Heresy 122

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Wow, no comments of my linking of the seasons and blood sacrifice to the Weirwoods and thus the purpose of the Pact?

[Hrafntýr]

There is much more to the Crows [all ravens are crows] than there at first appears; have a look at the essay in Heresy 100 - link at the top of this page.

In the meantime a little thought for you, another conundrum over the timelines; not dates this time but the sequence of events.

Traditionally we're told that the First Men turned up and fought with the Children. That stopped with the Pact and then long afterwards came the Long Night. Oddly enough Maester Luwin says nothing about the Wall in his history of Westeros, but there's a widespread assumption that it was raised after the Winter and legend says it was built by Bran the Builder.

In the World Book there is an interesting reference to Bran seeking out the Children in order to gain their help in building it and we're told [though not how] that he learned their speech in order to do so. Sounds reasonable enough, but if this sequence is correct, how did the First Men and the Children communicate well enough to agree the Pact.

Were there interpreters and were those interpreters the Crows?

Future human greenseers reaching back in time?

This is related to the previous posts about just what sort of "power" is the power of the greenseers/weirwoods. It's something like omniscience, at least regarding events, if not motivations, though if Ned or that pregnant woman are any indication, they get motivations, too. But if they are also able to speak through the trees?

(Haha, but then again my pet crackpot is that our Bran is Bran the Builder.)

If ravens are the "interpreters," wouldn't you nevertheless still require the intervention of a greenseer? Or maybe I'm not quite following the reasoning of how it would be easier for a raven to learn the speech of both parties than for children and men to learn the speech of one another.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

So it seems all to be in the same reality; it's just that the heart of winter is a hell of a long way north.

The show's depiction of northern lights in the sky for its baby-transformation scene I interpret as a sign they were trying to show us the above place.

But it's really not clear how or why a Popsicle would breastfeed a baby for that long, long trip...

My guess is that the show was just overly dramatic, and that IF similar events happen in the books, any white walker can give the "touch", not just the Night's King, horny headed guy.

This "touch" turns their eyes blue, and freeze dries their flesh, slowing down their metabolism so they don't need food immediately, and can survive the harsh travel north.

Now personally, I suspect that when they get all the way to the Heart of Winter the babies are attached to a Weirwood or some icy equivalent. It keeps the babies alive in the same way as Bloodraven, and allows the spirit inhabiting their body to tap back into the Weirnet.

[Hrafntýr]

Wow, no comments of my linking of the seasons and blood sacrifice to the Weirwoods and thus the purpose of the Pact?

I think that it's interesting, but how do the WWs figure in to your scenario? All the stories we get of the LN include the WWs, and we are led by that connection to assume that the rising of the WWs at present suggests that we could be on the verge of another LN. But so far as we know there has been a sudden cessation in a tradition of sacrifice this time around. Unless this could tie in with the theory of lockesnow (i think it's lockesnow's theory) that the Stark in Winterfell is a hostage, basically a standing sacrifice, and that this was a core part of the Pact. I think he even suggested that Bran might have been lured to the cave to cause the breaking of the Pact, giving the CotF justification for unleashing some sort of aggression against humans.

[SunflashJT]

see post below as i messed up while editing

[JNR]

(Haha, but then again my pet crackpot is that our Bran is Bran the Builder.)

Kindly elaborate. I've expressed similar thoughts in the past, think you are on to something, and am curious about your crackpot specifics and what led you to them.

My guess is that the show was just overly dramatic, and that IF similar events happen in the books, any white walker can give the "touch", not just the Night's King, horny headed guy.

This "touch" turns their eyes blue, and freeze dries their flesh, slowing down their metabolism so they don't need food immediately, and can survive the harsh travel north.

Well, I'm not sure why there would be any trip north needed.

If there's anything to this at all, I would have expected the Popsicle at Craster's keep to wave his own Magic Fingernail at the baby, say "Frozimus popsiclus," and zip-bang-boom, job is done on the spot. Human newborn baby transformed into adult ice demon.

