Robb Could Have Won

[the conquering bastard 25]

I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong. Wasn't six kingdom. Just sounds easier I suppose. However, the Andals invasions still sounds like it had aspects of a religious war and they changed a lot of the culture of the kingdoms, if not they would still be speaking the old tongue, old gods(not proclaiming the 7's trimuph over the old gods) and the North and South wouldn' t look and feel so culturely different.

Yet the flip side of that coin is what choice did they have? Bend the knee or die maybe. It was just easier to assimilate. It wouldn't be called an invasion if it was peaceful. I know that England has a rich and bloody history starting with when Rome invaded and conquered. So they might of eventually assimilated but the picture in both cases was the there was blood shed and took hundreds of years to get them to submit, all but the north of course.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong. Wasn't six kingdom. Just sounds easier I suppose. However, the Andals invasions still sounds like it had aspects of a religious war and they changed a lot of the culture of the kingdoms, if not they would still be speaking the old tongue, old gods(not proclaiming the 7's trimuph over the old gods) and the North and South wouldn' t look and feel so culturely different.

Yet the flip side of that coin is what choice did they have? Bend the knee or die maybe. It was just easier to assimilate. It wouldn't be called an invasion if it was peaceful. I know that England has a rich and bloody history starting with when Rome invaded and conquered. So they might of eventually assimilated but the picture in both cases was the there was blood shed and took hundreds of years to get them to submit, all but the north of course.

House Royce quickly bent the knee, but about the holy wars, remember they telling the story from a modern view when practically everybody has converted, I think they were putting a twist on history. I cant help but think the same happen with the crusades, cause I got the instinct impression that it was a land grab in the guise of a religious war.

[the conquering bastard 25]

However it started the outcome is the same. If the Andals went to Westeros under the guise of a religous war to escape the Dragonlords and it was just a power/land grab they still changed the face of the West. They still did like most every other conquering force a total eradication of the culture of the subjecated people. Stripping them of their histories, language, art, music, religion and turning it to their way or the highway. Most wars are never what the victor describes them as. Who wants to be remembered as the greedy king whom wasn't happy with the lands they ruled and wanted someone else's shit and money? They have to sell this meal to those that are going to have help them do the conquering and well religion is always a good selling point. As everyone religion is the true faith and all the others are wrong and must be put down or destroyed. What man doesn't understand it seeks to destroy.

House Royce weren't kings. So what does it matter about them bending the knee? The Andals still had to kill the last Mountain King at the top of the Giants Lance.

[Frey Pie]

How are the 5 kingdoms ever going to act in concert against Robb, regardless of who wins the battle for the IT?

The way things went Tywin won the IT. But he had uncertain allies with LF and the Tyrells. The Vale will not support them with men. The Dornish will not support them with men. The Greyjoys are an independent kingdom and Tywin will not work with them unless balon comes back into the fold. The Stormlands are also uncertain allies to the throne, having been bled quite a bit and having a divided homeland with storms end still in rebel baratheon hands. Stannis also holds dragonstone and retains some power. Can Tywin overcome all this? At the least Tywin has to send armies to storms end, dragonstone and the riverlands (and possibly the reach with euron coming into the picture). All in all the 7 k's won't be reunited in anyway quickly, even should renly take the throne (still has a number of regions against him including the west now)

[Sir Lee knot]

How are the 5 kingdoms ever going to act in concert against Robb, regardless of who wins the battle for the IT?

The way things went Tywin won the IT. But he had uncertain allies with LF and the Tyrells. The Vale will not support them with men. The Dornish will not support them with men. The Greyjoys are an independent kingdom and Tywin will not work with them unless balon comes back into the fold. The Stormlands are also uncertain allies to the throne, having been bled quite a bit and having a divided homeland with storms end still in rebel baratheon hands. Stannis also holds dragonstone and retains some power. Can Tywin overcome all this? At the least Tywin has to send armies to storms end, dragonstone and the riverlands (and possibly the reach with euron coming into the picture). All in all the 7 k's won't be reunited in anyway quickly, even should renly take the throne (still has a number of regions against him including the west now)

That's the point a lot of these numskulls can't grasp. It's not like some massive 100,000 person army is marching up the Kingsroad. That army has to fight off at least three different formidable opponents at any given time.

The only person who could conceivably conquer all of Westeros is Dany because of the three dragons. But she is far away and may not even make it to Westeros with all of them...

