Heresy 124

[JNR]

With respect that's nonsense. When Sam says he's finding them in the Annals he's finding them in the Annals - not entries saying they're not there.

With respect that's nonsense. If the Watch was originally chartered to defend the realms of men against the return of the Others... as has been frequently suggested in both show and books... then the total absence of the Others would be an incredibly important thing to the Watch. And it would certainly be noted.

It would be that very absence that, sustained for so very long, leads the Watch to forget obsidian kills Others.

And that absence that leads LC Jeor Mormont to say

We never knew! But we must have known once. The Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose, Tarly. You don't build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men … and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him.

They forgot all that precisely because the Others, in all likelihood, never once showed up, contrary to all initial expectations. What happened instead was that the wildlings grew as a threat to the point where they became the primary and finally the sole focus of the Watch.

[Uldra I]

Yes, and as I have pointed out, it's still possible for event-driven annals to include mentions that aren't encounters.

"Year one. Low on food. No vegetables left. No sightings of Others."

"Year two. Bears killed four rangers. Winter finally over. No sightings of Others."

"Year three. CotF brought us dragonglass daggers. We stashed them in the Dagger Repository. Not sure whom we're supposed to stab with them since the Others have not turned up."

"Year four. Horrible storm. Some thought it meant the return of the Others -- they are said to come with cold and darkness -- but no, it was just a storm."

:agree:

This is impression I got when reading Sam's account of what he had read to Jon. It didn't seem like he was saying they actually saw WWs again. If there were a wildling report here or there through the centuries, couldn't it have been just wild tales to account for missing persons or stolen babes (just examples)? Not saying that individual WWs weren't seen occasionally here and there, but surely, it would have been the rare occasion. It would be interesting to know if and when they stopped mentioning the dragonglass donations or anything at all concerning Others in the annals. It seems to me that our current NW didn't believe they even existed anymore until they actually encountered them.

The only thing i will focus on is your main point,we can't say they never came before the LN,there is a span of time that humans weren't in the land.History doesn't start with humans as i've said the trees are the only avenue that i'm positive we will get an acccurate account from.Given their movements they (wws)are on a cycle so from a human point of view it would be the first time.Its a matter of time and knowledge.

The old tales only discuss the LN WW's, and Old Nan says they came for the first time during the LN. That doesn't mean they weren't here before the LN. To me that only suggests that it was the first time men had seen them. I am more and more convinced in wolfmaid's cyclical theory, but also am inclined to think they can become active between cycles if compelled or maybe even influence a change in the timing of the cycles if needed. Like Sam says, no one seems to be sure whether they come with the cold, or the cold comes with them.

edited to clarify

[JNR]

But that's exactly what he does do. He speaks of them riding dead animals and says that bit's true because the one who killed Small Paul was riding a dead horse. He speaks of dragonglass and remembers how Ser Puddles dies. Jon isn't interested in how or where they came from, he's focussing on how to fight them.

If they come from Craster's wives, and Jon is interested in fighting them, then it would be profoundly important to Jon to stop any more Others from entering the world in this way. Allowing the wives to run around generating more Others would be utterly contrary to his goal. And Sam is smart enough to see that.

[Black Crow]

We have a problem here in that I'm trying to interpret what we're given in the text. You are arguing that the text is either nonsense or can't be read in that way. I've offered you [and any other sceptics] the opportunity/challenge to come up with an alternative overview of the whole business, rather than simply trying to pick holes in bits of it.

So I repeat my challenge; if you disagree with the theory I set out earlier, lets hear yours.

[Uldra I]

...

It would be that very absence that, sustained for so very long, leads the Watch to forget obsidian kills Others.

And that absence that leads LC Jeor Mormont to say

They forgot all that precisely because the Others, in all likelihood, never once showed up, contrary to all initial expectations. What happened instead was that the wildlings grew as a threat to the point where they became the primary and finally the sole focus of the Watch.

:agree: Awesome find on the quote! :bowdown:

[Uldra I]

If they come from Craster's wives, and Jon is interested in fighting them, then it would be profoundly important to Jon to stop any more Others from entering the world in this way. Allowing the wives to run around generating more Others would be utterly contrary to his goal. And Sam is smart enough to see that.

Does anyone else think that Craster's sons are only just one instance of a wildling's babes being taken by WWs... in other words, wouldn't it make sense that if it was happening that way at Craster's it was probably happening all over the far North with other families as well? Imo sterilizing Craster's wives wouldn't have changed much in the way of WW plans.