The HBO guys not only seem to have bought the line from Craster's wives, God bless 'em.... but also to have imagined that it couldn't be done by local Popsicles, hence needing the trip north to the Spike-Headed Popsicle King of their own feverish imagining. And they somehow forgot how far that trip would be, and how wildly implausible it would be for the baby to survive without an experienced and loving Popsicle Nanny (also of their own imagining) to serve as wetnurse, possibly offering breast milk of the lemon, cherry, grape, and rootbeer varieties.

[SunflashJT]

There have been past Heresy discussions about Moat Cailin/The Neck as Wall 1.0, brought down in the event now referred to as the Hammer of the Waters.

Personally, I think that BR is wrong/lying when he tells Bran that he can only observe through the weirnet, that he can't act. Although Theon's experiences with the Winterfell weirwood speaking his name could be a product of his own mind, I tend to think it's Bran speaking to him.

Now, you could say that this kind of intervention is a pretty insignificant form of action, it played an important role in Theon's behavior.

But, if you were talking about an extensive network of weirwoods, as is presumed to have existed back in the days before the Pact, consider such a network in combination with a guerrilla army, one that would know all the movements of its enemies. That's something, isn't it.

Also: on occasion I wonder if "waking the sleeping giants" might not mean causing all the old "dead" weirwoods to put forth new saplings again. It's only the presence of that one young weirwood down at the Whispers that makes me wonder that.

I think that BR's powers are not as keen as Bran's are. Bran will most likely be a better green seer than BR is due to his more significant power. Bran is one of the only worgs who can enter a human, i.e. Hodor.

Perfectly true, but there are a couple of problems here. In the first place sorting out a peace treaty of the kind we're told about requires rather more sophistication and in any case patience is going to be in short supply if they're actually at war at the time. And then Bran had to learn it all over again...

Alternatively, if it was down to sign language etc. then the scope for misunderstanding is enormous: "How little did we pay for Manhattan?"

And that could well account for a renewed conflict culminating in the Long Night

Very good point. I am sure that the treaty was not constructed with sign language. My guess would be that the children learned the language of the first men and the treaty was laid out that way. Bran having to learn the language to construct the wall would make sense as the Children's magic is most likely specific to their native tongue.

[Uldra I]

I think that BR's powers are not as keen as Bran's are. Bran will most likely be a better green seer than BR is due to his more significant power. Bran is one of the only worgs who can enter a human, i.e. Hodor.

Very good point. I am sure that the treaty was not constructed with sign language. My guess would be that the children learned the language of the first men and the treaty was laid out that way. Bran having to learn the language to construct the wall would make sense as the Children's magic is most likely specific to their native tongue.

You beat me to it SunFlash :) I agree.

[Black Crow]

Kindly elaborate. I've expressed similar thoughts in the past, think you are on to something, and am curious about your crackpot specifics and what led you to them.

Well, I'm not sure why there would be any trip north needed.

If there's anything to this at all, I would have expected the Popsicle at Craster's keep to wave his own Magic Fingernail at the baby, say "Frozimus popsiclus," and zip-bang-boom, job is done on the spot. Human newborn baby transformed into adult ice demon.

The HBO guys not only seem to have bought the line from Craster's wives, God bless 'em.... but also to have imagined that it couldn't be done by local Popsicles, hence needing the trip north to the Spike-Headed Popsicle King of their own feverish imagining. And they somehow forgot how far that trip would be, and how wildly implausible it would be for the baby to survive without an experienced and loving Popsicle Nanny (also of their own imagining) to serve as wetnurse, possibly offering breast milk of the lemon, cherry, grape, and rootbeer varieties.

Yeah, but in the first place we're dealing with magic, and in the second the show does necessarily have to take shortcuts both literal and metaphorical

Moreover, taking the babe off to the Man in Black is consistent with what I've being saying that if the white walkers are made rather than born, somebody has to be making them

[Uldra I]

There is much more to the Crows [all ravens are crows] than there at first appears; have a look at the essay in Heresy 100 - link at the top of this page.

...

