty of them still being alive and manning the Wall (it hasn't been that long since Rickard's death), why would whatever lurks in the north feel justified in advancing so soon, when the tributes still man the Wall (including Rickard's own son)?

[Hrafntýr]

So these are the quotes i was looking for and side by side you can notice something.

You’re a greenseer.”

“No,” said Jojen, “only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. Bran, ASoS

So fro Jojen we gather:

1.Greenseers were Wargs

2. The greatest Greenseers were Wargs ( implying that there are gs who aren't so great) who could wear the skin of any animal and could look through the eyes of the Weirwood trees

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Doesn't this seem like two diffeent piece of info?

From the above quotes i get that Skinchangers, regular skinchangers can also be GS( not great ones but still gs) probably based on blood again,However the greatest GS were the ones who were Wargs who could also wear any skins.

So BR may not be a Warg at all .He may just be a Skinchanger/greenseer and not a Warg/greenseer.

This expands a whole lot then....

I read it as follows: Jojen has greendreams, but that doesn't make him a greenseer. A greenseer has greendreams, true, but can also skinchange. Some skinchangers are Wargs, skinchanging into wolves/direwolves, and some skinchange into any beast that flies or swims or crawls. But the real greenseers can do all that and also skinchange into the weirwoods. V6 could skinchange into beasts that fly or swim or crawl, but he never to our knowledge skinchanged into a weirwood. Its the skinchanging into a weirwood bit that makes a greenseer, in my opinion.

[wolfmaid7]

I read it as follows: Jojen has greendreams, but that doesn't make him a greenseer. A greenseer has greendreams, true, but can also skinchange. Some skinchangers are Wargs, skinchanging into wolves/direwolves, and some skinchange into any beast that flies or swims or crawls. But the real greenseers can do all that and also skinchange into the weirwoods. V6 could skinchange into beasts that fly or swim or crawl, but he never to our knowledge skinchanged into a weirwood. Its the skinchanging into a weirwood bit that makes a greenseer, in my opinion.

I wasn't thinking about Jojen snd "his" greendreams.As he says its more than that.Its the BR quote and specifically the red bolded of Jojen.

[Voice]

So these are the quotes i was looking for and side by side you can notice something.

You’re a greenseer.”

“No,” said Jojen, “only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world. Bran, ASoS

So fro Jojen we gather:

1.Greenseers were Wargs

2. The greatest Greenseers were Wargs ( implying that there are gs who aren't so great) who could wear the skin of any animal and could look through the eyes of the Weirwood trees

This dilemma could be explained by Jojen using the term wargs synonymously with skinchangers in this quote. He is trying to evoke understanding from Bran, drawing parallels between Bran and his abilities and greenseers and their abilities. It sounds very much like Jojen is talking to a child.

[Black Crow]

I wonder whether Brandon Stark, second legitimate son to Eddard Stark, died in AGoT when pushed from a tower, and Brandon Stark, aka Bran the Builder, whose soul was residing in the 3EC for a long time, took over his shattered body?

I'm not ready to go with this one, but I do like it

[SunflashJT]

This dilemma could be explained by Jojen using the term wargs synonymously with skinchangers in this quote. He is trying to evoke understanding from Bran, drawing parallels between Bran and his abilities and greenseers and their abilities. It sounds very much like Jojen is talking to a child.

Well Bran is still very much a child in CoK until Winterfell is taken.

[SunflashJT]

I'm not ready to go with this one, but I do like it

:agree: This one seems a little out there for me, but it does peak my interest.

[Black Crow]

This dilemma could be explained by Jojen using the term wargs synonymously with skinchangers in this quote. He is trying to evoke understanding from Bran, drawing parallels between Bran and his abilities and greenseers and their abilities. It sounds very much like Jojen is talking to a child.