[JNR]

We have a problem here in that I'm trying to interpret what we're given in the text. You are arguing that the text is either nonsense or can't be read in that way.

Well, typically, I'm not making an exclusive case, like "the Others cannot possibly have come after the Long Night."

I'm simply pointing out that there is no direct evidence of such a thing. No legends or myths of an encounter, no tales passed on by Old Nan, nothing that Ned ever heard that would make him think it happened. Actually, he thinks the opposite, that it never happened.

The closest we get is vague references to the Others having been "mentioned in the annals," or the reference to Night King's wife (often interpreted as an Other).

The annals, I have to say, don't look like very impressive sources to me, based on the information we do know they contain. You have to feel sorry for poor Sam...

By his elbow rested a massive leather-bound copy of Annals of the Black Centaur, Septon Jorquen's exhaustively detailed account of the nine years that Orbert Caswell had served as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. There was a page for each day of his term, every one of which seemed to begin, "Lord Orbert rose at dawn and moved his bowels," except for the last, which said, "Lord Orbert was found to have died during the night."

Granted that these are events, of sorts.

The question becomes: Would Septon Jorquen have reported that Lord Orbert rose at dawn and did not, against all expectation, move his bowels? I think he might, particularly if the moving of his bowels was the entire reason the Watch was created (as has so often been surmised).

If you confidently expect Others, and that's why you build a giant Wall, bake magic wards into it, create a military order, etc... and then Others don't appear... it seems to me that that's notable.

[JNR]

Does anyone else think that Craster's sons are only just one instance of a wildlings babes being taken by WWs... in other words, wouldn't it make sense that if it was happening that way at Craster's it was probably happening all over the far North with other families as well? Imo sterilizing Craster's wives wouldn't have changed much in the way of WW plans.

Ygritte says Craster bears "a heavy curse." I interpret this as a reference to his mass kinslaying. If there are others like Craster in this department, Ygritte doesn't mention it and we don't hear of it in any other way.

Here's another way to look at this. Suppose Craster is right, and his offerings have made him safe from the Others, and that's why he doesn't need to join Mance, unlike the rest of the free folk.

The clear implication is that the rest of the free folk are not safe, because they haven't been making such offerings.

Ergo, they should have been murdered by the Others en masse, during the many decades Craster has been leaving his sons in the woods and the rest of the free folk have not. But whoops... mass slaughter of the free folk by the Others in the previous few decades definitely never happened.

[Black Crow]

You're evading the challenge.

I'm interpreting the evidence we're given to create a global theory of what's happening and why. You're disagreeing with that interpretation on grounds which I consider slender and motivated by a fundamental unwillingness to accept what the evidence points to, but you decline to offer an alternative theory.

So come on, lets hear what you think is going on north of the Wall. :cool4:

[Black Crow]

Does anyone else think that Craster's sons are only just one instance of a wildlings babes being taken by WWs... in other words, wouldn't it make sense that if it was happening that way at Craster's it was probably happening all over the far North with other families as well? Imo sterilizing Craster's wives wouldn't have changed much in the way of WW plans.

We obviously don't know what's happening all over the vastness of the lands beyond the Wall. There may be other Crasters, but I think Ygritte's wording is significant in that she doesn't say he's accursed or a kin-slayer, but says he "bears a heavy curse", which suggests that its something which he has inherited, that there's something in his bloodline.

Something we've discussed in the past is that story of where he came from; that he was supposedly the son of a man of the Nights Watch and that his mother tried to get him through the Wall on that account but was chased off.

This is actually paralleled by Gilly's story. After Craster is murdered she and Sam are urged to flee with the babe and get it somewhere warm. Its not Sam's son of course but some think it might be and effectively he becomes the father of whichever child goes with them on the boat.

So did the same happen with Craster and his mother. Did she try to do a Gilly and get him somewhere warm by claiming his father was a man of the Watch?

[Uldra I]

We obviously don't know what's happening all over the vastness of the lands beyond the Wall. There may be other Crasters, but I think Ygritte's wording is significant in that she doesn't say he's accursed or a kin-slayer, but says he "bears a heavy curse", which suggests that its something which he has inherited, that there's something in his bloodline.

Something we've discussed in the past is that story of where he came from; that he was supposedly the son of a man of the Nights Watch and that his mother tried to get him through the Wall on that account but was chased off.

This is actually paralleled by Gilly's story. After Craster is murdered she and Sam are urged to flee with the babe and get it somewhere warm. Its not Sam's son of course but some think it might be and effectively he becomes the father of whichever child goes with them on the boat.