Thanks for the tip. Found so many topics I want to read there. Are these essays reflecting somewhat of a general consensus of discussions before, or individual opinions? Guess, I'm gonna be busy reading them in any case :p Then I'm gonna have to catch up on my yardwork again, snip snip clip . Hee hee

[Direwolf Blitzer]

The HBO guys not only seem to have bought the line from Craster's wives, God bless 'em.... but also to have imagined that it couldn't be done by local Popsicles, hence needing the trip north to the Spike-Headed Popsicle King of their own feverish imagining. And they somehow forgot how far that trip would be, and how wildly implausible it would be for the baby to survive without an experienced and loving Popsicle Nanny (also of their own imagining) to serve as wetnurse, possibly offering breast milk of the lemon, cherry, grape, and rootbeer varieties.

That sounds delicious. It may also reveal that the walkers' true weakness is not heat, but diabetes, as they've all nursed on Slush Puppies from birth.

Question, inspired by Arya Havinfun bringing up the Fist: What is it that alerts the wolves to trouble? The two examples on the top of my head are Grey Wind sniffing... is it Rolf Spicer? Either way, GW smells the red wedding coming a mile away. I chalk this up to a sort of sixth sense. He smells deceit and treachery. The only other possibility I can think of is that he can see the future. Which strikes me as problematic, but plausible, given the nature of the Weirnet, the sort of "all time is now" to a tree thing that Bran experiences.

And then we have Ghost at the FotFM. He doesn't want to go in. In this instance, it seems tied to the place. There (presumably) aren't any wights lying dormant under the snow, he just doesn't like the Fist itself. To me, this lends credence to peoples' various theories about the Fist being a significant place, perhaps some kind of Others' portal. Unless the wolves can see the future, the only explanation I can think of is that the Fist is somehow a place of the Others, somewhere no warm-blooded man or wolf wants to go.

[SunflashJT]

That sounds delicious. It may also reveal that the walkers' true weakness is not heat, but diabetes, as they've all nursed on Slush Puppies from birth.

Question, inspired by Arya Havinfun bringing up the Fist: What is it that alerts the wolves to trouble? The two examples on the top of my head are Grey Wind sniffing... is it Rolf Spicer? Either way, GW smells the red wedding coming a mile away. I chalk this up to a sort of sixth sense. He smells deceit and treachery. The only other possibility I can think of is that he can see the future. Which strikes me as problematic, but plausible, given the nature of the Weirnet, the sort of "all time is now" to a tree thing that Bran experiences.

And then we have Ghost at the FotFM. He doesn't want to go in. In this instance, it seems tied to the place. There (presumably) aren't any wights lying dormant under the snow, he just doesn't like the Fist itself. To me, this lends credence to peoples' various theories about the Fist being a significant place, perhaps some kind of Others' portal. Unless the wolves can see the future, the only explanation I can think of is that the Fist is somehow a place of the Others, somewhere no warm-blooded man or wolf wants to go.

I have always considered the Stark wolves to be more supernatural than ordinary Direwolves. This probably gives them a sixth sense, call it Wolfy Sense (Spider Sense) that danger is around the corner. The only exception to that is Lady not knowing she was done for when Ned was coming.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Kindly elaborate. I've expressed similar thoughts in the past, think you are on to something, and am curious about your crackpot specifics and what led you to them.

Well, I'm not sure why there would be any trip north needed.

If there's anything to this at all, I would have expected the Popsicle at Craster's keep to wave his own Magic Fingernail at the baby, say "Frozimus popsiclus," and zip-bang-boom, job is done on the spot. Human newborn baby transformed into adult ice demon.

The HBO guys not only seem to have bought the line from Craster's wives, God bless 'em.... but also to have imagined that it couldn't be done by local Popsicles, hence needing the trip north to the Spike-Headed Popsicle King of their own feverish imagining. And they somehow forgot how far that trip would be, and how wildly implausible it would be for the baby to survive without an experienced and loving Popsicle Nanny (also of their own imagining) to serve as wetnurse, possibly offering breast milk of the lemon, cherry, grape, and rootbeer varieties.