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That's the point a lot of these numskulls can't grasp. It's not like some massive 100,000 person army is marching up the Kingsroad. That army has to fight off at least three different formidable opponents at any given time.

The only person who could conceivably conquer all of Westeros is Dany because of the three dragons. But she is far away and may not even make it to Westeros with all of them...

They wouldn't need a 100k men. Robb left with 20k soldiers of which 3,500. Back in the North we know that 2k were killed in the battle of Winterfell, there would have been other casualties like in the Northern civil war on the Hornwood lands and the Ironborns attacks on various settlements.

The North has lost half its military power. It is not going to take anywhere near 100k.

[Sir Lee knot]

They wouldn't need a 100k men. Robb left with 20k soldiers of which 3,500. Back in the North we know that 2k were killed in the battle of Winterfell, there would have been other casualties like in the Northern civil war on the Hornwood lands and the Ironborns attacks on various settlements.

The North has lost half its military power. It is not going to take anywhere near 100k.

That's where your wrong bucko.

Robb has about 20k men in the south. In the north he has at least 15k but it's probably closer to 20 or 25k. The reason he couldn't bring them all down is because it would have taken longer and he needed to get to Riverrun quickly. The Riverlands also have a lot more soldiers in reserve but they could never get organized with Tywin's quick assault and all. But Tywin going back to Kinglsanding after the Black Water would allow time for the Riverlands to gather more soldiers.

All Robb has to do is send a Raven to Manderly telling him to rally the rest of the northern troops to drive out the Ironborn and Wildlings. Which won't be to hard considering Wildlings are on the other side of the wall and Stannis beat them with only 1,500 knights. And the Ironborn are pulling out of the north anyways. When that's all done Manderly can bring that army south. So Robb's total remaining strength is easily 60,000.

But again. Robb would likely never have to take anywhere close to 100,000 at one time. At the max maybe 50,000 but probably more like 30,000 because the Crown has to deal with Euron and Aegon as well.

[Bernard the Just]

True, but one way or the another one king would rule, and the south can easily muster more ships and men given time.

Would the South stay together? I can see a domino effect if the North actually gained independence.

[KING-OF-WINTERFELL]

That's where your wrong bucko.

Robb has about 20k men in the south. In the north he has at least 15k but it's probably closer to 20 or 25k. The reason he couldn't bring them all down is because it would have taken longer and he needed to get to Riverrun quickly. The Riverlands also have a lot more soldiers in reserve but they could never get organized with Tywin's quick assault and all. But Tywin going back to Kinglsanding after the Black Water would allow time for the Riverlands to gather more soldiers.

All Robb has to do is send a Raven to Manderly telling him to rally the rest of the northern troops to drive out the Ironborn and Wildlings. Which won't be to hard considering Wildlings are on the other side of the wall and Stannis beat them with only 1,500 knights. And the Ironborn are pulling out of the north anyways. When that's all done Manderly can bring that army south. So Robb's total remaining strength is easily 60,000.

But again. Robb would likely never have to take anywhere close to 100,000 at one time. At the max maybe 50,000 but probably more like 30,000 because the Crown has to deal with Euron and Aegon as well.

Yea, but the same logic you apply with the reach you have to apply to robb. If the reach can only supply less than there half of their max strength and that is drain but other threat same goes with Robb. Say robs strength is 60,000 max the he's deployable strength into a theatre should closer to 40,000-45 cause lords aren't gonna leave their holdfast defenceless, add on to guard against other threats say Ironborn and wildlings 30-35,000.

So yea he may still have a chance, but he still wont be going against the tyrells alone. He still got to contend with Lannister who would summon as much of their strength as possible to finally get rid of robb.

[Frey Pie]

They wouldn't need a 100k men. Robb left with 20k soldiers of which 3,500. Back in the North we know that 2k were killed in the battle of Winterfell, there would have been other casualties like in the Northern civil war on the Hornwood lands and the Ironborns attacks on various settlements.

The North has lost half its military power. It is not going to take anywhere near 100k.

The west has also lost quite a lot of its military strength, while the reach hasn't truly been tested. Robb's already pulled off large victories with smaller numbers. History is littered with examples of smaller armies defeating larger. Now I'm not saying Robb def would have won but you can't say he would have lost for def either. Even after Tywin controlled KL he knew Robb was going to make it too costly to take head on and arranged for assassination instead. This is Tywin who is overly confident and once viewed Robb as a pup to be spanked in half a battle

[The Dragons Hand]

Potentially, that's why it was so tragic.

