Heresy 122

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Re: trigger events, I suggested at the end of H121 that maybe it was the burning of Rickard Stark that was the trigger? Killing a Stark (ice) with fire might not be something the Great Other (or whoever is in charge up north) can accept.

However, early in the series, Mormont mentions to Jon (on the way to Craster's) how rangers have been disappearing for the last 2 years. Mance also has been assembling his host for presumably a few months or a year or two. So conditions in the far North have been "iffy" for 2 years or less. If the ww's started preparing for the LN 15 years ago, it seems strange that there was no sign of this until recently. Maybe we could look for trigger events that occurred a couple of years before the start of GoT?

The only one that comes to mind (and I doubt this is it) is that Domeric was killed 2 years earlier, after which Ramsay moved in at the Dreadfort. Surely there are other events that fit better. Any ideas?

I definitely think it could have been Rickard Stark's death (and subsequent burial without the required blood sacrifice) that triggered it, possibly in addition to the makeup of the men at the Wall.

The reason it took 17 years, is that the Greenseer spirits needed new hosts to become White Walkers, and they accomplished this through Craster's wives. I suspect that his original wife got a calling from the "Cold Gods" that required livings sons to be sacrificed. She found Craster, and so began the sacrifice, providing hosts to become White Walkers. It took them time to grow up, and his oldest sons are just now old/large enough to become full fledged white walkers.

[Voice]

snip

Good stuff, but the lapse in sacrifices would have begun long, long ago. And following your proposal, the breach of Pact would have happened so very long ago that we should have experienced a 2nd Long Night generations ago. I think people are reading a bit too much into the idea of GS's becoming part of the godhood. Not that it's insignificant, I just think the godhood is very inclusive and includes many things that have never been GS's.

[SunflashJT]

I definitely think it could have been Rickard Stark's death (and subsequent burial without the required blood sacrifice) that triggered it, possibly in addition to the makeup of the men at the Wall.

The reason it took 17 years, is that the Greenseer spirits needed new hosts to become White Walkers, and they accomplished this through Craster's wives. I suspect that his original wife got a calling from the "Cold Gods" that required livings sons to be sacrificed. She found Craster, and so began the sacrifice, providing hosts to become White Walkers. It took them time to grow up, and his oldest sons are just now old/large enough to become full fledged white walkers.

:blink: WHOA (Keanu Reeves Style)

[Voice]

There is much more to the Crows [all ravens are crows] than there at first appears; have a look at the essay in Heresy 100 - link at the top of this page.

In the meantime a little thought for you, another conundrum over the timelines; not dates this time but the sequence of events.

Traditionally we're told that the First Men turned up and fought with the Children. That stopped with the Pact and then long afterwards came the Long Night. Oddly enough Maester Luwin says nothing about the Wall in his history of Westeros, but there's a widespread assumption that it was raised after the Winter and legend says it was built by Bran the Builder.

In the World Book there is an interesting reference to Bran seeking out the Children in order to gain their help in building it and we're told [though not how] that he learned their speech in order to do so. Sounds reasonable enough, but if this sequence is correct, how did the First Men and the Children communicate well enough to agree the Pact.

Were there interpreters and were those interpreters the Crows?

Could very well have been the crows.

However taking an example of actual history, how did the Europeans first begin to successfully communicate with the Native Americans. Through patience and a lot of sign language. Just another thought there.

Native Americans learned English very quickly and all treaty negotiations were conducted in English. Often there were interpreters present as well, but negotiations took place in English.

There is no reason to think that the CotF wouldn't have already mastered the common tongue by the time of the Pact. And, there is no reason to think that Bran the Builder was the first of the First Men to learn the language of the CotF...

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Good stuff, but the lapse in sacrifices would have begun long, long ago. And following your proposal, the breach of Pact would have happened so very long ago that we should have experienced a 2nd Long Night generations ago. I think people are reading a bit too much into the idea of GS's becoming part of the godhood. Not that it's insignificant, I just think the godhood is very inclusive and includes many things that have never been GS's.

