R+L=J v.85

[Black Crow]

Jon will probably always identify more with the Starks than with Rhaegar, no matter what he finds out. He was raised a Stark with a beloved passel of Stark siblings, after all.

As for Hot Pie and Arya--EWWWW! LOL!

Jon Snow: "My mother... and Rhaegar - EWWWW!"

[Juliet Burke]

Why do you think Allfie Allen said about incest in his interview?

“You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow’s real parents were, and he told me. I can’t say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It’s definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that’s why there’s incest with the Targaryen line. It’s toned down, though.”

R+L weren't related, so why did he speak about it? And what do you think [h]it's toned down[/h] means?

[BearQueen87]

Why do you think Allfie Allen said about incest in his interview?

“You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow’s real parents were, and he told me. I can’t say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It’s definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that’s why there’s incest with the Targaryen line. It’s toned down, though.”

R+L weren't related, so why did he speak about it? And what do you think [h]it's toned down[/h] means?

Do you have a link to this? The way it is worded makes it sound like Alfie himself didn't say this, but rather the person who interviewed him is putting his own spin on what Alfie has said.

Also...are we 100% sure that Alfie Allen would spill THE BIG SECRET to someone? That's careless. And frankly, a good way to get fired in the TV industry.

[J. Stargaryen]

Ah, man, you can't bring common sense and logic into any discussion of Jon's parents and expect it to avail you much. It shall avail you naught.

But of course you're right. When, on the show, Hot Pie twice bakes Arya a loaf of bread shaped like a direwolf, that doesn't suddenly make the direwolf a sigil of

1. Hot Pie

2. Hot Pie and Arya

3. Hot Pie and Arya and their possible-but-unrevealed marriage, baby, and true love

Rather, the direwolf remains the sigil of House Stark. Hot Pie is not involved except in the most peripheral way. Full stop, the end.

That said, I'm sure many would reason otherwise, and would go on to dedicate years of their lives to explaining all the many ways the elements cited in 3. can be extrapolated from a close analysis of the show. In this, however, they would simply be wasting their time and laying the foundation of their own future embarrassment.

Here we go again. JNR wants to insult me, but isn't adult enough to address me directly. This has happened before. Scroll down just a few posts to read my response, in which I point out the obvious flaws in his argument.

Later in the same thread, he did work up the courage to address me, here. Progress! Again, scroll down a bit to see my response. (Spoiler alert: He mistakes feeling 100% certain about R+L=J with having conclusive proof.) Since that didn't turn out too well for him, I guess he's back to indirectly insulting me.

Admittedly, I do open myself up to criticism by sharing my analysis. Objectively speaking, my interpretations could be wrong, after all. On the other hand we have JNR, who has theories of which he is quite certain, but is unwilling to share them with the community. Why not, I once asked? "Oh, the same reason I don't publish any of my theories.

I can't demonstrate it with 100% certainty, and would therefore have to spend weeks or months or years defending it, sometimes from people who think Ned isn't dead. This would get really tiresome." - Link

Uh, right. Including the previous version of his account, he has something like 2000 posts. Yet he can't be bothered to, you know, post here I guess. It is at this point that I'm supposed to make a certain joke, so allow me. If anyone believes that obvious load of BS, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Thank you.

JNR, I don't think you're being honest with us. In fact, I think you're a fraud, at least in this regard. I think you pretend to have solved these mysteries so that you can claim a position of authority that you have no right to. And by not posting any of your own analyses, if any even exists, you protect yourself from the kinds of criticism you like to direct at others.

1. You called the concept of how the Tudor rose was made convoluted. You did, and I am sorry for the mix up of a direct statement about the Tudor rose. I was just going by extention.

No I didn't.

[Aeron_Damphair]

Why do you think Allfie Allen said about incest in his interview?

“You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow’s real parents were, and he told me. I can’t say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It’s definitely fucked up, but it definitely happened back then, so that’s why there’s incest with the Targaryen line. It’s toned down, though.”

R+L weren't related, so why did he speak about it? And what do you think [h]it's toned down[/h] means?