Well, I don't believe they immediately become full adult ice demons. I think they take them North and plug them into the weirnet or some icy equivalent. I keep envisioning a giant ice weirwood tied to infants/children with blood pumping out through the ice. and collecting in the leaves that turn black as the blood congeals.

These "children" age at a slower pace due to being partially freeze dried, but they do grow and mature, all the while they are taught by the vengeful spirits that also reside in said Icy Weirwood. As their body ages further and starts to deteriorate, the flesh is replaced with Ice and Snow, until there is no human flesh and no blood left. At this point they are a full blown "White Walker" and they travel out into the world raising the dead to do their bidding until they find a new human baby with magical blood to become their next host.

[Black Crow]

Thanks for the tip. Found so many topics I want to read there. Are these essays reflecting somewhat of a general consensus of discussions before, or individual opinions? Guess, I'm gonna be busy reading them in any case :P Then I'm gonna have to catch up on my yardwork again, snip snip clip . Hee hee

It's a series of specially commissioned essays in the run up to Heresy 100. Each served as the OP to a thread devoted to that topic and there's a link to that thread at the end of the essay.

[Black Crow]

... Unless the wolves can see the future, the only explanation I can think of is that the Fist is somehow a place of the Others, somewhere no warm-blooded man or wolf wants to go.

Alternatively, given that it is the First of the First Men it may have been warded against the Old Gods and their servants - including Ghost

[Voice]

So much to read; need time to catch up but something interesting occured to me sometime ago and i remembered it during BTC statement last thread "Greenseers are not born, they are made"

To go back to BR's and Bran's conversation:

"Will this make me a Greenseer?"

"your blood makes you a greenseer" Lord Brynden said "this will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees(ADWD,Bran pg,404,electrinic version)."

This too me says that yes a Greenseer is born,but they could be grounded.The paste was just to marry/ground Bran to the weirwood trees but it had no affect on him being a GS he was always that just like his siblings.

This also means that the other Stark kids could have the same happen to them,they too could be married to something else and be just as badass for what ever THAT is .The wielders just have to get them.

Mel proposed that she could teach Jon to tap into his power and into his beast's power.Which is no different than the COTF to Bran.Coaxing him to come over,Mel was trying to do the same.

The Stark kids are magical tools and certain agencies are fixing to use them all may not be magica( LF/Sansa) Sansa kind of have an empath thing going on she's being groomed to know people.They are Avatars, the spirit centers of the elements so to speak .

Bran-Earth

Arya-Water

Sansa-Air

Jon-maybe the primodial forces of ice and Fire ( the realm is fracked if he falls into the wrong hands).

So it depends what intentions do the COTF/BR have when it comes to Bran,will they collect the other kids( tree dreams already happening to Arya and Jon) or will somebody else take them?

I don't know about the other Starks sharing fates similar to Bran. I think they each have their own important roles to fill. But thank you for reminding us about Bran's blood making him a greenseer.

:agree:

Thank you for looking this up, that's how I remembered it but wasn't sure.

Re: trigger events, I suggested at the end of H121 that maybe it was the burning of Rickard Stark that was the trigger? Killing a Stark (ice) with fire might not be something the Great Other (or whoever is in charge up north) can accept.

However, early in the series, Mormont mentions to Jon (on the way to Craster's) how rangers have been disappearing for the last 2 years. Mance also has been assembling his host for presumably a few months or a year or two. So conditions in the far North have been "iffy" for 2 years or less. If the ww's started preparing for the LN 15 years ago, it seems strange that there was no sign of this until recently. Maybe we could look for trigger events that occurred a couple of years before the start of GoT?

The only one that comes to mind (and I doubt this is it) is that Domeric was killed 2 years earlier, after which Ramsay moved in at the Dreadfort. Surely there are other events that fit better. Any ideas?

I just checked out your post from H121. Rickard is a good guess. I don't think he's the trigger, but I could definitely be wrong.

The "2 years" connection may be on the right track. Finds like that will definitely lead us to the answer.

To be clear, I do not have any really good ideas for this trigger yet. I'm not holding any aces up my sleeve on this one. The more ideas, the better.