If you notice in the first book, Eddard is cleaning Ice at the pool next to the weirwood. I think this is how the sacrifices continued. Those that were sentenced to death with sacrificed at the Heart Trees, and it became the laws of the Old Gods and got passed down that way long after they'd forgotten the Pact.

[Uldra I]

There is much more to the Crows [all ravens are crows] than there at first appears; have a look at the essay in Heresy 100 - link at the top of this page.

In the meantime a little thought for you, another conundrum over the timelines; not dates this time but the sequence of events.

Traditionally we're told that the First Men turned up and fought with the Children. That stopped with the Pact and then long afterwards came the Long Night. Oddly enough Maester Luwin says nothing about the Wall in his history of Westeros, but there's a widespread assumption that it was raised after the Winter and legend says it was built by Bran the Builder.

In the World Book there is an interesting reference to Bran seeking out the Children in order to gain their help in building it and we're told [though not how] that he learned their speech in order to do so. Sounds reasonable enough, but if this sequence is correct, how did the First Men and the Children communicate well enough to agree the Pact.

Were there interpreters and were those interpreters the Crows?

Really liked the article about the Crow/Ravens. That essay may hold the answer to your question about the communication between FM and CotF for the Pact. Still reading other essays.

Think I may have found a discrepancy on the Timeline essay, and I thought it might interest you.

The thing about Essosi history is that it doesn't suffer from the same mistranslation and after-the-fact recording as Westerosi history does. The cultures in Essos such as the Ghiscari, Valyrians and Rhoynar have been lettered and in constant existence from these ancient events to the present day. We are told that the Valyrians and the Ghiscari fought a series of major wars around 5000 years ago, if the True Histories are to be believed this would place these Valyrian/Ghiscari wars at the same time as the Andals were invading Westeros. This would therefore have to mean that the Valyrians were fighting a major war with the Rhoynar simultaneously to their major war with the Ghiscari, which is unlikely. It is much more likely that only after subjugating the Ghiscari and spending some time consolidating their hold on the East, that the Valyrians would turn West and come in to confrontaion with the Rhoynar.

The author is telling us in the same paragraph how much more reliable and trustworthy the histories of Essos are than for Westeros, and how they messed up the timeline for the Andal invasion of the West. Plus, the events he is trying to make fit together in a more cohesive progression timing-wise wouldn't have a conflict to begin with if he used the timeline from wiki. There, the Andal Invasion occurred, ca. 6,000 years ago, not 5,000. Not sure, but is this the timing conflict you were speaking of a couple threads ago? Wouldn't this clear up the problem?

[Black Crow]

Bearing in mind that this is the Song of Ice and Fire the catalyst, particularly given the timings, is rather more likely to be what went down at Summerhall.

[Hrafntýr]

Kindly elaborate. I've expressed similar thoughts in the past, think you are on to something, and am curious about your crackpot specifics and what led you to them.

It begins, of course, with the name. All those Brandons. In itself, not particularly unorthodox, given the tendency for repeated names in real life royal or priestly lineages. But Old Nan's little tweaks to the nose when she's spooking Bran out with her stories of creepy Starks past causes one to perk up one's ears.

And then we get to the cave of the Children, and Bran starts his training, and he's suddenly moving back through time, and we get the possibility of a means. As I noted above, I do believe that the Theon chapters (or the chapters of the once and future Theon) in ADwD show the potential for more than mere observation on the part of Bran. And it's possible to interpret Jon's dream in which Bran appears as a weirwood (back in ACoK) as Bran having reached into the past.

The WoW Theon chapter might suggest that Bran is capable of skinchanging ravens, though as BC will always suggest, the ravens could be acting as free agents. But given that Bran can skinchange humans, it's plausible, but here it would be happening at a great distance. If he can skinchange ravens at the crofter's village, why not any sort of being? Can he do so in the past?