[Frey Pie]

Yea, but the same logic you apply with the reach you have to apply to robb. If the reach can only supply less than there half of their max strength and that is drain but other threat same goes with Robb. Say robs strength is 60,000 max the he's deployable strength into a theatre should closer to 40,000-45 cause lords aren't gonna leave their holdfast defenceless, add on to guard against other threats say Ironborn and wildlings 30-35,000.

So yea he may still have a chance, but he still wont be going against the tyrells alone. He still got to contend with Lannister who would summon as much of their strength as possible to finally get rid of robb.

The Lannisters have lost a lot of men. Your looking at 8-10000 at Oxcross and 11000 at the WWs and the Camps. Add to that the men Robb killed on his raids in the west and the men Tywin lost over a number of battles, desertion, men lost in forced marches etc and your looking at the Lannisters after loosing around 25000 men. They may be able to raise a other army at home but it won't be as large as Stafford's force at Oxcross and even less well prepared likely.

[The Wolves]

But why would the South band together to take the North?

Honestly who cares?

[I'm the Party Pooper]

But why would the South band together to take the North?

Honestly who cares?

An empire can't allow any of its parts declare independence and go unpunished, otherwise next thing that's going to happen is that it will have more regions declaring independence to not pay taxes back to the central power.

Unless the south itself wants to disband the kingdom.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yea, but the same logic you apply with the reach you have to apply to robb. If the reach can only supply less than there half of their max strength and that is drain but other threat same goes with Robb. Say robs strength is 60,000 max the he's deployable strength into a theatre should closer to 40,000-45 cause lords aren't gonna leave their holdfast defenceless, add on to guard against other threats say Ironborn and wildlings 30-35,000.

So yea he may still have a chance, but he still wont be going against the tyrells alone. He still got to contend with Lannister who would summon as much of their strength as possible to finally get rid of robb.

That's the strength of the North. Add the strength of the Riverlords and those do deploy close to home.

The Lannisters have lost two thirds of their strength. Tywin's own, weakened army is basically the entire rest of what they once had.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

All Robb has to do is send a Raven to Manderly telling him to rally the rest of the northern troops to drive out the Ironborn and Wildlings. Which won't be to hard considering Wildlings are on the other side of the wall and Stannis beat them with only 1,500 knights. And the Ironborn are pulling out of the north anyways. When that's all done Manderly can bring that army south. So Robb's total remaining strength is easily 60,000.

Why did he not do this? Why was he abandoning the Riverlands and taking all his troops North with him, even planning on taking the 4,000 Frey troops to help take Moat Cailin if all it took is a Raven to Manderly?

Either he, and the Freys, were needed North or Robb was scared of fighting the Lannister-Tyreel alliance and ran back home.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Why did he not do this? Why was he abandoning the Riverlands and taking all his troops North with him, even planning on taking the 4,000 Frey troops to help take Moat Cailin if all it took is a Raven to Manderly?

Either he, and the Freys, were needed North or Robb was scared of fighting the Lannister-Tyreel alliance and ran back home.

Because Ramsay.

That's basically the reason for all what went wrong in the North.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Because Ramsay.

That's basically the reason for all what went wrong in the North.

Ramsay and his 600 was all that was wrong with the North?

Then Sir Lee Knot is clearly mistaken in his belief that all it took was a raven to solve the Norths problems.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ramsay and his 600 was all that was wrong with the North?

Then Sir Lee Knot is clearly mistaken in his belief that all it took was a raven to solve the Norths problems.

Mostly. Not his 600, but him starting trouble with Manderly and Hornwood as well as taking out Bran+Rickon+Ser Rodrik+some additional leadership at Winterfell

[Barty]

Why did he not do this? Why was he abandoning the Riverlands and taking all his troops North with him, even planning on taking the 4,000 Frey troops to help take Moat Cailin if all it took is a Raven to Manderly?

Either he, and the Freys, were needed North or Robb was scared of fighting the Lannister-Tyreel alliance and ran back home.

I think Robb suspected something was not right in the North - How does WF fall so easily?? How did Rodrik's army so easily lose?? How did the North lose to the IB so quickly(something which should be near impossible )?? Maybe he felt his own presence was required to root out the truth. Maybe at this point he didnt trust all the Lords he had left in the North