I think it might have started out on a smaller scale, i.e. the greenseer would look through the weirnet and tell the other Singers "hey guys, there are some giants down in the hollow by the stream... maybe go hunt somewhere else today." So they weren't using the "gift" to watch the kingdoms of men at first, but for their own purposes. The GS can communicate with whoever comes to his cave, so the Singers would always be well informed.

As for the earliest human greenseers... well, remember the FM used to use ravens to communicate, with the birds literally speaking to the people. So the human greenseers (including Bran, theoretically, once he figures this out) could send ravens to their friends down south and tell them things. I think I've read a theory on here before that BR actually uses Mormont's raven in this way, and influenced the results of the LC election. It is mentioned over and over how the bird is old and ragged looking - maybe he is the last one that can speak the words a GS wants it to say?

I honestly have no idea what they want with Bran... but I agree it's more than just sit and watch. I almost get the feeling that, just as there always has to be a Stark in WF, there always has to be a GS under the tree. As one gets absorbed by the tree too much (and thus can't communicate anymore, like the CotF GS's Bran sees in the other cave) another must take his place. But I have no idea why this would be the case.... (well I do, but that theory is not ready for prime time lol!).

ETA: speaking of Mormont's raven... it's interesting how Jon seems to inherit it. I wonder how many LC's have carried it on their shoulders? Also note how the wildlings refer to the NW brothers as Crows. Is it only b/c they wear black, or is there more to it? Bran's cave is full of crows as well....

Even if it has been forgotten, was there once a connection between the NW and the GS?? And if so, for what purpose?

Some really good points here. And yes, I think we can safely assume the NW traditionally maintained a connection with the GS. BR certainly bridged that gap long ago, and may not have been the first to do so. The purpose for such a connection would seem to be counsel. As we know, the annals are in disarray, disintegrating, and lacking details. If a LC could contact a GS, many questions could be answered regarding issues facing the NW.

[Voice]

Marwyn seems to be able to do some magic, and has lots of Valyrian steel items in his possession. He may not be a red priest so perhaps it's just magical blood in general.

I think Marwyn may be our Westerosi version of Quaithe, rather than a red priest.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think that it's interesting, but how do the WWs figure in to your scenario? All the stories we get of the LN include the WWs, and we are led by that connection to assume that the rising of the WWs at present suggests that we could be on the verge of another LN. But so far as we know there has been a sudden cessation in a tradition of sacrifice this time around. Unless this could tie in with the theory of lockesnow (i think it's lockesnow's theory) that the Stark in Winterfell is a hostage, basically a standing sacrifice, and that this was a core part of the Pact. I think he even suggested that Bran might have been lured to the cave to cause the breaking of the Pact, giving the CotF justification for unleashing some sort of aggression against humans.

Only because I was only speaking of the first Long Night. I believe at the end of the first Long Night, when men "defeated" the White Walkers, that a second Pact, or perhaps an addendum to the first was made.

It's possible that what ended the Long Night wasn't the literal sacrifice of 100 men of the original Night's Watch.

Regardless, the new agreement would state that a new line of demarcation would be drawn (ie the Wall). Everything North of the Wall would be reserved to the Old Gods of the Children, everything South of the Wall would be left to Men, with the one exception of the Weirwood mound at Winterfell, where Bran the Builder would found a line of First Men that would pledge to continue to serve the Old Gods. They would become the "Kings of Winter" and would found the Stark line, thus the reason there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

The sacrifices of the 100 kingdoms of the First Men would be replaced by the figurative sacrifice of the Night's Watch who are pledging their lives to the demarcation between the realms of men and the Old Gods of the Children. Those First Men who wished to continue following the Old Ways and continue making sacrifices to the Old Gods would be allowed to live North of the wall (ie the Wildlings).

I see two possible answers (if not both) as to why the revised Pact has now been broken. One involved the "figurative sacrifices", because the point behind these was that followers of the Old Gods would pledge their lives to man the wall. However, as the Andals invaded, and became part of the Night's Watch, they stopped taking their oath before a Heart Tree, and as time has passed, perhaps we have gotten to a point where there are no longer 100 men of the Night's Watch that took their vows before the Weirwoods.