So did the same happen with Craster and his mother. Did she try to do a Gilly and get him somewhere warm by claiming his father was a man of the Watch?

Wow... never made those connections before. Thanks for explaining :) Now I have to reorganize my thinking about Craster. :P

eta: Thanks also for your explanation too, JNR :)

[Uldra I]

Ygritte says Craster bears "a heavy curse." I interpret this as a reference to his mass kinslaying. If there are others like Craster in this department, Ygritte doesn't mention it and we don't hear of it in any other way.

Here's another way to look at this. Suppose Craster is right, and his offerings have made him safe from the Others, and that's why he doesn't need to join Mance, unlike the rest of the free folk.

The clear implication is that the rest of the free folk are not safe, because they haven't been making such offerings.

Ergo, they should have been murdered by the Others en masse, during the many decades Craster has been leaving his sons in the woods and the rest of the free folk have not. But whoops... mass slaughter of the free folk by the Others in the previous few decades definitely never happened.

Oh... also, in addition to the thanks, a thought struck me that the Craster story is so full of irony. Not only was he not protected from anything by worshipping and sacrificing to the Cold Gods, but he was murdered, and his entire legacy destroyed by NW men who are sworn to protect the realms of men. Yep sure does seem like Craster carried some kind of curse.

eta: now he is as big a mystery to me as the NK

[Black Crow]

now he is as big a mystery to me as the NK

Well there is a perfectly reasonable suspicion that the Nights King was the "first" Craster.

[alienarea]

We obviously don't know what's happening all over the vastness of the lands beyond the Wall. There may be other Crasters, but I think Ygritte's wording is significant in that she doesn't say he's accursed or a kin-slayer, but says he "bears a heavy curse", which suggests that its something which he has inherited, that there's something in his bloodline.

Something we've discussed in the past is that story of where he came from; that he was supposedly the son of a man of the Nights Watch and that his mother tried to get him through the Wall on that account but was chased off.

This is actually paralleled by Gilly's story. After Craster is murdered she and Sam are urged to flee with the babe and get it somewhere warm. Its not Sam's son of course but some think it might be and effectively he becomes the father of whichever child goes with them on the boat.

So did the same happen with Craster and his mother. Did she try to do a Gilly and get him somewhere warm by claiming his father was a man of the Watch?

Agree with the curse being inherited. No proof, but I assume it comes from the maternal line of either the Night King or Joramun.

[Uldra I]

Agree with the curse being inherited. No proof, but I assume it comes from the maternal line of either the Night King or Joramun.

Why Joramun?

[Urrax2]

... So I repeat my challenge; if you disagree with the theory I set out earlier, lets hear yours.

It's not the function of cross-examination to offer alternative interpretations, but to test the correctness of the one being offered.

[Uldra I]

It's not the function of cross-examination to offer alternative interpretations, but to test the correctness of the one being offered.

I detect lawyerliness here ;). Have to admit I'd love to read JNR's thoughts on a big picture in the North. I'd also love to read yours and almost anyone else's for that matter. :cheers:

[Black Crow]

I detect lawyerliness here ;). Have to admit I'd love to read JNR's thoughts on a big picture in the North. I'd also love to read yours and almost anyone else's for that matter. :cheers:

Exactly. An opinion is offered in that "cross-examination" as to the correctness of an interpretation, but we're not being offered an evidence-based rebuttal. A discussion should be more than simply disagreeing with a position.

If the white walkers are not Craster's sons, who are they and what is the evidence? Picking holes in an argument is easy, doing so without offering an alternative argument is lazy and ultimately dishonest.

[Black Crow]

Why Joramun?

Good question. I await with interest.

[Uldra I]

Exactly. An opinion is offered in that "cross-examination" as to the correctness of an interpretation, but we're not being offered an evidence-based rebuttal. A discussion should be more than simply disagreeing with a position.

If the white walkers are not Craster's sons, who are they and what is the evidence? Picking holes in an argument is easy, doing so without offering an alternative argument is lazy and ultimately dishonest.

with all due respect, and that is a considerable amount IMO, JNR has been offering some textual rebuttal. I respect everyone's views on this thread and as it happens I tend to agree w/JNR more often than not. I simply think it'd be awesome to have everyone who has a big overarching theory about the north to post their thoughts. The lawyer comment was just an elbow at Urrax for fun, guessing he must be involved in law someway.