But that speaks only to Bran influencing past, present, or future events in a general way. Why Bran the Builder, specifically? I think that it's the chapter in GoT when Bran is out climbing that really set me thinking along these lines, of course only upon rereads, after I had the Cave reveals. Here are a few of the key lines from that chapter:

"The place has grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth."

When he sits on high above the First Keep for hours at a time observing the life of the castle, "It made him feel like he was lord of the castle, in a way even Robb would never know."

"It taught him Winterfell's secrets too"

"Most of all, he liked going places that no one else could go, and seeing the grey sprawl of Winterfell in a way that no one else ever saw it. It made the whole castle Bran's secret place."

Bran knows the secrets of Winterfell. He knows the chinks between the stones, understands how it fits into its uneven topography. It gets a little timey wimey to start thinking about present/future Bran influencing his younger self to get this knowledge that his present self would need in order to then influence/be Bran the Builder (whose knowledge, then, would also have become part of present Bran's knowledge).

It's not a lot to go on. By all means, if you've been thinking along these lines for some time, JNR, do share, or point me in the direction of where you've posted your thoughts! For example, even if Bran has a special knowledge of Winterfell, what about Storm's End and the Wall?

[TheTowerOfJoy]

Bearing in mind that this is the Song of Ice and Fire the catalyst, particularly given the timings, is rather more likely to be what went down at Summerhall.

So you think the first one was the Doom then?

[Black Crow]

Really liked the article about the Crow/Ravens. That essay may hold the answer to your question about the communication between FM and CotF for the Pact. Still reading other essays.

Think I may have found a discrepancy on the Timeline essay, and I thought it might interest you.

The author is telling us in the same paragraph how much more reliable and trustworthy the histories of Essos are than for Westeros, and how they messed up the timeline for the Andal invasion of the West. Plus, the events he is trying to make fit together in a more cohesive progression timing-wise wouldn't have a conflict to begin with if he used the timeline from wiki. There, the Andal Invasion occurred, ca. 6,000 years ago, not 5,000. Not sure, but is this the timing conflict you were speaking of a couple threads ago? Wouldn't this clear up the problem?

Ah, you need to read the subsequent discussion thread, where this is addressed.

[Voice]

There have been past Heresy discussions about Moat Cailin/The Neck as Wall 1.0, brought down in the event now referred to as the Hammer of the Waters.

Personally, I think that BR is wrong/lying when he tells Bran that he can only observe through the weirnet, that he can't act. Although Theon's experiences with the Winterfell weirwood speaking his name could be a product of his own mind, I tend to think it's Bran speaking to him.

Now, you could say that this kind of intervention is a pretty insignificant form of action, it played an important role in Theon's behavior.

But, if you were talking about an extensive network of weirwoods, as is presumed to have existed back in the days before the Pact, consider such a network in combination with a guerrilla army, one that would know all the movements of its enemies. That's something, isn't it.

Also: on occasion I wonder if "waking the sleeping giants" might not mean causing all the old "dead" weirwoods to put forth new saplings again. It's only the presence of that one young weirwood down at the Whispers that makes me wonder that.

I think BR was truthful about the nature of the weirnet - only observing and not interacting. I know the examples used to argue otherwise, I just interpret them differently. I think the GS emotional state becomes that of the Weirwood itself, so that when we see the memories respond to the heart tree, they are doing just that, and Bran is simply along for the emotional ride.

The last part in bold I think is really cool, and may have solved the mystery of waking giants from the earth. The Horn screams "Old Gods" to me, and this is a very plausible connection in my opinion.

[SunflashJT]

Bearing in mind that this is the Song of Ice and Fire the catalyst, particularly given the timings, is rather more likely to be what went down at Summerhall.