That's a possibility, but its also possible that there's a lot of looseness in the language and that the distinctions are by no means as rigid as they appear

[Voice]

That's a possibility, but its also possible that there's a lot of looseness in the language and that the distinctions are by no means as rigid as they appear

Totally agree

[wolfmaid7]

This dilemma could be explained by Jojen using the term wargs synonymously with skinchangers in this quote. He is trying to evoke understanding from Bran, drawing parallels between Bran and his abilities and greenseers and their abilities. It sounds very much like Jojen is talking to a child.

While it is possible i didn't get that sense of trying to curtail to a child,who doesn't seem to need to have things cut into bite sizes pieces for him to grasp.Plus what i'm getting at goes towards BR's statement

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

He doesn't say "only one Warg in a thousand can be a GS", he said skinchanger which implies that not all GS were Wargs,but what it distinquishes is that the most powerful of the GS were the ones that were/are Wargs.That's what i'm pointing out.So BR may not have been a Warg just a Skinchanger who was choosen.

I'm not ready to go with this one, but I do like it

Me to,that gave me the chills

[redriver]

Different subject.

I note that the IMDB cast for Show 4.04 now credits Richard Brake as "White Walkers' Master," whereas earlier (and well after the change in the synopsis) he was credited as "Night's King."

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2972428/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

That's all good.The Night's King is in the Winterfell crypts where he belongs and the Others are on a rescue mission.Theory still alive. :drunk:

[redriver]

:agree: This one seems a little out there for me, but it does peak my interest.

*Pique*Sorry to be the pedant.

[TheButcherCrow]

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

That would seem to support what I was saying earlier. You are born a skinchanger and some few of those can become GS

[JNR]

Yeah, but in the first place we're dealing with magic, and in the second the show does necessarily have to take shortcuts both literal and metaphorical

Alll the way to the Heart of Winter seems rather a longcut, to me.

It also strains the credibility of Craster's wives. If the transformation were happening at Craster's keep, the wives might plausibly have seen it. Well, that would certainly explain their claim.

But it doesn't seem at all likely the wives are sneaking all the way to the Heart of Winter, hiding behind a frozen shrubbery (the work of Roger), watching the transformation in secret, and then coming back to tell the tale.

That sounds delicious. It may also reveal that the walkers' true weakness is not heat, but diabetes, as they've all nursed on Slush Puppies from birth.

Genius. In which case, Sansa (not Bran) may ultimately be the one to defeat them... by leaving out trays of lemoncakes and letting them gorge themselves.

Question, inspired by Arya Havinfun bringing up the Fist: What is it that alerts the wolves to trouble? The two examples on the top of my head are Grey Wind sniffing... is it Rolf Spicer? Either way, GW smells the red wedding coming a mile away. I chalk this up to a sort of sixth sense. He smells deceit and treachery. The only other possibility I can think of is that he can see the future.

I have suggested in the past that the direwolves may in fact have some sort of limited foresight, crazy as it sounds.

The best instance of this is Summer, in GoT, when Bran's climbing the First Keep. He howls at Bran enough to give Bran chills, and this is well before the Lannisters can possibly know Bran is there, or Jaime can have any idea of throwing him out of the window.

There's no deceit or treachery to sniff yet! ...but Summer is obviously wigging out all the same.

[Uldra I]

... GRRM being from the South west and basing the North on Animism i am guessing this very widely known myth of "The Talking Tree" is very evident here.Check this

After European missionaries introduced Christianity to the Native Americans, the Yaqui of the American Southwest created a myth about a talking tree that spread the news of the new faith. One day the people came upon a tree whose vibrations made a sound that no one could understand. A wise woman who lived deep in the forest sent her daughter to interpret the sounds. The talking tree told of the Christian God and the priests who would soon arrive to teach the people new beliefs and new ways. Not everyone welcomed the coming changes. Some people left to dwell under the ground, taking the old ways with them. Those who remained became the Yaqu".

WOW! Can't get much closer than that, can we? :bowdown: