Robb Could Have Won

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Mostly. Not his 600, but him starting trouble with Manderly and Hornwood as well as taking out Bran+Rickon+Ser Rodrik+some additional leadership at Winterfell

Well the Ironborn helped take out Bran and Rickon. The Ironborn could have reinforced Winterfell, Asha just didn't allow Theon to do it. It is quite possible that the same damage could have been done by the Ironborn without the interference of Ramsay.

Robb headed North as soon as he heard Moat Cailin and Winterfell was taken, the Ironborn did both. There was no Raven or message to Manderly, Robb knew he had to bring his army home to deal with the problem.

[Sir Lee knot]

Why did he not do this? Why was he abandoning the Riverlands and taking all his troops North with him, even planning on taking the 4,000 Frey troops to help take Moat Cailin if all it took is a Raven to Manderly?

Either he, and the Freys, were needed North or Robb was scared of fighting the Lannister-Tyreel alliance and ran back home.

Maybe Robb didn't know. Maybe he didn't realize how many men he had left behind and maybe he didn't know how easy it would be to boot out the Ironborn. Only we as readers know this but it's likely Robb never did.

I think Robb suspected something was not right in the North - How does WF fall so easily?? How did Rodrik's army so easily lose?? How did the North lose to the IB so quickly(something which should be near impossible )?? Maybe he felt his own presence was required to root out the truth. Maybe at this point he didnt trust all the Lords he had left in the North

and this.

But just to make it clear. He wasn't abandoning the Riverlands. The Riverlands were going to rally more men of their own to at least hold off until Robb gets back with reinforcements.

[Barty]

Also food would be a problem for any invading army. Jaime's army in AFFC was already suffering from a shortage and its size was only about 5-7k. How on earth would a 100k army survive while invading the riverlands?? We know from Jaime's talk with the BlackFish that the West also has a shortage of food.

The entire expedition would have to be funded, manned and fed by the the Tyrells who we know have no problem with a free North. How many defeats would it take for Mace to give up the entire idea??

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well the Ironborn helped take out Bran and Rickon. The Ironborn could have reinforced Winterfell, Asha just didn't allow Theon to do it. It is quite possible that the same damage could have been done by the Ironborn without the interference of Ramsay.

That would still leave Ser Rodrik alive, with all the authority the castellan of the North wields. He could and would settle these issues.

Robb headed North as soon as he heard Moat Cailin and Winterfell was taken, the Ironborn did both. There was no Raven or message to Manderly, Robb knew he had to bring his army home to deal with the problem.

Not his army. His person. The only remaining person with the authority to solve the issues with the civil war and all, with Ser Rodrik and Maester Luwin dead, Bran and Rickon presumed dead and Manderly and Bolton engaged in that muddy affair.

[Sir Lee knot]

Also food would be a problem for any invading army. Jaime's army in AFFC was already suffering from a shortage and its size was only about 5-7k. How on earth would a 100k army survive while invading the riverlands?? We know from Jaime's talk with the BlackFish that the West also has a shortage of food.

The entire expedition would have to be funded, manned and fed by the the Tyrells who we know have no problem with a free North. How many defeats would it take for Mace to give up the entire idea??

On top of everything else. Especially this!

Maybe the Tyrells can support 80,000 soldiers in the Reach but that 80k army would start eating each other in a month of trying to invade the north.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Maybe Robb didn't know. Maybe he didn't realize how many men he had left behind and maybe he didn't know how easy it would be to boot out the Ironborn. Only we as readers know this but it's likely Robb never did.

I think Robb has a better understanding of the Norths military. We see in the books that it wasnt easy, had the Ironborn

But just to make it clear. He wasn't abandoning the Riverlands. The Riverlands were going to rally more men of their own to at least hold off until Robb gets back with reinforcements.

You don't know that. A few months after the Red Wedding the Brackens were attacking the Blackwoods to win favor with the Crown, at the siege of Riverrun there are 7-8 Riverlands Houses helping the Lannisters, Seagard had been taken by the Freys while Darry had passed over to Lancel Lannister and Randyll Tarly was busy repairing and ruling Maidenpool and Harrenhal is under Lannsiter control with Bonifer the Hasty becoming the Castellan while Littlefinger was in the Vale.

The Riverlands would have fallen even if Robb had lived, they just don't have the unity or the manpower to hold of a sustained attack from an enemy. Robb would have been gone months, if he was quick, by that time the majority of the Riverlords would have sworn themselves to the Crown.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That would still leave Ser Rodrik alive, with all the authority the castellan of the North wields. He could and would settle these issues.

He might have, he also might have failed his responsibility like he actually did in the books.

[Wolf's Pack]

I thought his aim was to take Casterly Rock.

That only happened in the TV-Series

[Bright Blue Eyes]

You don't know that. A few months after the Red Wedding the Brackens were attacking the Blackwoods to win favor with the Crown, at the siege of Riverrun there are 7-8 Riverlands Houses helping the Lannisters, Seagard had been taken by the Freys while Darry had passed over to Lancel Lannister and Randyll Tarly was busy repairing and ruling Maidenpool and Harrenhal is under Lannsiter control with Bonifer the Hasty becoming the Castellan while Littlefinger was in the Vale.

The Riverlands would have fallen even if Robb had lived, they just don't have the unity or the manpower to hold of a sustained attack from an enemy. Robb would have been gone months, if he was quick, by that time the majority of the Riverlords would have sworn themselves to the Crown.

The important difference: the Red Wedding and a ton of hostages.

He might have, he also might have failed his responsibility like he actually did in the books.

Theon wouldn't come close enough to assassinate him and obliterate his core of an army. Only a traitor could.