The second aspect is the Stark in Winterfell. I believe the crypts are the key here. When the Starks leaders are laid to rest and entombed, I think their blood and flesh absorbs into the dirt in the crypts and finds it's way to the Weirwood, and thus they are sacrificed to the Old Gods upon their death. However, Rickard and then Brandon were killed in the South, and Rickard was consumed by by fire, meaning there was most likely only ashes left of him, with no blood left to serve as the sacrifice. Brandon likely new of this ritual as Rickard's first son, but Eddard was likely never told when they both died together. Perhaps that's why Brandon was so desperate to save his father from burning that he literally strangled himself to death.

And then of course Eddard was beheaded, and I'm not sure his bones have ever made it back to the Crypts have they, and how about Robbs?

So I'm not sure which broke the revised Pact, or perhaps as a combination of all of that, but it appears that the Night's Watch has no longer "remained true" and that there is no longer "a Stark in Winterfell".

So I think the Stark words "Winter is Coming" means it's time for the sacrifice, and the "North Remembers" is referring to the Pact, and why the Royce's words "We Remember" are so ironic, because they have in fact forgotten.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think Marwyn may be our Westerosi version of Quaithe, rather than a red priest.

Thus why I made the distinction that perhaps only magical blood is needed.

[SunflashJT]

Only because I was only speaking of the first Long Night. I believe at the end of the first Long Night, when men "defeated" the White Walkers, that a second Pact, or perhaps an addendum to the first was made.

It's possible that what ended the Long Night wasn't the literal sacrifice of 100 men of the original Night's Watch.

Regardless, the new agreement would state that a new line of demarcation would be drawn (ie the Wall). Everything North of the Wall would be reserved to the Old Gods of the Children, everything South of the Wall would be left to Men, with the one exception of the Weirwood mound at Winterfell, where Bran the Builder would found a line of First Men that would pledge to continue to serve the Old Gods. They would become the "Kings of Winter" and would found the Stark line, thus the reason there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

The sacrifices of the 100 kingdoms of the First Men would be replaced by the figurative sacrifice of the Night's Watch who are pledging their lives to the demarcation between the realms of men and the Old Gods of the Children. Those First Men who wished to continue following the Old Ways and continue making sacrifices to the Old Gods would be allowed to live North of the wall (ie the Wildlings).

I see two possible answers (if not both) as to why the revised Pact has now been broken. One involved the "figurative sacrifices", because the point behind these was that followers of the Old Gods would pledge their lives to man the wall. However, as the Andals invaded, and became part of the Night's Watch, they stopped taking their oath before a Heart Tree, and as time has passed, perhaps we have gotten to a point where there are no longer 100 men of the Night's Watch that took their vows before the Weirwoods.

The second aspect is the Stark in Winterfell. I believe the crypts are the key here. When the Starks leaders are laid to rest and entombed, I think their blood and flesh absorbs into the dirt in the crypts and finds it's way to the Weirwood, and thus they are sacrificed to the Old Gods upon their death. However, Rickard and then Brandon were killed in the South, and Rickard was consumed by by fire, meaning there was most likely only ashes left of him, with no blood left to serve as the sacrifice. Brandon likely new of this ritual as Rickard's first son, but Eddard was likely never told when they both died together. Perhaps that's why Brandon was so desperate to save his father from burning that he literally strangled himself to death.

And then of course Eddard was beheaded, and I'm not sure his bones have ever made it back to the Crypts have they, and how about Robbs?

So I'm not sure which broke the revised Pact, or perhaps as a combination of all of that, but it appears that the Night's Watch has no longer "remained true" and that there is no longer "a Stark in Winterfell".

So I think the Stark words "Winter is Coming" means it's time for the sacrifice, and the "North Remembers" is referring to the Pact, and why the Royce's words "We Remember" are so ironic, because they have in fact forgotten.

:bowdown: Pretty good post here, I like the correlation between the Stark in Winterfell and NW.