How so, Starks = Ice and Rickard was burned alive, Ice & Fire. But please elaborate about Summerhall as an aspect of this.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I think BR was truthful about the nature of the weirnet - only observing and not interacting. I know the examples used to argue otherwise, I just interpret them differently. I think the GS emotional state becomes that of the Weirwood itself, so that when we see the memories respond to the heart tree, they are doing just that, and Bran is simply along for the emotional ride.

The last part in bold I think is really cool, and may have solved the mystery of waking giants from the earth. The Horn screams "Old Gods" to me, and this is a very plausible connection in my opinion.

Does Bloodraven ever actually say they can't interact? I thought he was only talking about the past, meaning even though you can see the past, you can't change it, but that doesn't mean that you can't interact in the present and change the future, just not the past.

[Voice]

Well, I'm not sure why there would be any trip north needed.

If there's anything to this at all, I would have expected the Popsicle at Craster's keep to wave his own Magic Fingernail at the baby, say "Frozimus popsiclus," and zip-bang-boom, job is done on the spot. Human newborn baby transformed into adult ice demon.

The HBO guys not only seem to have bought the line from Craster's wives, God bless 'em.... but also to have imagined that it couldn't be done by local Popsicles, hence needing the trip north to the Spike-Headed Popsicle King of their own feverish imagining. And they somehow forgot how far that trip would be, and how wildly implausible it would be for the baby to survive without an experienced and loving Popsicle Nanny (also of their own imagining) to serve as wetnurse, possibly offering breast milk of the lemon, cherry, grape, and rootbeer varieties.

:lol: LOL

I think HBO's episode 4 epilogue must have some bit of truth in it. The location shows the curtain of light. It is in the far north (though the journey was impractically compressed). And they quickly changed the synopsis when someone accidentally leaked that NK transformed CS. I do not accept it as canon, but I do think it is drawn from canon, and comes from a personal chat, a SSM session with D&D. This was simply far too large a reveal to have been pulled from thin air. I know they have pulled much already from thin air, but nothing this significant, IMO.

[Hrafntýr]

I definitely think it could have been Rickard Stark's death (and subsequent burial without the required blood sacrifice) that triggered it, possibly in addition to the makeup of the men at the Wall.

The reason it took 17 years, is that the Greenseer spirits needed new hosts to become White Walkers, and they accomplished this through Craster's wives. I suspect that his original wife got a calling from the "Cold Gods" that required livings sons to be sacrificed. She found Craster, and so began the sacrifice, providing hosts to become White Walkers. It took them time to grow up, and his oldest sons are just now old/large enough to become full fledged white walkers.

But there have surely been previous Starks who died elsewhere and whose bodies weren't returned to Winterfell without causing a violation of the Pact. Brandon the Shipwright comes to mind.

[Uldra I]

Only because I was only speaking of the first Long Night. I believe at the end of the first Long Night, when men "defeated" the White Walkers, that a second Pact, or perhaps an addendum to the first was made.

It's possible that what ended the Long Night wasn't the literal sacrifice of 100 men of the original Night's Watch.

Regardless, the new agreement would state that a new line of demarcation would be drawn (ie the Wall). Everything North of the Wall would be reserved to the Old Gods of the Children, everything South of the Wall would be left to Men, with the one exception of the Weirwood mound at Winterfell, where Bran the Builder would found a line of First Men that would pledge to continue to serve the Old Gods. They would become the "Kings of Winter" and would found the Stark line, thus the reason there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

The sacrifices of the 100 kingdoms of the First Men would be replaced by the figurative sacrifice of the Night's Watch who are pledging their lives to the demarcation between the realms of men and the Old Gods of the Children. Those First Men who wished to continue following the Old Ways and continue making sacrifices to the Old Gods would be allowed to live North of the wall (ie the Wildlings).

I see two possible answers (if not both) as to why the revised Pact has now been broken. One involved the "figurative sacrifices", because the point behind these was that followers of the Old Gods would pledge their lives to man the wall. However, as the Andals invaded, and became part of the Night's Watch, they stopped taking their oath before a Heart Tree, and as time has passed, perhaps we have gotten to a point where there are no longer 100 men of the Night's Watch that took their vows before the Weirwoods.