[Sir Lee knot]

I think Robb has a better understanding of the Norths military. We see in the books that it wasnt easy, had the Ironborn

You don't know that. A few months after the Red Wedding the Brackens were attacking the Blackwoods to win favor with the Crown, at the siege of Riverrun there are 7-8 Riverlands Houses helping the Lannisters, Seagard had been taken by the Freys while Darry had passed over to Lancel Lannister and Randyll Tarly was busy repairing and ruling Maidenpool and Harrenhal is under Lannsiter control with Bonifer the Hasty becoming the Castellan while Littlefinger was in the Vale.

The Riverlands would have fallen even if Robb had lived, they just don't have the unity or the manpower to hold of a sustained attack from an enemy. Robb would have been gone months, if he was quick, by that time the majority of the Riverlords would have sworn themselves to the Crown.

I'm just offering up a reason why. But we know that Robb did leave behind about 20k soldiers. And the Ironborn would have been really easy to take care of.

Most of the Riverlords would have never defected. They only did after RW when they faced total destruction and no longer had any reason to fight.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The important difference: the Red Wedding and a ton of hostages.

Its not that important. How long do you think he would be back in the North? Taking back Moat Cailin, Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and other area's. Fixing the North and then raising more food for a return South, if that was possible so late in the season. He would be gone for a long period of time.

The Riverands would not have held out indefinitely.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

About six months, including the return south. Thats very managable for Edmure.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I'm just offering up a reason why. But we know that Robb did leave behind about 20k soldiers. And the Ironborn would have been really easy to take care of.

Why do you keep on saying that? Clearly they would not have been easy to deal with, as shown in the books.

Dagon Greyjoy during the era of Aerys I was a thorn in most of the West coast sides, raiding Little Dosk and the Arbor in the Reach, the Fair isles in they Westerlands and the Starks were gathering sellswords like Dunc help defend themselves. If they can do that damage to three regions the it stands to reason they are a credible threat to one single region, one that has lost a large amount of its military already.

The Ironborn were not an easy problem, they were a hard one. Robb was relying on 4,000 Freys to help him, this suggests that he thought it was far from easy.

Most of the Riverlords would have never defected. They only did after RW when they faced total destruction and no longer had any reason to fight.

The Riverlords have been with Robb a matter of months, of course they would defect. They don't even know if Robb is coming back and the longer each Riverlord takes to defect the more his lands and power decrease when the inevitable happened. Just look at the Brackens and the Blackwoods, defecting early meant an increase in lands while defecting late meant a decrease.

[joluoto2]

He could have won indpendence for the North, by holding the North, fortifying Moat Cailin and don't bend the knee. The Riverlands.... he could never hold the Riverlands, and his main burden was trying to secure freedom for the Riverlanders.

[joluoto2]

Maybe Robb didn't know. Maybe he didn't realize how many men he had left behind and maybe he didn't know how easy it would be to boot out the Ironborn. Only we as readers know this but it's likely Robb never did.

and this.

But just to make it clear. He wasn't abandoning the Riverlands. The Riverlands were going to rally more men of their own to at least hold off until Robb gets back with reinforcements.

The Riverlands defences would quickly melt away once a larger Iron Throne army shows up. And with houses like the Freys and the Brackens not that trustworthy, I could see the Riverlands falling very quickly.

[Barty]

Its not that important. How long do you think he would be back in the North? Taking back Moat Cailin, Winterfell, Deepwood Motte and other area's. Fixing the North and then raising more food for a return South, if that was possible so late in the season. He would be gone for a long period of time.

The Riverands would not have held out indefinitely.

Again you are assuming the Lannisters/Tyrells will march on the riverlands the moment he goes North. Which is basically out of the question since they cant leave SE and Dragonstone untaken(both are too close to the capital). How long(and how many men) do you think it will take for them to take both castles?? Months(and thousands) at the least.

Also dont forget the Riverlands are in the capable hands of the BlackFish - not a man to be underestimated.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

About six months, including the return south. Thats very managable for Edmure.

Maybe for Edmure, and even that is debatable as Riverrun would have been taken in less than a month by Jaime had Robb not come to the rescue and the Blackfish lasts a few months by kicking out all the smallfolk and then burning all their crops before Winter.

Many other riverlords would want an end to the fighting while they still had lands worth saving. If they were that commited they would have carried on fighting after the Red Wedding.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The Ironborn were not an easy problem, they were a hard one. Robb was relying on 4,000 Freys to help him, this suggests that he thought it was far from easy.

No. Not 4,000 Freys. Their god-damned bridge.

The Riverlords have been with Robb a matter of months, of course they would defect. They don't even know if Robb is coming back and the longer each Riverlord takes to defect the more his lands and power decrease when the inevitable happened. Just look at the Brackens and the Blackwoods, defecting early meant an increase in lands while defecting late meant a decrease.

Of course they wouldn't defect. They know he's coming back. The Lannisters didn't become their best friends.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Many other riverlords would want an end to the fighting while they still had lands worth saving. If they were that commited they would have carried on fighting after the Red Wedding.

With either themselves or their heirs in the Frey's tender care and nobody returning? Comparable those situations ain't.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Again you are assuming the Lannisters/Tyrells will march on the riverlands the moment he goes North. Which is basically out of the question since they cant leave SE and Dragonstone untaken(both are too close to the capital). How long(and how many men) do you think it will take for them to take both castles?? Months(and thousands) at the least.

Also dont forget the Riverlands are in the capable hands of the BlackFish - not a man to be underestimated.

Where is Jaime and the Lannister army during AFFC? In the Riverlands.Where is Tarly and his troops during AFFC? In the Riverlands. Its not an assumption, its what happened after Robb left.