Well, one potential explanation would be the natural assumption that a lot of readers make that Jon and Dany will be romantically entwined in some way, whether they end up together or not and the dramatic reveal that they are actually related, after not knowing of their shared biological origin.

[Alia of the knife]

Or.......,

Maybe Jon will marry both of his "sisters,"(cousins)...... ;), bring full circle the saga of Aegon the Conquoror.

[XSarellaX]

Come on it was adorable, it was. You have to admit it. I just wanted to give Maknirak a big old hug and maybe a noogie.

It was adorable... But I was afraid you'd start confusing him

I haven't read anything about it in this topic, but then again it is v.85, so I imagine it was mentioned in earlier posts, if you could link me to the thread where the blue rose on the Wall was discussed I would appreciate it.

Don't worry about repeating what other people have said though... There are thousands of threads here, no one can read all of them, so that happens with everyone. It's just that Dany's visions in the house of the undying have been discussed to death (though someone always finds something new to add)

Blue roses as a Rosetta Stone

Sweetness as negative in aSoIaF

(this one is quite famous... I don't really agree with it, but is quoted very often)

_______________________________________________________________________________

I think the winter roses could work as a symbol for Rhegar too, since he used them to very public manifest his interest in Lyanna Stark. It represents not only Lyanna, but their relationship, IMO.

Besides, I'm sure Jon can adopt a rose his symbol a and still look manly. It could be just a sign of respect for the mother he never met,

[bridgettblaah]

Soo I totally agree with r+l=j. Its very obvious (well, obvious after reading soooooo many people's thought) but Im just thinking. Okay we know who Jon is. And Jon will find out who he is. But who says he'll believe it? And if he does believe it, who says anyone else will believe it? I just have a hard time seeing Jon trying to convince people of who he is. Idk maybe this has been discussed before but I havent seen it yet and I want to see what people think will go down with it. So yeaaaa.

[Ygritte]

Soo I totally agree with r+l=j. Its very obvious (well, obvious after reading soooooo many people's thought) but Im just thinking. Okay we know who Jon is. And Jon will find out who he is. But who says he'll believe it? And if he does believe it, who says anyone else will believe it? I just have a hard time seeing Jon trying to convince people of who he is. Idk maybe this has been discussed before but I havent seen it yet and I want to see what people think will go down with it. So yeaaaa.

Well, it all depends on what his parentage ends up being relevant for. If it's about trying to gain the Iron Throne, then yeah, he'd have to get some people to believe it. But I don't think his parentage is necessarily going to be used to get him the Iron Throne. The significance may be magical instead; i.e. he's able to do something in the magical world because he has "king's blood" or he fits a prophecy because he's the son(g) of ice and fire.

[J. Stargaryen]

It was adorable... But I was afraid you'd start confusing him

Don't worry about repeating what other people have said though... There are thousands of threads here, no one can read all of them, so that happens with everyone. It's just that Dany's visions in the house of the undying have been discussed to death (though someone always finds something new to add)

Blue roses as a Rosetta Stone

Sweetness as negative in aSoIaF

(this one is quite famous... I don't really agree with it, but is quoted very often)

_______________________________________________________________________________

I think the winter roses could work as a symbol for Rhegar too, since he used them to very public manifest his interest in Lyanna Stark. It represents not only Lyanna, but their relationship, IMO.

Besides, I'm sure Jon can adopt a rose his symbol a and still look manly. It could be just a sign of respect for the mother he never met,

I would say that the blue roses aren't so much a symbol of Rhaegar, but a symbol of R+L. What does R+L equal? :)

I wrote a little post about it here. It's mostly review for anyone who has read my Rosetta Stone thread.

[BearQueen87]

I agree with Ygritte. The R+L = J isn't going to matter for the Iron Throne (personally, I think it and KL's will be wiped out before the series ends) but it matters in the War for the Dawn and the role Jon is going to play in that--whether you believe him to be TPTWP, AAR, or even Lightbringer.

[Extra Crispy Dracarys]

Well, it all depends on what his parentage ends up being relevant for. If it's about trying to gain the Iron Throne, then yeah, he'd have to get some people to believe it. But I don't think his parentage is necessarily going to be used to get him the Iron Throne. The significance may be magical instead; i.e. he's able to do something in the magical world because he has "king's blood" or he fits a prophecy because he's the son(g) of ice and fire.