The second aspect is the Stark in Winterfell. I believe the crypts are the key here. When the Starks leaders are laid to rest and entombed, I think their blood and flesh absorbs into the dirt in the crypts and finds it's way to the Weirwood, and thus they are sacrificed to the Old Gods upon their death. However, Rickard and then Brandon were killed in the South, and Rickard was consumed by by fire, meaning there was most likely only ashes left of him, with no blood left to serve as the sacrifice. Brandon likely new of this ritual as Rickard's first son, but Eddard was likely never told when they both died together. Perhaps that's why Brandon was so desperate to save his father from burning that he literally strangled himself to death.

And then of course Eddard was beheaded, and I'm not sure his bones have ever made it back to the Crypts have they, and how about Robbs?

So I'm not sure which broke the revised Pact, or perhaps as a combination of all of that, but it appears that the Night's Watch has no longer "remained true" and that there is no longer "a Stark in Winterfell".

So I think the Stark words "Winter is Coming" means it's time for the sacrifice, and the "North Remembers" is referring to the Pact, and why the Royce's words "We Remember" are so ironic, because they have in fact forgotten.

Really love your ideas... great food for thought, and also a lot of points I've been toying with in mind as well. :) Especially intrigued by your take on how the crypts may be involved with the Stark always in WF thing. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Voice]

If you notice in the first book, Eddard is cleaning Ice at the pool next to the weirwood. I think this is how the sacrifices continued. Those that were sentenced to death with sacrificed at the Heart Trees, and it became the laws of the Old Gods and got passed down that way long after they'd forgotten the Pact.

That doesn't work, because white walkers return in the chapter before we are shown Eddard cleaning Ice in the pool. That means he was keeping up his end of the Pact, and the white walkers returned despite Stark adherence to the agreement.

[Voice]

Bearing in mind that this is the Song of Ice and Fire the catalyst, particularly given the timings, is rather more likely to be what went down at Summerhall.

I had a similar feeling. GRRM said he always knew the greenseer Bran finds would be a Targaryen. He wasn't certain of who it would be (as of 1995), but he knew it would be a Targ. That is very interesting to me. The fact that he felt it was needed to have a Targaryen descendant wedded to the weirnet, to instruct Bran, is very telling. I just don't know what it is telling LOL...

Summerhall is one such hidden in plain sight candidate that I find very likely to play a role in current events. The Dunk and Egg novellas are building up to it as well, which is telling in regards to Summerhall's significance. Summer-hall and Winter-fell...and now both are a ruin...hmmm...

[Hrafntýr]

Does Bloodraven ever actually say they can't interact? I thought he was only talking about the past, meaning even though you can see the past, you can't change it, but that doesn't mean that you can't interact in the present and change the future, just not the past.

You're right, BR says definitively that they can't interact in the past, but doesn't indicate whether the greenseer can speak with those in the present. But I, at least, was curious as to whether BR's statement is true. I think I believe him when he says that he's tried and failed to speak with his "ghosts." It's true for him. Does it mean that it will be true for Bran?

[Hrafntýr]

I had a similar feeling. GRRM said he always knew the greenseer Bran finds would be a Targaryen. He wasn't certain of who it would be (as of 1995), but he knew it would be a Targ. That is very interesting to me. The fact that he felt it was needed to have a Targaryen descendant wedded to the weirnet, to instruct Bran, is very telling. I just don't know what it is telling LOL...

Summerhall is one such hidden in plain sight candidate that I find very likely to play a role in current events. The Dunk and Egg novellas are building up to it as well, which is telling in regards to Summerhall's significance. Summer-hall and Winter-fell...and now both are a ruin...hmmm...

Whoa. Somehow I've never heard this one. Definitely mind blown, and needing to think about this. I don't suppose you've got a link to the SSM or anything, do you?