See, the whole "kings blood" deal is really sketchy to me anyhow. There are a lot of self proclaimed kings here. People who have never sat the throne, bastards... People who don't know they were fathered by kings, and people who weren't fathered by kings but think that they were.... Mance, is a nobody that named himself king. How does that give him kings blood? This means anyone can say, " I'm the king! The king of this patch of land right here." Does that mean their blood becomes magical king blood? As it's stands right now, the person sitting the Iron throne and holds the actual title of King, does not have any "kings blood".... Yet he is king.

I'm rambling.... Anyhow. The Kings blood concept is very flimsy to me, and annoys me slightly.

[Fred of Ashai]

Random thought. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, and Ned knows it, why does Ned think this?

Yet last night he had dreamt of Rhaegar's children. Lord Tywin had laid the bodies beneath the Iron Throne...

But Tywin never laid Jon's body beneath the Iron Throne.

[J. Stargaryen]

Random thought. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, and Ned knows it, why does Ned think this?

But Tywin never laid Jon's body beneath the Iron Throne.

Zomg. Theory busted.

[Fred of Ashai]

Random thought number two.

Ser Barristan was honor-bound to protect and defend the boy he thought his new king. The old knight would not abandon Joffrey easily.

If Ned really fought Hightower et al to the death over the boy Hightower believed to be his new king, wouldn't' Ned think that Barristan would never abandon Joffrey, instead of thinking that he could talk Barristan around to abandoning Joffrey?

[Fred of Ashai]

Random thought number 3:

He remembered Rhaegar's infant son, the red ruin of his skull...

Can't be Jon, since Jon's skull is intact. And no mention of "one of Rhaegar's infant sons," or "Rhaegar's older son".

Wierd, if R+L=J.

[Fred of Ashai]

Random thought number 4:

Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts?

If Jon isn't a bastard, why does Ned think this?

And if Jon isn't Ned's bastard, why is he thinking about the lusts his gods, the Old Gods, fill men with?

[BearQueen87]

Random thought. If Jon is Rhaegar's son, and Ned knows it, why does Ned think this?

But Tywin never laid Jon's body beneath the Iron Throne.

But what is Ned supposed to think "...and then he though of Jon back at the Wall?" I mean, this is one of THE big mysteries of the series. It's not going to be solved that way.

Random thought number two.

If Ned really fought Hightower et al to the death over the boy Hightower believed to be his new king, wouldn't' Ned think that Barristan would never abandon Joffrey, instead of thinking that he could talk Barristan around to abandoning Joffrey?

Joffery is not the true heir, Stannis is. That's what Ned means. He has to convince Selmy that Stannis is the heir.

Random thought number 3:

Can't be Jon, since Jon's skull is intact. And no mention of "one of Rhaegar's infant sons," or "Rhaegar's older son".

Wierd, if R+L=J.

Baby Aegon had his head based against the wall by The Mountain. That's who Ned is remembering

Random thought number 4:

If Jon isn't a bastard, why does Ned think this?

And if Jon isn't Ned's bastard, why is he thinking about the lusts his gods, the Old Gods, fill men with?

In fact Ned does not think about his lusts. Lusts does not have a specific subject in that sentence. It's "men"--generic. He is also not thinking about his gods, the Old gods. He says "gods" --generic. And of course Jon looks a bit like Ned, Lyanna and Ned were siblings

[Fred of Ashai]

Random thought number 5. If Ned tries to avoid lying when he can, why does he say this when Jon and Robb find the dire wolves:

Come, let us see what mischief my sons have rooted out now.

Why "my sons"? Why not "Robb and Jon," or "the boys"?

[Fred of Ashai]

But what is Ned supposed to think "...and then he though of Jon back at the Wall?" I mean, this is one of THE big mysteries of the series. It's not going to be solved

He could have thought of Princess Elia's children, or Rhaegar and Elia's children.

But no, he thought of Rhaegar's children, and he thinks they are all dead.